People in China adopting custom-made white babies?

[Minoosh]

I wonder if surrogates in China could be used to gestate infants for Americans, using genetic material from the U.S. Kind of an extension of the wet nurse concept.

Aside from malevolent interpretations, why couldn't there be some international division of labor? So to speak.

 

[Joey McGee]

I wonder if Earth's abundance of Kryptonite is keeping Superman from saving the planet?

 

[Roboramma]

I saw that. Great advances could occur. But IMO China is kind of a black box. In my perception people live highly ordered lives, access to information is strictly controlled and individual rights are not emphasized. A different culture.

I think your perception is pretty off. Most people live their lives in a way that they want to live. Certainly the culture puts more pressure to listen to their parents than in western countries, but young people in china are making their own decisions as well. It's true that the firewall prevents access to some websites, but people in china are nevertheless pretty aware of both what's happening inside and outside of the country. Economically it's a very free society where people can easily move from one job to another, skilled workers are in high demand, and opening a small business is relatively easy (I know a lot of people who have opened their own small businesses, none of whom are particularly wealthy, or at least weren't before doing so.)

This is not the China thirty years ago.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Mrs J served as a gestational surrogate for two different families. She went through a reputable agency who arranges such things. They would never do this: one of the Intended Parents (technical term) must be a gene donor. And the surrogate can not be the egg donor. But that's just rules, company policy.

The first surrogate baby Mrs J carried was a time traveler, by the way, and she is now a time machine. He had been frozen as part of a batch, so if you count conception dates he and his 8-years-older sister are the same age.

But legally it's the Wild West out there. One couple we interviewed with (it's like blind dating for a wife swap that only goes one way and isn't fun for anyone) had done a previous surrogacy all gonzo with their own legal and financial structure and relationship structure just made up out of thin air. Seemed to work out fine but sounded like it involved way more "new best friends" with the surrogate than agency-arranged deals ended up with. While K was in play at some stage or another the case in Thailand (Philippines?) happened with an American guy and Spanish guy caught in legal limbo because the surrogate decided she didn't want queers to have a baby after all. It could never happen with a tidy, legal, professionally supervised surrogacy.

Thus, I establish I have more than a googling knowledge of surrogacy. I've read (and signed) a little red wagon load of contracts, for two completed jobs and one failed implant.

We need unified legal structure for surrogacy, just across the US, just to start with. It needs to include language preventing surrogacy where neither Intendend Parent is a gene donor, except in very unusual circumstances that would pass some kind of ethical sniff test by someone and should be required to be required to have as part of the package. The control point mechanism for enforcement is the IVF clinics.

Currently, nothing prevents the OP story from being true, legally or technically. Legally, I could get into the business of arranging them, with no more authorizations and certifications than required to own and operate a "clean shirt, optimism and a Rolodex." As long as the checks clear, we could get away with pretty much anything.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I only found one article. Not a ton of information, and I haven't finished reading it (I have to run right now), but seemed not-too-dumb.

Plausible reason: They're seeking US citizenship for their children. Long-term planning for immigration.

Alternative reason brought to you by me: They're training sleeper agents to enact a coup in the distant future

Lol, I failed to link the one article I found!

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-surrogates-idUSBRE98L0JD20130922


Short story: An American-born baby is an American Citizen. Even if adopted by Chinese parents, that child still retains her US citizenship. Having a child with US citizenship fast-tracks the citizenzhip process for the parents.

That last bit I can confirm - I've got several coworkers and one employee who have all acquired a green card the long way, then immediately turned around and requested green cards for their parents. Where the child took 10 years or so in queue, the parents took only about 3 or so. I'm inclined to think that long-term immigration planning is a plausible reason. I suspect that the Chinese parents can being requesting immigration for themselves to the US on behalf of their child, while that kid is still very young. Chances are it would massively shorten the process if they had to start from ground zero for themselves.

Of course, I'm not an immigration lawyer, and I really have a tough time making sense of the INS website. So I could be completely wrong

 

[DragonLady]

Why is it so hard to believe they simply want children with white skin? From paper white Geisha makeup to facekinis, it's pretty well establish the Chinese see white skin as being very desirable.

 

[Minoosh]

I wonder if Earth's abundance of Kryptonite is keeping Superman from saving the planet?

Joey McGee, I really don't understand your attitude here. You find this totally implausible: *Donor sperm, donor egg, IVF, surrogate mom in U.S.; infant ends up in China*.

There are 5 components to that list; exactly which part(s) do you find implausible?

