Ed Pentagon - TruthMakesPeace

[abaddon]

There has been less than 24 hours since my post. This is not ignoring. This is having a life outside JREF. I usually ignore questions for which there is already an answer posted, or for which the answer is self evident.

Oddly, you also ignore answers for which questions were posted.

Funny that.

 

[000063]

There has been less than 24 hours since my post. This is not ignoring. This is having a life outside JREF. I usually ignore questions for which there is already an answer posted, or for which the answer is self evident.

In other words, the inconvenient ones, such as Everest being climbable without oxygen.

> a)there are towns at 10,000 feet
Irrelevant. 10,000 < 30000 fasl

What's a "fasl"?

>b)the loss of air pressure wouldn't be fast or reliable enough to knock everyone out
Invalid assumption. Air release could be very rapid.[/quote]Which would cut off people on calls, and trigger the oxygen masks, and would not be guaraunteed to knock out or kill everyone instantly. You keep vacillating between the fast and slow depressurization, but neither is workable. Either it was slow enough for people to notice, or fast enough to cut them off mid-call and trigger the masks. If it's rapid, you're not talking "air release", you're talking a pump.

>c)the loss of pressure would automatically trigger the oxygen masks.
Not if the mechanism and oxygen tanks were tampered with. Ground maintenance logs need to be disclosed and examined. Remember that cabin would become frigid, resulting in hypothermia

Forget the logs for a second. There is no way to tamper with the masks without conspicuously entering the plane. You have to literally go inside and muck about with well over a hundred panels. If that plane is in a terrorist attack, someone who's not in on the 'spiracy is going to say, "wait a minute, there were these suspicious guys..."

Also, I don't think hypothermia works like that. You're thinking Mr. Freeze, but becoming a few degrees below freezing doesn't instantly immobilize people. Planes have these things called "blankets" and "air conditioning". Did they sabotage that too? Boy, there sure are a lot of things they sabotaged without detection.

>Keep in mind that men with a similar skin color to the President...does that mean Obama...
Irrelevant utterance.

No, it demonstrates my point perfectly; just because it is possible to remote control things similar to an airplane does not necessarily mean that an airplane can be controlled.

>(Mars RC) With a significant delay, yes.
At up to 250 million miles. 9/11 planes were within thousands of miles of potential RC command centers. Response would be at the speed of light, and practically immediate.

So you admit the Rover comparison was pointless?

>Is it possible that someone might've build an RC control for a jet? Yes.
That is logical.

>Is it possible for them to have covertly installed it on an airplane without anyone realizing someone was up? Nope.
That is illogical.

No it's not. It would require extensive modification. As in, installing a new computer.

Look at the 2 photos (previous post) of men working on a Cabin Air Pressure Outflow Valve (CAPOV). Who would suspect he is doing anything suspicious, especially before 9/11? They look like workers just doing their job.

Well, if they had to modify the oxygen masks and the flight control systems as well, someone might find that suspicious. Do you have any idea how O2 masks are triggered?

 

[TruthersLie]

Suspected perps. They are innocent until judged guilty in a Court of Law.


The Cabin Outflow Valve (COV) could have been modified to be forced open by a Remote Control (RC) device, and should have been examined in the wreckage (if recognizable). Loss of air pressure would suffocate the crew, passengers, and duped hijackers (who may have thought it was a regular hijacking) at high altitude (30000 fasl), along with hypothermia. Enhanced RC of the Flight Management System (FMS) could navigate the planes to hit their target buildings. Flight Data Recorders (FDRs) record cabin pressure, but were "not found" or had "no useful data".

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/193154de3f65a08027.jpg[/qimg] [qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/193154de3e831cfabb.jpg[/qimg] [qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/193154de3e932c67d7.jpg[/qimg] [qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_193154de3ea4e12bca.jpg[/qimg]

Is RC possible? Keep in mind that Drones over Pakistan are controlled from Nevada (12194 km or 7577 miles). NASA controls devices on the Mars Rover every day (distance from Earth varies from 36 to 250 million miles).
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_193154de3ed9165479.jpg[/qimg] [qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_193154de3ece785792.jpg[/qimg]
Photos from www.911Pentagon.org and www.911Pentagon.org/Apathoid
Thanks to JREF for ideas.

Other than the fact that the technical analysis that I provided to you shows that it would be almost impossible to modify the existing jets w/out someone noticing.

So now the flight crews, the ground crews and the airlines are in on it... just like the SEC, the FBI and numerous other folks. So we get the Rube Goldberg conspiracy theory

wouldn't it have been easier just to recruit 4 suicide pilots and crash jets into buildings?

 

[Andy_Ross]

There has been less than 24 hours since my post. This is not ignoring, just being busy.
> a)there are towns at 10,000 feet
Irrelevant. 10,000 is significantly less than "at high altitude (30000 fasl)"

>b)the loss of air pressure wouldn't be fast or reliable enough to knock everyone out
Invalid assumption. Air would rush out rapidly at 30000 fasl, along with warmth.

What altitude was the aircraft at when your bombs blew the windows out?

 

[Craig4]

Suspected perps. They are innocent until judged guilty in a Court of Law.


The Cabin Outflow Valve (COV) could have been modified to be forced open by a Remote Control (RC) device, and should have been examined in the wreckage (if recognizable). Loss of air pressure would suffocate the crew, passengers, and duped hijackers (who may have thought it was a regular hijacking) at high altitude (30000 fasl), along with hypothermia. Enhanced RC of the Flight Management System (FMS) could navigate the planes to hit their target buildings. Flight Data Recorders (FDRs) record cabin pressure, but were "not found" or had "no useful data".

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/193154de3f65a08027.jpg[/qimg] [qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/193154de3e831cfabb.jpg[/qimg] [qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/193154de3e932c67d7.jpg[/qimg] [qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_193154de3ea4e12bca.jpg[/qimg]

Is RC possible? Keep in mind that Drones over Pakistan are controlled from Nevada (12194 km or 7577 miles). NASA controls devices on the Mars Rover every day (distance from Earth varies from 36 to 250 million miles).
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_193154de3ed9165479.jpg[/qimg] [qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_193154de3ece785792.jpg[/qimg]
Photos from www.911Pentagon.org and www.911Pentagon.org/Apathoid
Thanks to JREF for ideas.

Who cares? Could have doesn't matter. What did happen? Bill Bradley would fire you at this point.

 

[jaydeehess]

Shall we 'nutshell' TMP's scenario and its many problems;

1) Sudden depressurization caused the occupants to pass out or die.
a) By way of blowing out windows.
PROBLEM: This would severly affect the handling of the aircraft, could easily lead to complete failure of the airframe, and leave a debris trail (that was not found).
b) by remote control of the air outflow valve
PROBLEM:Very slow if the effect is to occur quickly this would not suffice.

Both scenarios require the oxygen mask systems to also fail as well as the separate ones for the pilots.

I need to add to this of course. I was rushed when originally posted

PROBLEM: Even a quick release of pressure is going to be noticed not only by the a/c systems, which would have to be disabled, it would also be noticed by the human occupants well before unconsciousness. Thus let us list the systems that have to be modified or disabled.

Out flow valve
emergency oxygen systems both in the cabin and cockpit
radio communications (pan pan pan or mayday)
transponder codes
All flight controls including engines must fail to respond to pilot inputs. In a hydralically controlled a/c this would mean severing the control lines from the cockpit. Even if the flight controls are down the pilots can still descend by reducing engine power so this too has to be disabled
airphones
cell phone jamming must be instituted

Given that all of the above would have to be in place to ensure no actions by occupants can subvert the intended action of disabling the occupants or allow occupants to communicate the issue to ground personnel, One cannot help but notice that instituting all but the first two in the above list would make those two rather a moot/redundant issue.

