Personal assaults on Obama

[Olowkow]

I'm not a candidate for office with no accomplishments beyond a PoliSci degree and LLD. Given the insipid economic/political philosophy of the President, as he's explained it so far, and his problems with expressing himself without his teleprompter, it's reasonable to question his one selling point, his supposed intellect. Why not?

I think it would help a lot for purposes of discussion if you could provide a YouTube example, perhaps, of what you are referring to concerning the inability of Obama to express himself. Maybe there are some good examples of this, but I have seen some pretty good examples of pure statesmanship as well. He does well in news conferences generally in my opinion.

Also, do you have a good example of Romney's inspirational speaking? I just don't see it myself. Of course, as everyone knows no one gives a formal speech without the use of teleprompters. This was a meme that I believe Bachmann started, and a some folks seem to have fallen for it.

ETA: Obama at press conference
Promotional video
Rape is Rape

Just to illustrate, some random examples. At times he does choose his words slowly and carefully, but generally I find he is a skilled speaker. His stutter only happens when his thoughts seem to come too quickly and his tongue can't keep up with them.

 

[balrog666]

The President's economic and political philosophy are entirely correct and will be vindicated by history.

That you choose to keep your head in the sand and believe him to be wrong and then use that as evidence that he must have gotten his accolades because of "favoritism" only serves as a condemnation of you.

History shows otherwise but that doesn't mean that the idiots can't win though - talk to a few old Russians if you want to see how that worked out.

 

[Olowkow]

History shows otherwise but that doesn't mean that the idiots can't win though - talk to a few old Russians if you want to see how that worked out.

Are you referring to Yeltsin?

ETA: Well, these days it is a lot more useful to speak in terms of "skill sets" rather than using playground talk that simply views a person in terms of IQ, stupid/smart. It is also useful to say clearly why you feel some people are "idiots". It is really a meaningless term. What history do you have in mind? Have you visited Russia? Do you speak Russian?

 

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

I'm not a candidate for office with no accomplishments beyond a PoliSci degree and LLD.

You don't regard a successful political career prior to winning the presidency an accomplishment? Hell, you don't consider being elected to the highest office in the land an accomplishment?

Given the insipid economic/political philosophy of the President

His economics have been lacking; but his military policies have largely been a continuation of the post-Rumsfeld policies started under Bush and I find nothing objectionable about his foreign policy, social justice views, and only minor quibbles with regards to medical/entitlement programs. Essentially, your undefined problems with the policies of the president are largely falling on deaf ears. We agree in that his economics are disappointing but I doubt for the same reason.

and his problems with expressing himself without his teleprompter

I challenge you to name a politician who hasn't used a teleprompter in recent memory. Even if he is the only one how does this speak negatively of him? Is public speaking your primary criteria for choosing a candidate?

it's reasonable to question his one selling point, his supposed intellect. Why not?

I'm not challenging you on questioning his intellect, I'm challenging you to provide evidence that he is A) the product of affirmative action and B) provided sexual favors or otherwise brown-nosed his way to earning his degrees/honors. These are unsupported claims and, as I said in the previous thread, "fitting" with your preconceived notions does not make it evidence.

Your entire response can be summed up as an intellectually dishonest side-stepping of the entire issue. Namely, provide evidence for your above assertions that he is a product of affirmative action or that favoritism is responsible for the entirety of his "accomplishments" as defined by you. For the last time, really wishing it was true is not evidence.

 

[Travis]

History shows otherwise but that doesn't mean that the idiots can't win though - talk to a few old Russians if you want to see how that worked out.

Why would I want to talk to old Russians about Obama's economic and political philosophy?

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

You don't regard a successful political career prior to winning the presidency an accomplishment? Hell, you don't consider being elected to the highest office in the land an accomplishment?¹...
His economics have been lacking; but his military policies have largely been a continuation of the post-Rumsfeld policies started under Bush and I find nothing objectionable about his foreign policy², social justice views³, and only minor quibbles with regards to medical/entitlement programs.⁴ Essentially, your undefined problems with the policies of the president are largely falling on deaf ears. We agree in that his economics are disappointing but I doubt for the same reason.⁵...
Is public speaking your primary criteria for choosing a candidate?⁶...provide evidence for your above assertions that he is a product of affirmative action or that favoritism is responsible for the entirety of his "accomplishments" as defined by you. For the last time, really wishing it was true is not evidence.⁷

1. I once did. Now I think he and many other politicians are other people's puppets. They say too many stupid things to have succeeded on their own.
2. Egypt (why the rush to dump Mubarak with no follow-up?). Libya (Bush at least went to Congress for authorization of action in Afganistan and Iraq). Mexico (Fast and Furious). Canada (Keystone pipeline). He relies too much on union support to support unilateral free trade (my preference).
3. Unclear. How does "social justice" differ from plain old "justice", from "social injustice", "anti-social justice", "anti-social injustice", "economic justice", and "environmental justice"? You get the idea. I had some hope three years ago that he'd support a stand-down in the drug war. Why has this not happened?
4. Here's our major disagreement. I don't think the welfare State can last, and the end will be painful for millions.
5. Right. That's honest.
6. No.
7. My "affirmative action baby" is an explanation of the evidence (the banal soft socialism, the policy drift, the scrubbed record). Your explanation differs, obviously.

 

[Travis]

1. I once did. Now I think he and many other politicians are other people's puppets. They say too many stupid things to have succeeded on their own.

Remember, it is only stupid to you.

 

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

1. I once did. Now I think he and many other politicians are other people's puppets. They say too many stupid things to have succeeded on their own.

CT is that way

2. Egypt (why the rush to dump Mubarak with no follow-up?).

By that point in time there was little that could be done to prop up the Murbarak regime that didn't entail a crack-down on protests led by US troops, followed by a US-led suppression of full-scale civil war. The best that can be managed was to be diplomatic to the new Egyptian government.

Libya (Bush at least went to Congress for authorization of action in Afganistan and Iraq).

This would be a constitutional issue, not foreign policy. I too find this problematic, though I think we agree the world is a better place sans He-Of-Many-Spellings.

Mexico (Fast and Furious).

Agreed

Canada (Keystone pipeline).

Agreed

He relies too much on union support to support unilateral free trade (my preference).

I'm supportive of unilateral free trade, however I do not believe that's actually what the president or the US government has in mind. Threats of tariffs are still viewed as a diplomatic tool.

3. Unclear. How does "social justice" differ from plain old "justice", from "social injustice", "anti-social justice", "anti-social injustice", "economic justice", and "environmental justice"? You get the idea. I had some hope three years ago that he'd support a stand-down in the drug war. Why has this not happened?

Social Justice often refers to social issues such as gay marriage and gender/racial equality. You could toss in the Drug war on that, it certainly has disproportionate impact on minorities, though it's tangled up in more than just the social justice label.

6. No.

Then why does it strike you as a valid criticism? Even registering as a tertiary concern strikes me as unreasonable.

7. My "affirmative action baby" is an explanation of the evidence (the banal soft socialism, the policy drift, the scrubbed record). Your explanation differs, obviously.

It seems more like a throw-away statement intended to incite; it certainly sounds racist, assumptive, and highly prejudicial. Also, explain what? What "evidence" you've made a number of assertions but provided no evidence. Even then, you cannot simply toss out whatever explanation you like and defend yourself because you think it explains...something. That'd be like accusing *insert politician here* of being "stupid" because they obviously inject smack into their eyeballs.

 

[Halfcentaur]

Why do smart people have to sound so mean

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

...Then why does it strike you as a valid criticism? Even registering as a tertiary concern strikes me as unreasonable.¹It seems more like a throw-away statement intended to incite; it certainly sounds racist²...

1. Obama's difficulties with English would not matter so much if his promoters hadn't sold him as an intellectual.
Along with, uh, the repeated uh, "uh"s in his unscripted conversation, there's the frequent resort to "to be honest...". That's the long-winded version of "uh", with the disadvantage that it creates two classes of sentences: those prefaced with "to be honest..." and those that are not. You mean, you're lying the other times?
2. How is it "racist" to suggest that a black man might have benefitted from a policy that advocates sold as beneficial to blacks?

All "racist" means anymore is "caucasian who disagrees with a socialist".

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

...Social Justice often refers to social issues such as gay marriage and gender/racial equality. You could toss in the Drug war on that, it certainly has disproportionate impact on minorities, though it's tangled up in more than just the social justice label.

Someone could initiate a worthwhile conversation around the tension between "differential impact" and "equality before the law". I hope to see it in this forum someday. Is it "equal" to feed all the animals in the zoo, from hummingbirds to leopards, the same diet?

 

[BenBurch]

Someone could initiate a worthwhile conversation around the tension between "differential impact" and "equality before the law". I hope to see it in this forum someday. Is it "equal" to feed all the animals in the zoo, from hummingbirds to leopards, the same diet?

