Pink Slime

[Dipayan]

A, I have never said it didn't boil down to just personal taste, & B, watch again, most said the flavor and texture of the non LBT was better and the ones with LBT were "juicier" and only 2 people preferred the stuff with LBT, not most people.

My point is that the study claims that:
a) it seems to be a matter of personal taste - not objectively 'good' or 'bad'
b) they imply that given non-test conditions, people would not be able to make out a difference

But it's all beside the point since all I've ever complained about was, it is noticeable, and it is not labeled. It should be labeled and it was dishonest not to do so.

1) This is the leap that I don't understand. Even if I agree with you that some people might be able to notice the textural difference, why does that automatically mean it needs to be labeled? Hell, people are finding it juicier, and even saying that they would not be able to find any difference unless they were prompted to look for some. I don't think procedural changes are made to appease a tiny minority - people who notice textural difference, and therefore find ground beef inedible.

2) That's not all you ever complained about. You started with that, then went all over the place. Your latest complaint was that BPI named its product misleadingly to fool the common public (which it doesn't even serve).

I said texture was noticeably different and the majority of participants in this double blind test found the texture noticeably different.

You said texture was noticeably different to the point that you could no longer eat the burger. You claimed LFTB made the meat mealy and gristly. The one respondent who commented on the texture (beyond 'I like this better') said that the burger with LFTB was a bit more spongy. Are you aligning this comment with your perspective?

The respondents were reacting to percentage differences in texture. And the study even ends with saying that 'Even though overall the burger without LFTB won the day, it seems like a matter of personal taste'.

It's a pretty large step from saying - 'The texture is different' to saying 'The texture is different. Those corporate thieves at BPI deliberately gave their product a misleading name and chose not to label it so that they can pay off USDA and fool the American public'.

 

[Dipayan]

What this test tells me is that in the test that you will be running, you should be mixing up the samples. If A=regular ground beef & B=ground beef with LFTB, some people should get AA, some should get AB, and some should get BB. That way you will know if people are finding differences simply because they are looking for them.

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

Just wanted to point out, I had some burgers I made from meat I bought from the store. It had 20% fat. And they were deeee licious.

 

[Ryokan]

What this test tells me is that in the test that you will be running, you should be mixing up the samples. If A=regular ground beef & B=ground beef with LFTB, some people should get AA, some should get AB, and some should get BB. That way you will know if people are finding differences simply because they are looking for them.

This is a good idea.

I did a similar thing with a friend who claimed to taste the difference between Pepsi and Coca Cola. I got some Pepsi, Coca Cola and a locally made variant and put three glasses on the table, and had him taste them without knowing which was in the glass. Of course he assumed that all three varieties were present, but in truth I had put the same one in all the glasses. He still identified three different colas..

 

[Furcifer]

Trim is not "collected using the centrifuge". It is collected, heated to melt the fat and centrifuged to remove the fat and recover the bits of protein that are high in fibrous protein and low in muscle protein.

You really should re-read just what LBT is, you seem to think it is something it is not.

I'll keep spoon feeding you here, maybe you will eventually answer the question you keep dodging, why aren't 'trim' and LBT interchangeable with the exception of the bacteria?

The centrifuge removes the fat. Why not lower the fat of burger without adding LBT by heating the 'trim' and centrifuging it to remove the fat?

It's not heated to remove the fat, it's heated to facillitate the seperation of meat and connective tissue from the bone and tendons etc. it's connected to. The fact that the fat seperates first is a bonus, a bonus without which LBT probably wouldn't be viable product.
I made the mistake earlier of assuming LBT was higher in fat than it is. Of course a pink product high in fat would be almost worthless, it needs to be lean.

In other words LBT is a rather ingenius (sp?) product, or rather the process is. And despite you claims to the contrary I fully understand why they use a centrafuge, in fact I find it kinda cool.

 

[theprestige]

This is a good idea.

I did a similar thing with a friend who claimed to taste the difference between Pepsi and Coca Cola. I got some Pepsi, Coca Cola and a locally made variant and put three glasses on the table, and had him taste them without knowing which was in the glass. Of course he assumed that all three varieties were present, but in truth I had put the same one in all the glasses. He still identified three different colas..

NPR ran a story recently where the same thing was done with wine: Four different decanters of wine were offered, but only three different wines were present.

Needless to say, the tasters found plenty of differences between all "four" wines.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

It's not heated to remove the fat, it's heated to facillitate the seperation of meat and connective tissue from the bone and tendons etc. it's connected to. The fact that the fat seperates first is a bonus, a bonus without which LBT probably wouldn't be viable product.
I made the mistake earlier of assuming LBT was higher in fat than it is. Of course a pink product high in fat would be almost worthless, it needs to be lean.