If the pilots have no control, and both pilots and passengers have no communications then why even bother putting them to sleep or killing them prior to crashing the aircraft into the Pentagon?


Then again rather than open one's operation up to discovery by tampering with this aircraft so extensively when, according to the scenario so far, there are persons on board already committed to hijacking the aircraft and who belong to a group no unaccustomed to suicide missions. Why not simply LET them attempt to crash the aircraft into the Pentagon themselves?

As far as freezing the occupants I have walked outside at -40 degrees(C and F intersect at this temp) wearing only a t-shirt, jeans and running shoes for a period of time long enough to relieve myself of a few beers (party on, the bathroom line up was long, and the backyard bushes offered some concealment). Although shivering by the time this was accomplished I certainly still managed to move about and suffered no frostbite. The incident we are concerned with took place in Sept. and it is quite possible that passengers would be wearing a long sleeve shirt or even a light jacket which would extend the time to hypothermic incapacitation.(BTW alcohol DECREASES this time by keeping skin temp higher and resulting in a quicker loss of overall -ie.internal- heat. It subverts the normal body reaction of withdrawing blood from the extremities meaning you can move better but for a shorter time.)

 

[jaydeehess]

Now I see that TMP has this depressurization occuring at 30,000 feet in order to better ensure occupant disabling. Ok so how long was the aircraft in question actually at or above FL300 after the last actual AA pilot's radio communication?

 

[DGM]

Ground maintenance logs need to be disclosed and examined.

This is some impressive "shoe-horning" TMP is using to make his theory "work". I love the "maintenance log" bit. What is the log code for "prepare plane for remote take over"? I wonder what he would look for if he saw the logs? I suppose any work would be "suspicion".

I think we need him to go on with his "evidence". This is entertaining.

 

[George 152]

Now I see that TMP has this depressurization occuring at 30,000 feet in order to better ensure occupant disabling. Ok so how long was the aircraft in question actually at or above FL300 after the last actual AA pilot's radio communication?

It would appear that he has no knowledge as to the pressurisation of aircraft and probably thinks that it's set to 1012mb
And there's always the fact that, above a certain altitude, one crew member is on oxygen so the crew would be aware of the situation and descend to an altitude where they could continue the flight while reporting the fault to ATC and their company.
Neither of the above occurred

 

[DGM]

It would appear that he has no knowledge as to the pressurisation of aircraft and probably thinks that it's set to 1012mb
And there's always the fact that, above a certain altitude, one crew member is on oxygen so the crew would be aware of the situation and descend to an altitude where they could continue the flight while reporting the fault to ATC and their company.
Neither of the above occurred

I'm fairly sure that the "oxygen" rule only applies when one of the two pilots are not in their seats.

So many other things are wrong with his "theory" that it doesn't really matter.

 

[Childlike Empress]

You are way out of your depth and losing badly. When in a hole,stop digging.

You seem to have missed what Oystein delivered.

 

[dafydd]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/9907451897c0442ad.gif[/qimg]

You seem to have missed what Oystein delivered.

You're quoting posts which prove you wrong? Yes,that is funny. Any news on the working hypothesis?

 

[dafydd]

So Child - what exactly IS your opinion on what happened in DC?

The working hypothesis will remain a dark secret. That is the truther way of instigating a new investigation.

 

[jaydeehess]

The working hypothesis will remain a dark secret. That is the truther way of instigating a new investigation.

Well D'uh.

9/11 conspiracists do not have or need a hypothesis. The beginning point is to first establish that all pronouncements coming from any other camp are false as concerns what occured.(direct evidence not required a simple pronouncement will suffice) From there you demand a new independant* investigation.

* an independant investigation is defined, in this case, as one comprised of those who already lean towards, sympathize with, or are directly connected with the particular 9/11 conspiracist group concerned. For instance, while no NIST representative would be welcomed by a CiT biased 'independant' investigation group, neither would anyone associated with the Judy Wood adherents.

