Pitbulls. Do they have a bad rep?

sthomson said:
I am continually shocked at the number of pet owners who do not train their dogs - even the bare minimum of training, like bite inhibition and safe leash behaviors. A poorly-trained pit bull is of course more dangerous than a poorly-trained Boston Terrier, but that doesn't mean that all pit bulls should be feared, or that all pit bulls are dangerous.

I was bitten by a half-pit bull once. Do I blame the dog? No, I blame its lazy owners who could not provide proper training and exercise.

Edited to add: If anyone thinks that dog aggression is limited to larger breeds, they should watch a few episodes of "It's Me or the Dog" - that show features highly aggressive smaller dogs on a regular basis. It also makes the point that in many cases, aggression is a symptom of fear and anxiety. Positive reinforcement training teaches a dog to trust its handler in situations where it would otherwise act with fear.
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The most vicious dog I've ever seen was a friends Chihuahua, fortunately it was too small to do any real damage, though any fingers left dangling within reach we not left so for long...
 
Steelmage said:
I had a big Rottweiler that thought he was a puppy. At Pet stores people would come up to him and pet him, he would let it happen, or give them a sad puppy face to get treats from them. He was not a full Rottweiler, he was mixed with another type of dog. He weighted like 150 lbs..
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My cousin had a dog exactly like that, she was half rotty half lab.
 
They can have my pitbull when they pry it from my cold, dead, well-chewed fingers.

Actually, I have three pits, two of which were born in this home. They are the sweetest dogs I have ever had the pleasure of caring for.

The only time I have ever needed a dog-related trip to the emergency room was thanks to a friend's Bichon-Frisse. 14 stitches, and all I was trying to do was stroke it.

V.
 
Toke said:
Different breeds are supposed to have different mentalities, they also come with reputations, which gets them picked by owners with specific mentalities.
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Exactly.

And the statistics cited earlier can't tease apart the nature vs. nurture question.
 
Steelmage said:
Went to the site, well I learned something today.
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Yes, that people will do misleading things. That pit bull in the picture is an adolescent; also referred to as a puppy. Secondly, the term "pit bull" is applied to several different breeds here in the US, and the American Pit Bull Terrier is not the only breed to carry the appellation "pit bull".

The various breeds that are referred to as pit bulls all have one thing in common: they were bred for gamenessWP.

Game or Gameness is a quality of fighting dogs or working terriers that are selectively bred and conditioned from a very early age to develop traits of eagerness despite the threat of substantive injury. Dogs displaying this trait can also be described as persevering, ready and willing, full of fight, spirited, or plucky.[1]

In dog fighting breeds gameness is valued as it gives the dog the ability to maintain the attack in baiting, despite ripped flesh, dehydration, exhaustion or broken bones. As one writer describes it, "Game is the dog that won't quit fighting, the dog that'll die in the ring, the dog that'll fight with two broken legs." The scope and method of training to develop a game dog varies dramatically depending on the level and experience of the dog-fighter. The most famous "gamebred" breed of dog is the American Pit Bull Terrier.
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The 3 breeds referred to as pit bulls were all bred from terriers and bull dogs. Terriers were bred for gameness in fighting rats, badgers, etc. down in their holes (and for fighting other dogs). Bulldogs (the old bulldogs, not the current breed that goes by that name) were bred for bull baiting (and fighting other dogs). The pit bull breeds are breeds that were created by crossing bulldogs with terriers to produce a large, strong, aggressive, game dog that was good at dog fighting.

PitbullWP
Pit Bull is a term commonly used to describe several breeds of dog in the molosser family.