I see. So you believe in a Master Race.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

The President's economic and political philosophy are entirely correct and will be vindicated by history...

Senator Obama criticized President Bush for deficit spending. President Obama said: "Spending is stimulus" and, when the political winds shifted, reaffirmed support (empty words only, so far) for deficit reduction.
Entirely correct? Which?
Moar?
I just finished Michael Lewis' __The Big Short__. Treasury saved the crooks from bankruptcy. Why? The fraud continues. Why?
Barak Obama attended a plush private school, yet he throttled the DC voucher program. Why?
"Stimulus" money saved (for now) the jobs of dues-paying members of the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel, yet competitive markets in education services improve school system performance and reduce costs. No support for parent control (vouchers, tuition tax credits). Why?
No end to the drug war. Why?

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Someone could initiate a worthwhile conversation around the tension between "differential impact" and "equality before the law". I hope to see it in this forum someday. Is it "equal" to feed all the animals in the zoo, from hummingbirds to leopards, the same diet?

I see. So you believe in a Master Race.

Ben demonstrates why the discussion of "differential impact" and "equality before the law" will have to wait.

 

[Travis]

Senator Obama criticized President Bush for deficit spending. President Obama said: "Spending is stimulus" and, when the political winds shifted, reaffirmed support (empty words only, so far) for deficit reduction.
Entirely correct? Which?

Deficit spending when the economy is good (especially when it is merely to allow tax cuts to the rich while simultaneously fighting a war) is not a good idea.

It's not such a bad idea when the economy is in the toilet. In fact it will often be the only thing that restarts the economy. When the economy rebounds, you stop.

 

[mhaze]

Deficit spending when the economy is good (especially when it is merely to allow tax cuts to the rich while simultaneously fighting a war) is not a good idea.

It's not such a bad idea when the economy is in the toilet. In fact it will often be the only thing that restarts the economy. When the economy rebounds, you stop.

Fixing a small part of your comment.

If you are an idiot socialist then you stop when you run out of other peoples' money Then you look around, puzzled, and start bleating like a pig in the slaughterhouse.

 

[rustypouch]

Fixing a small part of your comment.

If you are an idiot socialist then you stop when you run out of other peoples' money Then you look around, puzzled, and start bleating like a pig in the slaughterhouse.

Cute.

I don't understand why you imply that Democrats are fiscally irresponsible. The last time the economy was good and a Democrat was in the White House, there was a surplus, and the debt was being paid down. Remember what happened to change that?

 

[elbe]

Obama's difficulties with English would not matter so much if his promoters hadn't sold him as an intellectual.
Along with, uh, the repeated uh, "uh"s in his unscripted conversation, there's the frequent resort to "to be honest...". That's the long-winded version of "uh", with the disadvantage that it creates two classes of sentences: those prefaced with "to be honest..." and those that are not. You mean, you're lying the other times?

I'm not entirely confident that you can really draw any conclusions about someone's intellect from their public speaking skills. Some people believe there is an inverse relationship, but I tend to believe they are largely disconnected (Some smart people are terrible speakers and some average people are master orators, and everything in between).

Now, granted it's been some years and my memory isn't all that good, but I seem to recall an unscripted town hall debate in the 2008 election that Obama was well regarded over.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

I'm not entirely confident that you can really draw any conclusions about someone's intellect from their public speaking skills. Some people believe there is an inverse relationship, but I tend to believe they are largely disconnected (Some smart people are terrible speakers and some average people are master orators, and everything in between).

Now, granted it's been some years and my memory isn't all that good, but I seem to recall an unscripted town hall debate in the 2008 election that Obama was well regarded over.

Thomas Malthus spoke notoriously slowly. I knew a man with a terrible stutter who had a PhD in cellular biology. He could find wildly funny puns. Dunno if he stuttered because he couldn't decide between all the options he saw or if he had to find options to get around his stutter.

To credit intellect, what emerges has to make sense. When President Obama avoids "uh...uh...", I see a cadence that suggests thoughtful pauses but no subsequent return to the investment of time. He never rises above cliche.

 

[Olowkow]

Thomas Malthus spoke notoriously slowly. I knew a man with a terrible stutter who had a PhD in cellular biology. He could find wildly funny puns. Dunno if he stuttered because he couldn't decide between all the options he saw or if he had to find options to get around his stutter.

To credit intellect, what emerges has to make sense. When President Obama avoids "uh...uh...", I see a cadence that suggests thoughtful pauses but no subsequent return to the investment of time. He never rises above cliche.

Found any good Romney oratory yet?