 

[fess]

There has been less than 24 hours since my post. This is not ignoring, just being busy.
> a)there are towns at 10,000 feet
Irrelevant. 10,000 is significantly less than "at high altitude (30000 fasl)"

Is “fasl” a foreign word?

>b)the loss of air pressure wouldn't be fast or reliable enough to knock everyone out
Invalid assumption. Air would rush out rapidly at 30000 fasl, along with warmth.

How fast is “rapidly”? In the absence of an explosive decompression, would the outflow valves allow for 3000/ft per minute? 6000? To give you the benefit of doubt, let’s say 6000ft/min. In a little over one minute, both alarms would go off and the oxygen masks would deploy. It would still take almost 4 minutes for the cabin altitude to climb to 30000ft. Don’t you think the pax and crew would notice something is amiss?

>c)the loss of pressure would automatically trigger the oxygen masks.
Not if the mechanism and oxygen tanks were tampered with. Ground maintenance logs need to be disclosed and examined. Also, the cabin would become frigid. Hypothermia is debilitating.

Moving the goalposts now, are we? So far, to stay within your theory, you have dismantled half of this aircraft. And by the way, the maintenance logs for all four of the aircraft used on 911 were turned over to the FAA and the NTSB. That is common practice.

>(Mars RC) With a significant delay, yes.
At up to 250 million miles. 9/11 planes were within thousands of miles of potential RC command centers. Response would be at the speed of light, warp factor 1, and practically immediate.

One more time, the remote flying of a 757/767 aircraft is impossible. Unless...

>Is it possible that someone might've build an RC control for a jet? Yes.
That is logical.

...this was already done a while back, with a B707/720B. Not counting the R&D, it took over 1500 man/hours to install the system. The aircraft was extremely hard to fly, but was very easy to crash.

>Is it possible for them to have covertly installed it on an airplane without anyone realizing someone was up? Nope.
That is not logical. Look at the 2 photos (previous post) of men working on a Cabin Air Pressure Outflow Valve (CAPOV). Who would suspect he is doing anything suspicious, especially before 9/11? They look like workers just doing their job.

First of all, neither one of the aircraft pictured is a B757/767. One picture is of a military aircraft, and the other was taken in a maintenance facility. The worker in that picture is not working on an outflow valve. If he were, don’t you think the maintenance supervisor and the FAA inspector would question why? Oh, and BTW, looking at what the worker is using for a work platform, there is one organization that may be interested in the photo…OSHA.

 

[JohnG]

Is “fasl” a foreign word?

Feet Above Sea Level

 

[fess]

Feet Above Sea Level

As in 30000ft ASL

 

[TJM]

As in 30000ft ASL

Yes. JohnG once again demonstrates his uncanny ability to translate Trutherese into a language understood by people who know what the **** they're talking about.

 

[000063]

...this was already done a while back, with a B707/720B. Not counting the R&D, it took over 1500 man/hours to install the system. The aircraft was extremely hard to fly, but was very easy to crash.

Just for TMP's benefit, how long does a standard maintenance inspection for a 767 take?

 

[dafydd]

Well D'uh.

9/11 conspiracists do not have or need a hypothesis. The beginning point is to first establish that all pronouncements coming from any other camp are false as concerns what occured.(direct evidence not required a simple pronouncement will suffice) From there you demand a new independant* investigation.

* an independant investigation is defined, in this case, as one comprised of those who already lean towards, sympathize with, or are directly connected with the particular 9/11 conspiracist group concerned. For instance, while no NIST representative would be welcomed by a CiT biased 'independant' investigation group, neither would anyone associated with the Judy Wood adherents.

If the 911 conspiracy fraternity do not believe the official story (aka reality) then they must have another story in mind. I want to know what their various stories are but none of them will confide in me.