In other words LBT is a rather ingenius (sp?) product, or rather the process is. And despite you claims to the contrary I fully understand why they use a centrafuge, in fact I find it kinda cool.

For someone who has posted so many condescending comments about how superior your knowledge of beef processing is, you have one big fat foot in your mouth.

Reuter's report on the governor's tour of the plant

The company showed the governors and reporters how the product is made.

First, a conveyer belt brought in scraps left over from a plant next door that produces steaks, roasts and other cuts of meat. The scraps were heated to around 100 degrees Fahrenheit to facilitate separation of the fat, then dumped into a huge meat grinder to pull out fat, cartilage, bone and connective tissue.

A centrifuge spinning 3,000 times a minute continued the separation process. Inside a third machine the material was treated with ammonia hydroxide gas to eliminate bacteria.

Other meat recovery systems:

Mechanically Recovered Meat

MRM is meat residue which is left on the carcass after all the prime cuts have been removed.

It is pressure-blasted off the bones by machinery and forms a reddish slurry which resembles mince.

Some companies then use it to bulk up their meat products.

Experts say it is likely that bits of spinal cord - the part of a cow most likely to be contaminated with BSE - could be found in mechanically recovered meat.

Mechanically separated meat

Mechanically separated meat (MSM), mechanically recovered/reclaimed meat (MRM), mechanically deboned meat (MDM), lean fresh pork trim[1], or pink slime when made from beef, and white slime when made from chicken[2] is a paste-like meat product produced by forcing beef, pork, turkey or chicken, under high pressure through a sieve or similar device to separate the bone from the edible meat tissue. For the production of chicken and turkey MSM, most of the time, breast carcasses are used as they still contain parts of breast meat.

Mechanically separated meat has been used in certain meat and meat products since the late 1960s. This product can be contrasted with meat extracted by advanced meat recovery systems. The product is used in the manufacture of hot dog and bologna.[3][4] It has been reported that white slime has a "not-so-appetizing meat production process",[3] because "Pink slime solves a serious food safety problem and is nutritious, but it violates many cultural norms here in the U.S."[2]

Advanced Meat Recovery

Advanced meat recovery (AMR) is a slaughterhouse deboning process by which the last traces of skeletal muscle meat are removed from animal bones after the primal cuts have been carved off manually.

The machinery used in this process separates meat from bone by scraping, shaving, or pressing the meat from the bone without breaking or grinding the bone. Products produced by advanced meat recovery machinery can be labeled using terms associated with hand-deboned product (i.e., "beef", "pork", "beef trimmings", etc.). AMR meat typically is used as an ingredient in products requiring further processing, such as hot dogs.

This meat is comparable in appearance, texture, and composition to meat trimmings and similar meat products derived by hand.

USDA regulations for procurement of frozen fresh ground beef products state that "Beef that is mechanically separated from bone with automatic deboning systems, advanced lean (meat) recovery (AMR) systems or powered knives, will not be allowed".[1]

In none of these cases is meat heated to facilitate removing it from the bone. If you've ever cooked meat on the bone, you'd know the sign the meat is done, i.e. fully cooked, is when the meat separates from the bone. It does not separate from the bone by mere heating and LFTB is not a cooked product.


But go ahead, pretend you meant something else. I have more links.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

NPR ran a story recently where the same thing was done with wine: Four different decanters of wine were offered, but only three different wines were present.

Needless to say, the tasters found plenty of differences between all "four" wines.

This has been addressed already.

 

[Furcifer]

*sigh

It's heated to facillitate the removal of meat, connective tisssue AND fat from the bone.
How exactly do you think the bone that gets removed in the centrafuge gets there?
Please don't tell me you think they add it after the heating.

You have to read for comprehension.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

*sigh

It's heated to facillitate the removal of meat, connective tisssue AND fat from the bone.
How exactly do you think the bone that gets removed in the centrafuge gets there?
Please don't tell me you think they add it after the heating.

You have to read for comprehension.

I knew you'd try to double down, and fail to support your argument.

Claiming "removal of meat, connective tissue AND fat from the bone" is the purpose of the heating says you don't understand how a centrifuge works or you don't know the density of meat, connective tissue and bone, vs the density of fat.

Also, the trim is only heated to 100^o F. That only melts the fat, it does not result in any separation of anything except the fat. Separation of meat from bone and connective tissue only happens when the protein is denatured and that means cooked. LBT is an uncooked product. If it were cooked no ammonia would be needed.

The bone is not removed it is ground up. There's very little bone in the trim in the first place. That was discussed along with the difference between this LBT which is still manually removed from the bone and the product which is mechanically removed from the bone. The latter has a limited amount of calcium allowed in the final product. That's not an issue with manually removed trim.

Mechanically removed meat and manually removed meat have different regulations. Pink Slime LBT is manually removed.

