Ed Pentagon - TruthMakesPeace

[oody]

I kind of look at the landing versus crashing into a building argument like this: Crashing into a building is like flying your craft through one giant hula hoop. Landing your craft is like flying it through 10 or 15 giant hula hoops, with speed constraints as well. So, clearly, one is much easier than the other. Some of the arguments Truthers make are at least a little bit compelling, but this is not one of them. When a Truther makes the claim that landing a craft is easier than guiding the craft into a target, they just plain lose credibility. I recommend giving more thought to each individual argument one espouses, and stick with the stronger ones and not spend so much time advocating the clearly weak ones. It makes you lose credibility. The traction you gain with a compelling argument is rapidly lost when you follow up with a clearly silly notion.

 

[Mr. Skinny]

Thanks for the ridiculous egotistical premise.

It's far from a ridiculous premise.

As regards ego, Beachnut is pretty low on the ego scale for an Air Force pilot.

I suppose I'd have a bit of inflated ego too if I could fly a jet aircraft, and if you think Beachnut is egotistical, you should go meet the pilots of the F-22s down at Tyndall AFB. Biggest bunch of peacocks I ever met, but you know what - they deserve to be proud of their accomplishments. The amount of education and training you need to fly those aircraft boggles the mind. All for the privledge of risking your life to fly them.

Unless and until I'm capable of their accomplishments, I'll let them brag a bit.

 

[jaydeehess]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
You're views and the swooping/hovering of your ilk are purveyors of disinformation. The everybody is an idiot refrains, the off the wall questions and requests for this and that make your intent obvious.


At least my error was an oversight as opposed to a lack of comprehension.

Oh, I knew full well that your use of the word 'your' was correct in the post, and I had no problem understanding what you were attempting to say. I was simply pointing out that it is quite ironic when you contend that someone else is an idiot in a post in which you mis-use a contraction.

 

[Justin39640]

That was incredible. The following is a once in a lifetime Peter Pan classic.

My experiences with sims is that is exactly the case. I can hit a building every time. Trying to miss it (CIT flyover style) is almost impossible. Landing is somewhere in between.

(check out the HD version)

 

[jaydeehess]

Flying on 911 was entry level, hitting a building is easier than landing.

Thanks for the ridiculous egotistical premise.

Beechnut is, of course, quite right. A standard 360 turn is two minutes. IIRC Hani turned through 330 degrees no faster than that. IOW he was turning through 330 degrees at the same rate or slower than a student pilot's two minute turn.

As far as descending through such a turn its actually more involved to maintain a level altitude while turning than it is to descend while turning. When banked you lose part of the lift component that is vertical (the wings 'lift' in a direction perpendicular to the wings) thus if one maintains a constant air speed AND banks, one will lose altitude!

Hani was all over the controls of the a/c banking more then less then more again, he was working the rudder and yawing all over the place and did not IIRC lose altitude smoothly either (pushing and pulling on the yoke).

All this and wow!,,,, he managed to hit a 300 foot long by 77 foot high wall after finally straightening out and THEN hitting the throttles!

CM, its quite possible that with a few lessons even you could have accomplished what Hani did.

 

[twinstead]

Thanks for the ridiculous egotistical premise.

I can't believe some dude on an internet forum basically telling an experienced pilot he doesn't know what he is talking about has the balls to even say that, but whatever helps you sleep at night.

 

[Andy_Ross]

How many of the ground crew that serviced the 4 aircraft were in on it? Was it just the ones who did the last service or was the equipment fitted earlier? What about the Aircrew? didn't they notice any new bits added to their aircraft?

 

[Justin39640]

How many of the ground crew that serviced the 4 aircraft were in on it? Was it just the ones who did the last service or was the equipment fitted earlier? What about the Aircrew? didn't they notice any new bits added to their aircraft?

Flight crew to pilots over intercom: "Um guys... someone stuck a Tomahawk in the ass end of this thing."

 

[Mr. Skinny]

Although I think I could hit the Pentagon or the WTC towers in a simulator, I must admit that when I flew an F-16 simulator in the USAF Flight Dynamics Lab, I got smoked by two bandits about 30 seconds after I rotated off the deck.

In my defense, I had no instruction on instruments/controls and my mission was to "take off and see if you can kill your enemy".

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Give TMP credit, he has a "theory" just as people have demanded of several other posters across the forum. Now all he needs to do is show the evidence that the passengers were gassed and that the hijackers really had no motivation for their plans to involve suicide.

A "theory" needs to be supported with definitive evidence, not with baseless speculation.

 

[Clayton Moore]

911 terrorist flying was bad entry level at best. Looks at the bank angle control.

[qimg]http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/11BankAnglecompare.jpg[/qimg]
The bank angle should be smooth like the airline pilot. Entry level, actually worse than entry level. All the pilots I have trained with were able to line up and land on their first try in their first plane ride, in their first jet flight, in the first T-38 flight, in their first KC-135 flight.