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American Pit Bull Terrier
Main article: American Pit Bull Terrier

American Pit Bull TerrierThe American Pit Bull Terrier is the product of interbreeding between terriers and a breed of bulldogs to produce a dog that combined the gameness of the terrier with the strength and athleticism of the bulldog.[8] These dogs were initially bred in England, Ireland, and Scotland, and arrived in the United States with immigrants from these countries. In the United States, these dogs were used as catch dogs for semi-wild cattle and hogs, to hunt, to drive livestock, and as family companions;[8] however, some were selectively bred for their fighting prowess,[9] and starting in the early 20th century, they began to replace the bull terrier as the "dog of choice" for dog fighting in the United States.[10][11]

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American pit bull terriers today successfully fill the role of companion dog, police dog,[13][14][15] and therapy dog;[16] however, terriers in general have a higher tendency towards dog aggression[17] and American Pit Bull Terriers constitute the majority of dogs used for illegal dog fighting in the United States.[18] In addition, law enforcement organizations report these dogs are used for other nefarious purposes, such as guarding illegal narcotics operations,[19] use against the police,[20] and as weapons.[21]

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American Staffordshire Terrier
Main article: American Staffordshire Terrier

American Staffordshire TerrierAlthough the early ancestors of this breed came from England, the development of the American Staffordshire Terrier is the story of a truly American breed. This type of dog was instrumental in the success of farmers and settlers who developed this country. They were used for general farm work, guarding the homestead, and general companionship.

A number of the early ancestors were also developed for the "sport" of dog fighting. The extraordinary vitality of this breed is a direct result of breeding for successful fighting dogs.[26]

Until the early part of the 19th century the Bulldog was bred with great care in England for the purpose of baiting bulls. Pictures from as late as 1870 represent the Bulldog of that day more like the present-day American Staffordshire Terrier than like the present-day Bulldog.

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Staffordshire Bull Terrier
Main article: Staffordshire Bull Terrier

Staffordshire Bull TerrierThe Staffordshire Bull Terrier had its beginnings in England many centuries ago when the bulldog and Mastiff were used for the sports of bull-baiting and bear-baiting; in the Elizabethan era, breeders produced large dogs for these sports but later on the 100–120 pound animal gave way to a small, more agile breed of up to 90 pounds.[28]

The sport of dog fighting gained popularity in England in the early 19th century and a smaller, faster dog was developed. It was called by names such as "Bulldog Terrier" and "Bull and Terrier". The Bulldog at that time was larger than the modern-day English Bulldog we know today, weighing about 60 pounds. This dog was crossed with a small native terrier, related to the present-day Manchester Terrier, to produce the Staffordshire Bull Terrier weighing on average between 30 and 45 pounds.[28]

James Hinks, in about 1860, crossed the Old Pit Bull Terrier, now known as the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and produced the all-white English Bull Terrier. The Kennel Club in Great Britain recognized the Bull Terrier in the last quarter of the 19th century, but the Staffordshire Bull Terrier's reputation as a fighting dog was such that The Kennel Club did not recognize the breed until 1935, a century after the sport of dog fighting became illegal in Great Britain under the Cruelty to Animals Act 1835.[28]

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Despite the lack of a physiological "jaw locking" mechanism, pit bull-type dogs often exhibit "bite, hold, and shake" behavior and refuse to release when biting,[19][37] so some pit bull rescue organizations and advocacy groups recommend owners of pit bull-type dogs carry a "break stick" to lever their dog's jaws open if it bites a person or animal.[17][38]
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I'm not sure why people find it so hard to believe that dogs that were specifically bred for gameness over dozens of generations would be more aggressive, and when they attacked would produce far higher fatalities than dogs that were not bred specifically for those traits.

I was reading an article that was dealing with breeding wild animals for tameness (with the result that the animals developed "domesticated" traits like floppy ears and changes in coloration - the real point of the article) and one of the studies the article talked about was breeding rats. From an initial population of rats, the researchers picked the most aggressive and the least aggressive and formed two breeding populations. From each subsequent generation, they picked the half of the population of each group that was the most aggressive (for the aggressive group) and tame (for the tame group) to continue breeding. After just a few generations, the tame group were incredibly tame, and would allow anyone to handle them and genuinely enjoyed human contact. The aggressive group would launch themselves at their cages whenever they saw a human enter the room in which they were kept.

Animals that are selectively bred for aggression and gameness over many generations will produce animals that are aggressive and are game.
 
We seem to have a abundance of mini Pitbull looking things in the UK at the moment. I think of them as Chav dogs. I saw one the other day that had such a big studded harness that it could barely walk. It seems to be an image thing. Apparently its compulsory to have a tattoo on your neck to own one.
 
MikeMangum said:
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The various breeds that are referred to as pit bulls all have one thing in common: they were bred for gamenessWP.

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I'm not sure why people find it so hard to believe that dogs that were specifically bred for gameness over dozens of generations would be more aggressive, and when they attacked would produce far higher fatalities than dogs that were not bred specifically for those traits.

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Very well put. Thanks.

I'll add just one anecdote -

After several monthe working in Malawi my son (and friends) did the 'African adventure' thing. This included walking with lions on a game reserve. The lions had been socialised from cubs and were totally used to human beings being close to them.

But the youngsters were warned to walk very carefully to avoid tripping, and not to reach down to examine things or pick up any dropped items. The wardens explained that getting on all-fours can turn you - in the lion's eyes - from harmless human to a potential threat or prey. The wardens carried rifles just in case.

I wouldn't have a kid around any bull terrier type for similar reasons.

I'm quite prepared to believe bull terriers are not any more inherently aggressive than other dogs. But when they snap they tend to snap 100%, and they have the power to make it stick. They should be neutered out of existence.
 
It isn't so much that pit bulls are highly aggressive, because they are less aggressive than many breeds of dogs such as poodles or Jack Russell terriers. The problem is that when a pit bull attacks, because of 1) it's larger size, and 2) it's gameness, when a pit bull does attack it is far, far, far harder to get the dog to give up the attack.

I can't imagine any dog organization recommending carrying a "break stick" to pry apart the jaws of your golden retriever when it attacks someone. Maybe a tennis ball...
 
National Geographic has done a lot of dog stories, including a bunch of shorts of the "Dog Wisperer" Cesar Milan at work. Most available on their YouTube channel are shorts, but there are two series of longer videos. I've watched them both and recommend them.

There are two series of full length programs. The first is about Dogtown in Utah; the first video here is about the dogs rescued from the Michaeil Vick dog fighting empire, which the courts eventually sent to Dogtown.

Saving the Michael Vick Dogs


Another stories about Dogtown:


(This one is only available until 7/25/10)


The second is a rescue organization in New York City called Rescue Ink. They are a real bunch of odd-balls who work with dogs and other animals (and old cars and motorcycles and tatoos and chains... you get the idea). It's like the A_Team for animals.

Rescue Ink


...other stories about Rescue Ink:




Enjoy them.
 
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One of my gf's dogs is a Pit Bull. He plays with the other dog, the cats, and is a total sweetheart. He's a 70-pound lapdog.

Unfortunately, you rarely run across the headline "Pit Bull rolls over, begs for tummy rubs."
 
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Paradox74 said:
Recently, I've recieved a video link from a friend where a cat and a pitbull were playing with each other. Not something that one might expect from a cat and a dog; especially a pitbull:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi7v1iUWj6w&feature=related

Here's one of the comments on this video:

"6 months ago 33 I think the pitbull's bad rep is due to the kind of ppl who like to own them (generally speaking). A lot of redneck idiots think it's a great idea to encourage aggression in their dog, then when it attacks some kid they're like 'omg he's never done THAT before!'.......?.........one word....idiocracy! "

I've also came across a website that tries to refute the myths about pitbulls:
http://www.badrap.org/rescue/index.html

The pitbull's "bad rep" may be due to confusion with correlation vs. causation thanks to the mass media. Anyway, is there any scientific, peer-reviewed literature (or the like) out there that analyzes the behaviors of this particular breed of dog?
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http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/rs...blem-in-victoria/story-e6frf7jo-1225788267670

RSPCA Victoria president Dr Hugh Wirth said the dogs were a menace and were not suitable as pets for anyone.
"They are time bombs waiting for the right circumstances,'' Dr Wirth said.
"The American pit bull terrier is lethal because it was a breed that was developed purely for dog fighting, in other words killing the opposition.
"They should never have been allowed into the country. They are an absolute menace."
They were bred to be aggressive and dangerous. All dogs, even those that are tame, are 'wild at heart'. Some revert more quickly and unpredictably than others.
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Cleon said:
Unfortunately, you rarely run across the headline "Pit Bull rolls over, begs for tummy rubs."
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And you rarely run across the headline "Labrador retriever kills child", even though they've been the most popular dog in much of the western world for decades.