You're just putting more foot in your mouth here, Fur.

 

[theprestige]

This has been addressed already.

I'm sorry; I thought I was exchanging thematically-related anecdotes with fellow members, in a thread on the same general topic.

I didn't realize that I was falling afoul of the Queen of the Thread, by whose will alone may we discuss whatever topic meets with Her approval.

If it please Your Highness, may I give and take whatever contributions in this thread best suit myself, without having to worry whether or not you think it's "been addressed already"?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm sorry; I thought I was exchanging thematically-related anecdotes with fellow members, in a thread on the same general topic.

I didn't realize that I was falling afoul of the Queen of the Thread, by whose will alone may we discuss whatever topic meets with Her approval.

If it please Your Highness, may I give and take whatever contributions in this thread best suit myself, without having to worry whether or not you think it's "been addressed already"?

Seeing this reaction, I wonder what you would have thought about the orignal post I deleted?

The point is this is not an analogous case and I didn't feel like going over that for the 'n'th time. I was merely noting that arguments supporting the lack of analogy have been posted already.

 

[Furcifer]

I knew you'd try to double down, and fail to support your argument.

Claiming "removal of meat, connective tissue AND fat from the bone" is the purpose of the heating says you don't understand how a centrifuge works or you don't know the density of meat, connective tissue and bone, vs the density of fat.

Also, the trim is only heated to 100^o F. That only melts the fat, it does not result in any separation of anything except the fat. Separation of meat from bone and connective tissue only happens when the protein is denatured and that means cooked. LBT is an uncooked product. If it were cooked no ammonia would be needed.

The bone is not removed it is ground up. There's very little bone in the trim in the first place. That was discussed along with the difference between this LBT which is still manually removed from the bone and the product which is mechanically removed from the bone. The latter has a limited amount of calcium allowed in the final product. That's not an issue with manually removed trim.

Mechanically removed meat and manually removed meat have different regulations. Pink Slime LBT is manually removed.

You're just putting more foot in your mouth here, Fur.

*sigh

The bone isn't ground up, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Yes the fat is rendered, that's exactly why it facillitates the removal of meat and connective tissue. I don't suppose you know what soap is do you?

Again, the trim used in LBT is the same trim found in ground beef. It's just not feasible to remove it manually. The processing removes some of the fat, so what? Trim itself is the result of processing steaks and other cuts of meat by removing the fat and connective tissues.

 

[theprestige]

The point is this is not an analogous case and I didn't feel like going over that for the 'n'th time. I was merely noting that arguments supporting the lack of analogy have been posted already.

Have you considered the possibility that not all posts in this thread are about you and the points and arguments that you're trying to make?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Have you considered the possibility that not all posts in this thread are about you and the points and arguments that you're trying to make?

Have you considered the issue you brought up has been discussed and that's all I said?

 

[theprestige]

Have you considered the issue you brought up has been discussed and that's all I said?

Have you considered the possibility that I wasn't bringing up an issue, I was recounting an anecdote, and that clearly my anecdote can't possibly have been discussed before I even recounted it? You're still assuming that somehow my anecdote must have something to do with whatever issue you're trying to discuss. May I suggest you'd get further in your discussion, if you didn't stop to remark on every anecdote that covers points you don't want to discuss anymore?

 

[CosCos]

Wasn't there supposed to be a test conducted last week? Did I miss something?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Wasn't there supposed to be a test conducted last week? Did I miss something?

Yeah, it was postponed again until June. Our group leader thought he had arranged for the tavern to cook the burger but they only agreed to re-heat it so I'll be bringing cooked burger to the next meet-up instead. This time, however, all the plans are in place including arrangements with the tavern directly.

 

[Furcifer]

So I finally got an email from the FSIS. It's a signed .pdf, unlike my last inquiry which was just an email.
Unfortunately I can't get it off my phone and post it here. I could forward it to someone via email if they would like, just PM me an address.
To summarize there's no safety concerns with LFTB so there are no limits as to how much can be used. The national lunch program adheres to federal nutrional requirements and that's why they limit the amount to 15%.
It closes with her urging people to take a look a science based studies on LFTB.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

So I finally got an email from the FSIS. It's a signed .pdf, unlike my last inquiry which was just an email.
Unfortunately I can't get it off my phone and post it here. I could forward it to someone via email if they would like, just PM me an address.
To summarize there's no safety concerns with LFTB so there are no limits as to how much can be used. The national lunch program adheres to federal nutrional requirements and that's why they limit the amount to 15%.
It closes with her urging people to take a look a science based studies on LFTB.

It sounds like it doesn't say any more than we already know except clarifying the limits.

Begs the question again, Fur, why not sell 100% LFTB if it's the same as the rest of the ground beef?