On my first flight in a prop plane without training (like your first time) I landed the plane on center line, on speed.
On my first flight in a jet trainer I landed the Jet on center line, first time.
[qimg]http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/37org.jpg[/qimg] First time, good landing.
On my first flight in the jet in my avatar, I land on center line first time.
In this type jet, the one in the leading, the first time I landed was perfect. (so was the last)
[qimg]http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/1tankerflight.jpg[/qimg]


Flying on 911 was entry level, hitting a building is easier than landing.

You live in a fantasy world where reality is fantasy, and fantasy is your reality. Some people can't fly as good as terrorists, Balsamo and his failed pilot club claim they are worse than terrorists, can't hit buildings with a plane.

I put my daughters in a simulator, she hit the WTC first try, no flight training. I gave check-rides in simulators for large jets and gave orientation flights to people who had never flown. I have flown with kids who could aim and guide a plane with no training, and that was in a small plane harder to fly than a large jet.

It is math. - For landing you have to be lined up, a single heading. To hit a building you can line up, pick any of infinite headings, and change it as you go.

[qimg]http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/1WTCinfinitecourses.jpg[/qimg]
Do you understand infinite courses to hit a building, one course to land on?

I have a problem with a novice pilot making perfect course adjustments at almost 600 MPH.

 

[beachnut]

I have a problem with a novice pilot making perfect course adjustments at almost 600 MPH.

You have the speed wrong, he did the line up at about 300 knots, do you try to look up the facts before making up stuff?
There was no perfect course adjustment. I tried to explain, there are infinite courses to hit the Pentagon, in 3D, and in a vehicle that has 6 degrees of freedom.

Hani was flying about 300 knots for his line up! I first flew Boeing Jets in 1976, and they love 300 knots. 300 knots is close to the ideal speed! After Hani lined up, he shoved the throttles up and went from 300 knots to 488 knots in about 20 seconds to CRASH into the Pentagon.

What experience do you have in flying? I only have 38 years of flying experience. What do you have?

No big deal, see that jet in my avatar? I flew that for almost 6 months, went supersonic, pulled 7.33gs, did aerobatics, had a great time and earned my wings. You are supporting liars, I served my country and if idiots tried something like 911, I would stop them! What would you do? You support liars. One thing I learned from my instructors in the USAF, high school, college, was to exercise judgment based on knowledge - not to follow the rules, to be right, to do what is right, to use your knowledge to make sound judgment. Judgment, exercise it -

 

[fess]

I have a problem with a novice pilot making perfect course adjustments at almost 600 MPH.

Your so called "novice" pilot was a licensed commercial pilot... remember? What license do you hold?
You don't convert speeds well do you?

 

[Clayton Moore]

You have the speed wrong, he did the line up at about 300 knots, do you try to look up the facts before making up stuff?
There was no perfect course adjustment. I tried to explain, there are infinite courses to hit the Pentagon, in 3D, and in a vehicle that has 6 degrees of freedom.

Hani was flying about 300 knots for his line up! I first flew Boeing Jets in 1976, and they love 300 knots. 300 knots is close to the ideal speed! After Hani lined up, he shoved the throttles up and went from 300 knots to 488 knots in about 20 seconds to CRASH into the Pentagon.

What experience do you have in flying? I only have 38 years of flying experience. What do you have?

No big deal, see that jet in my avatar? I flew that for almost 6 months, went supersonic, pulled 7.33gs, did aerobatics, had a great time and earned my wings. You are supporting liars, I served my country and if idiots tried something like 911, I would stop them! What would you do? You support liars. One thing I learned from my instructors in the USAF, high school, college, was to exercise judgment based on knowledge - not to follow the rules, to be right, to do what is right, to use your knowledge to make sound judgment. Judgment, exercise it -

Sorry I don't give a hoot what you say your credentials are.

The guy had to make three decisions to hit the building. Height, distance and accuracy while coming out of, as I've read, a sharp turn in conjunction with a steep dive.

 

[beachnut]

Sorry I don't give a hoot what you say your credentials are.

The guy had to make three decisions to hit the building. Height, distance and accuracy while coming out of, as I've read, a sharp turn in conjunction with a steep dive.

No steep dive, no sharp turn. You have been mislead and don't do research.

I said I had fun flying high proformas jets, going super sonic, doing aerobatics. This is not credentials it is school for me, I enjoyed it. You failed to comprehend, I said, NO big deal, I had fun flying, and would turn in idiots who lied and made up junk like you prefer!

When you fly there is only one decision, what you are going to "hit". In a plane we have 6 degrees of freedom, which you have no clue what I am talking about because you have no clue.

No steep dive, you are spreading lies and you can't do basic research.
No sharp turn it was lazy, sloppy, not sharp, you can't do basic research, the turn was over 5 miles wide, Sharp? LOL

2000 feet per minute is not a steep dive, you came up short again.

Hani averaged 1819.9 feet per minute decent, this is not steep! You want to know what is steep? I can do 15,000 feet per minute decent, now that is steep! 15,000 is steep, Hani averaged 1800, almost 10 times less than steep! You failed, you need to listen to a real pilot, not 911 truth. