Physical evidence that a plane did NOT hit the Pentagon

[T.A.M.]

Yes, but how much damage? Enough to show up on a photo taken at a shallow angle and from a distance?

I'm labouring the point on engine construction because given the very shallow angle of impact, it seems quite possible that only the light outer cowling of the engine impacted the concrete, along with the main fan blades (easily sheared off).

Have you ever held an aluminium skin or even a whole cowling from an aircraft? It's light, thin, you could distort it with your bare hands. Even the whole cowling assembly would be a fraction of the overall engine mass. The all-up weight of the whole engine has no bearing at all on the damage it might inflict to the concrete.

Given the shallow angle, much less damage would be inflicted. And because of that angle, it's unlikely that the full mass of the engine impacted the concrete.

You do realize you are using big words and that thing called edumacation to deal with this guy right? You realize he has no edumacation in any of the fields in question...right.

TAM

 

[Bobert]

Well then certainly he must have SOME qualifications, I mean he is part of the CITIZENS INVESTIGATIONS TEAM Isnt he?

Perhaps training in Genetics, DNA analysis, Criminology, Forensics, Crash analysis, Psychology, medicine, physics, chemistry...certainly something... some training beyond highschool?

TAM

He does A LOT of Tai Chi and plays the drums, does that count?

 

[T.A.M.]

well if he was on a plane with Jim Fetzer, the terrorists wouldnt stand a chance.

TAM

 

[Alt+F4]

The citgo witnesses have proven the plane didn't cause the physical damage.

This implicates people all the way to the top in this crime.

Of course they had the ability to compromise the chain of command of the DNA.

Who are "they"? Again, names please. Let's start with these four men, are they responsible?

1 Captain Glenn N. Wagner, USN – seniorArmed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP) officer during the recovery operation

2 Colonel Abubkr Marzoukl, USAF - acting Armed Forces Medical Examiner

3 Lt. Commander Bruce Ensign, USN - AFIP team leader at the site

4 Dr. William C. Rodriguez – forensic anthropologist who determined the race, sex and stature of victims for presumptive identification when necessary

 

[Lyte Trip]

Do we need to pull out that video of the jet hitting the brick wall and virtually disappearing into a million pieces again.

TAM

Haha.

The Sandia experiment was conducted with a MUCH smaller plane against a MUCH thicker wall.

Completely irrelevant.

 

[Bobert]

Go Get Em Tiger!

 

[Lyte Trip]

Who are "they"? Again, names please. Let's start with these four men, are they responsible?

1 Captain Glenn N. Wagner, USN – seniorArmed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP) officer during the recovery operation

2 Colonel Abubkr Marzoukl, USAF - acting Armed Forces Medical Examiner

3 Lt. Commander Bruce Ensign, USN - AFIP team leader at the site

4 Dr. William C. Rodriguez – forensic anthropologist who determined the race, sex and stature of victims for presumptive identification when necessary

How am I supposed to know? How do you know that these men had perfect control of the chain of command at all times?

You don't.

The citgo witnesses proved the plane couldn't have caused the physical damage.

The chain of command of the DNA evidence HAD to have been compromised.

 

[T.A.M.]

The wall was thicker than the concrete foundation?

it is relevant

TAM

 

[Architect]

Lyte

Explain the difference between a ground slab, a raft slab, and a foundation.

I shall await your reply with interest.

 

[H'ethetheth]

Accepting the word of the suspect is never accepted as proof.

I guess you just about summed it up there.

 

[Lyte Trip]

The wall was thicker than the concrete foundation?

TAM

No doubt significantly.

Regardless I'd be willing to bet there was damage to the wall.

 

[Bobert]

What is that produces people like lyte?
Jim Jones would be so proud.

 

[T.A.M.]

So you are saying the wall in the Sandia experiment was thicker than the Pentagon Concrete foundation?

TAM

 

[Lyte Trip]

Lyte

Explain the difference between a ground slab, a raft slab, and a foundation.

I shall await your reply with interest.

I have never claimed to be an architect, Architect.

If you want to tell me that one of those variations would be impervious to having a several ton jet aircraft engine dug into it at 500mph+ then by all means......go right ahead.

 

[Alt+F4]

The chain of command of the DNA evidence HAD to have been compromised.

Prove it.

Code-named "Operation Noble Eagle," AFIP’s team of forensic pathologists, odontologists, a forensic anthropologist, DNA experts, investigators and support personnel worked for over two weeks at the Dover Air Force Base Port Mortuary at Dover, Delaware to identify the 188 victims of the attack. "Our staff represented every branch of the service," said AFIP Director Glenn N. Wagner, CAPT, MC, USN, who served as senior officer during the operation.

The investigation mobilized AFIP assets in many ways. During the hours immediately following the crash of American Airlines Flight 77 into the Pentagon, the acting Armed Forces Medical Examiner, Abubkr Marzouk, Col, USAF, MC, began working with FBI and local Virginia law enforcement officials to create an effective plan for first recovering and then identifying the victims. At the same time, personnel from the Office of the Armed Forces Medical Examiner (OAFME) positioned and staged equipment to begin operations at Dover. Bruce Ensign, LCDR, MC, USN, served as AFIP’s team leader at the site. "We immediately called in regional medical examiners from as far away as San Diego to participate," he said. A total of 12 forensic pathologists, assisted by two AFIP staff pathologists, headed the OAFME investigation team.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Also arriving at Dover during those early critical hours were two other key AFIP groups: forensic scientists from OAFME’s Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory (AFDIL) and oral pathologists from the Department of Oral and Maxillofacial Pathology. AFDIL scientists ensured that data systems and records were available to make DNA identifications, while the oral pathology group created a triage area to conduct dental identifications. Contacts were also made with family services personnel in each branch of the military to obtain antemortem information and reference material. Mortuary operations were fully underway by the evening of September 13, just two days after the attack.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]AFIP utilized a well-defined and tested system for conducting the identifications of the Pentagon attack victims. When remains arrived at the morgue, a scanning device searched for the presence of unexploded ordinance or metallic foreign bodies. A computerized tracking system then assigned a number to each victim for efficient tracking. FBI experts collected trace evidence to search for chemicals from explosive devices and conducted fingerprint identifications. Forensic dentistry experts from the Department of Oral and Maxillofacial Pathology then performed dental charting and comparison with antemortem dental records. Full-body radiographs documented skeletal fractures and assisted in the identification process, followed by autopsy inspection.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]At autopsy, forensic pathologists determined the cause and manner of death, aided by forensic anthropologist Dr. William C. Rodriguez to determine the race, sex and stature of victims for presumptive identification when necessary. A board-certified epidemiologist managed the tracking system for data collected during the autopsy process. Tissue samples were collected for DNA identification and further toxicologic studies. Forensic photographers -- essential to any forensic investigation -- documented injuries and personal effects. Finally, mortuary specialists embalmed, dressed and casketed remains prior to release to next-of-kin. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For eight days a full complement of AFIP forensic specialists worked twelve-hour shifts to complete the operation. "This is the largest mass fatality we’ve dealt with in recent years," Ensign said. "We have modalities today that we didn’t have before. Our investigation was much more technology-intensive."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ensign noted that the entire team worked well together. "Because of the combined effort of all three services and the FBI we were very pleased with the speed of the identification process. Essential records and references were submitted to us in a timely way." Logistical help from AFIP also played an important role. "We had tremendous logistical issues obtaining equipment, especially with additional demands in New York City and Somerset County, Pennsylvania," he said. "Fortunately our logistical support was terrific in helping us get material in." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Others also played essential roles. Histotechnicians from the Department of Scientific Laboratories served as autopsy technicians assisting pathologists with the remains, while special agents assigned by the various services helped in the investigation. "It was a terrific team effort," Ensign said.

[/FONT]

Linky:
http://www.afip.org/Departments/legalmed/legmed2002/kelly.htm

 

[Lyte Trip]

So you are saying the wall in the Sandia experiment was thicker than the Pentagon Concrete foundation?

TAM

I am saying that this is an irrelevant comparison as I am certain that both would sustain visible damage from a several ton jet engine being dug into it at 500+mph.

 

[T.A.M.]

concrete wall standing upright hit by plane....versus huge, thick concrete foundation sitting atop the planet earth, struck by plane...any difference?

TAM

 

[Lyte Trip]

Prove it.



Linky:
http://www.afip.org/Departments/legalmed/legmed2002/kelly.htm

This does not prove that it could not have been or was not compromised.

Again.....the north side claim implicates people in this crime all the way to the top.

If they committed the crime they had certainly had enough access to compromise the chain of command of evidence.

 

[Lyte Trip]

concrete wall standing upright hit by plane....versus huge, thick concrete foundation sitting atop the planet earth, struck by plane...any difference?

TAM

Of course there is difference!

It's your irrelevant analogy not mine.

Bottom line even if the concrete foundation was 10 or 15 feet thick like that Sandia wall there would still be visible damage to the top of it.

 

[ref]

At this point the evidence has proven otherwise so it makes no sense to suggest I could believe something that is not true unless reality was altered.

So you are saying, that nothing would change your mind. You are not looking for truth, you are looking to back up your own claims.

If you would consider truth as your goal, you would take into account every piece of evidence. And further evidence could alter the outcome.

Now you have made up your mind, that you have the truth no matter what.

This thread is ignored. Reason, predetermined theory without a chance of learning.