Did you read what was posted above about the origins of bull terriers, what they were bred for, 'gameness' and so on?
 
GlennB said:
And you rarely run across the headline "Labrador retriever kills child", even though they've been the most popular dog in much of the western world for decades.
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I hope you don't think that's because Labs don't attack and kill children occasionally.

Did you read what was posted above about the origins of bull terriers, what they were bred for, 'gameness' and so on?
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Well, obviously, in that case Butch is just an absolutely ferocious beastie who should be put down immediately. No tummy rubs for him. :rolleyes:
 
The American pit bull terrier is lethal because it was a breed that was developed purely for dog fighting, in other words killing the opposition.
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Well, now we're having it both ways. Either the APBT is, in specific, a dangerous breed, and it is a dis-service to other dogs who happen to be mis-identified as an APBT.

Or, there are a wide variety of dogs that are commonly identified as "pit bulls" - they have been bred and interbred for many purposes, and possible attacks across a variety of dog breeds have been mis-identified as APBT, inflating their "numbers" and starting a cycle of "dogs bred by dangerous people to be dangerous dogs".

(In other words, earlier in this thread it was stated that over 40% of severe attacks are attributed to APBT, which only make up 5% of the dog population. If we grant that smaller dogs, by physiology, cannot make serious attacks, what portion of the large dog population is made up of APBT and other breeds that can be mistaken for APBT?)

Emet said:
Well, again I can only relate my experience. I have had dozens of Greyhound and Akita owner clients who also own cats. =^..^=
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Exactly. Even though Greyhounds are specifically bred for prey drive, there are many that have a naturally low prey drive or can be socialized not to chase prey. And even then, owners are (or should be) cautioned to be very careful with their dogs in new situations such as at a dog park with smaller dogs.
 
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The American pit bull terrier is lethal because it was a breed that was developed purely for dog fighting, in other words killing the opposition.
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(my bolding)

American Pit Bull Terrier
Main article: American Pit Bull Terrier
<snip>
... however, some were selectively bred for their fighting prowess,...
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(my bolding)
 
Skeptical Greg said:
Which would be the ones we are concerned about...


( my highlighting )
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Except when you're talking about the breed, you're going after all of them, not just some of them.

By all means - shut down dogfighting. Raid the illegal puppy mills, prosecute people who raise their dogs to be aggressive and dangerous. Put down a dog if it's dangerous to people.

But the other pit bulls--the ones raised by responsible dog owners, the properly socialized and friendly dogs? Leave them the hell alone.
 
Cleon said:
I hope you don't think that's because Labs don't attack and kill children occasionally.


Well, obviously, in that case Butch is just an absolutely ferocious beastie who should be put down immediately. No tummy rubs for him. :rolleyes:
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JREF, a skeptical forum. A place for critical thinking. You should try it some time.

Yes, Labs attack sometimes and very occasionally kill. It's a rare event as any dog fatality/notifiable attack statistic you care to investigate will tell you. They weren't bred for that kind of behaviour.

Meanwhile I keep a loaded gun lying around the place, in case violent intruders barge in. It ain't gone off yet. Therefore it's perfectly safe? D'uh.
 
Emet said:
Veterinary behaviorists are not enamored of Cesar Milan.
link
link
link
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The video discussed in the above links was taken off National Geographic's web site, but a short clip is available here- as a vet, it was difficult and disturbing to watch:
http://www.comcast.net/video/shadow-jake-riley-and-norton/698484858/

Ugh.
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I knew he was controversial. Sometimes it's helpful to know where a link for information is, whether it is positive or negative. In any event, the videos that I linked to are not about him or his tactics.
 
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