I know you use hyperbole and sarcasm to make your points. It's not my style but I don't take it personally. However it is not always an effective way to communicate. You're implying I'm a crazy CT person, without stating which of the 5 elements above you base that judgment on, and I would really like to know.

 

[Joey McGee]

Sorry, I don't mean to be unhelpful, and believing nonsense isn't the same thing as thinking the world is run by lizards, I probably believe a small degree of nonsense I don't know about yet.

I think that the idea that this is a trend and happening often is not plausible and there is a lot of motivated reasoning for people to believe it because people need to believe that the Chinese wish they were American because of the fall of communism and all of that. Plus, no real evidence of it happening.

Could one person have tried it? Sure, anything could happen in a land where there is a small market for tiger penises. I just doubt it and I'll believe it when I see it, simple as that.

 

[Minoosh]

This is not the China thirty years ago.

Knowledge, if not updated, becomes ignorance. Much of what I know about Chinese society is based on writings of the 20th century. Any current information I have probably comes from either the New Yorker or the Economist. It's my understanding that Shanghai has traditionally been one of China's most sophisticated cities, populated with foreign enclaves due to opium wars etc. But I've also read that people need permission to migrate to cities; that Chinese tourists are often surprised to find the West does not match propaganda they've been fed and that the CCP, if not micromanaging everyone's lives, still calls the shots with relatively little accountability and transparency.

I don't know how closely it vets potential immigrants (vs. tourists, journalists etc.), but I'm pretty sure someone does this in some detail.

This reminds me of a semi-joke: Upon being told someone had adopted a Korean baby, my co-worker said, "North or South?"

But legally it's the Wild West out there.

Thank you for an awesome post. I'm relieved to see you providing information rather than just making fun of me. Babies are born in all sorts of circumstances, often untidy, and my main concern is that somebody really wants them in their family. I understand that my speculations can get pretty dark, but there are people on this thread saying it can't happen, period. I mean the basic 5-point plan: Donor egg, donor sperm, IVF, surrogate, the baby goes to China. If immigration isn't a factor, IMO it would make more sense to bring the surrogate bearer to China, or use a Chinese surrogate, than to open a can of red tape worms. Or a red can of tape worms.

Lol, I failed to link the one article I found!

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-surrogates-idUSBRE98L0JD20130922


Short story: An American-born baby is an American Citizen. Even if adopted by Chinese parents, that child still retains her US citizenship. Having a child with US citizenship fast-tracks the citizenzhip process for the parents.

That's a valid point. I'd be curious about who the baby's guardian is at birth, the process of obtaining a U.S. passport for an infant and receiving permission to immigrate on the Chinese end. Thanks for the link and the information! I'll read it when I'm done cleaning the carpet.

 

[Minoosh]

Could one person have tried it? Sure, anything could happen in a land where there is a small market for tiger penises. I just doubt it and I'll believe it when I see it, simple as that.

A "small" market in China might be large-ish in absolute terms. If only a tiny percentage of the population wants tiger penises, it's still bad news for tigers. All I know is this is what my friend's new GF has told him. He could be lying to me but I doubt it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't have any reason to doubt Minoosh on this. It seems odd... but there is actually some corroborating evidence that it does occur - I even linked an article from a few years ago. It might very well be a niche market, but so what? Just because it's not wide-spread prime-time news doesn't mean it's false.

I don't really understand the dismissive attitude toward Minoosh on this.

 

[Joey McGee]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I can understand a family wanting an Aryan baby. But the steps taken to achieve this, the level of effort taken by a large number of individuals, the money involved, the absolute blockbuster of a story this would be for the gossip pages, I just don't see it getting to the reality stage on a significant scale. Not even close to the tiger penis level. I could be wrong, but it sounds like National Enquirer sensationalism.

I don't doubt Minoosh is being honest, but I've learned to simply 100% disregard what people on the internet tell me. I can separate those two things. Yeah you're not a bad person and I don't believe you're lying but that's not enough to get me to the stage of taking it seriously. Call me a cynic I guess.

 

[EHocking]

I don't have any reason to doubt Minoosh on this. It seems odd... but there is actually some corroborating evidence that it does occur - I even linked an article from a few years ago. It might very well be a niche market, but so what? Just because it's not wide-spread prime-time news doesn't mean it's false.

I don't really understand the dismissive attitude toward Minoosh on this.

Generally because he seems to prefer hysterical and fantastical speculation rather than actually finding out what is actually the case.

e.g.,

I have a friend whose Chinese GF's job is finding American egg donors and American sperm donors, supervising in vitro fertilization and arranging for a surrogate to gestate the embryos who are then sent to China for adoption.

This has yet to be shown to be true.
Chinese couples are using US surrogates but with their eggs/sperm.

He then flies of into wild-eyed and baseless speculation on all sorts of "Boys from Brazil" fantasies.

... to me this seemed a lot like building an infant from spare parts to sell abroad.
...could the Chinese be harvesting not only embryos but fetuses - even viable fetuses - for genetic manipulation?
... maybe they wanted different-race babies to have a wider gene pool to manipulate.

Even after being corrected by a number of people that it is not adoption but merely surrogacy, he just continues foaming at the mouth with,

I'm the one coming up with the nefarious theories. My friend just said she got all the baby-making parts and processes fired up, then those children were adopted by Chinese. Even under that scenario, she's making babies with spare parts and shipping them to China for adoption. Which doesn't sound great.

And despite numerous corrections to his fantasies, his only "cite" is something a friend told him.

He could be lying to me but I doubt it.

I think Joey McGee's response was actually quite restrained, considering.

lol Minoosh, as if you posted something this *********** crazy and inflammatory and stupid with no source.

 

[Joey McGee]

Minoosh is a dude? Maybe I do drink too much.

 

[cullennz]

Why is it so hard to believe they simply want children with white skin? From paper white Geisha makeup to facekinis, it's pretty well establish the Chinese see white skin as being very desirable.

Because It is laughably incorrect

So tell us about the Chinese geishas

 

[EHocking]

Minoosh is a dude? Maybe I do drink too much.

I beg her pardon if that is the case.

 

[Puppycow]

Whether it's actually true or not (and more than just a small handful of cases) is one thing.

Assuming it is true, just for the sake of argument, I say: So what?

White people have been adopting black babies and Chinese babies for a while. Why can't a Chinese person adopt a white baby? Ah, but those babies weren't "custom made" so it's different, right?

In that case I guess the question is, is there anything inherently wrong with "custom making" babies? Eventually in the not-too-distant future I think that the technology will be there (think Gattaca) and the only question is, is there really any moral or ethical reason to not take advantage of the technology? Personally, I am not religious. I don't care so much about people "playing God" per se. There are some possible uses of such technology which I would probably object to, but I'm not opposed to any and all possible uses. Making sure that babies don't have terrible genetic diseases is one obvious ethical use. And in principle, I don't really have an objection to things that are mere choices, like what color of hair or eyes or even skin the baby has.

 

[Minoosh]

Generally because he seems to prefer ...

"She," please.

e.g.,
This has yet to be shown to be true.

Quite. Which is why I was asking if anyone had heard of it.

Even after being corrected by a number of people that it is not adoption but merely surrogacy, he just continues foaming at the mouth with,

Please demonstrate that a number people pointed out that it is not adoption, but surrogacy. I was asking for just such citations as the Reuters article (which I haven't been able to read; it comes up then disappears). Plus, from how my friend described it the scenario was donor egg, donor sperm, etc. I have more reason to trust him than to trust you. He may have misunderstood, but he's not a wild-eyed loon. In journalism we often start by getting tips, then digging for more information.

And despite numerous corrections to his fantasies, his only "cite" is something a friend told him.

This thread was a call for information in case anyone knew something about the subject. Some people were helpful. I also included several benign theories, as well as some less benign theories.

Bully away, if it makes you feel good. I think dismissing anything I say out of hand shows you are applying ridicule, not skeptical thinking. A skeptic would want more information.

 

[cullennz]

"She," please.

Quite. Which is why I was asking if anyone had heard of it.

Please demonstrate that several people pointed out that it is not adoption, but surrogacy. I was asking for just such citations as the Reuters article (which I haven't been able to read; it comes up then disappears). Plus, from how my friend described it the scenario was donor egg, donor sperm, etc. I have more reason to trust him than to trust you. He may have misunderstood, but he's not a wild-eyed loon. In journalism we often start by getting tips, then digging for more information.

This thread was a call for information in case anyone knew something about the subject. Some people were helpful. I also included several benign theories, as well as some less benign theories.

Bully away, if it makes you feel good.

Most claims usually require at least partial evidence

 

[Minoosh]

Most claims usually require at least partial evidence

Which is why I'm looking for citations, etc. My claims is not that it's happening. I was asking if people had information that could back up the anecdotal account.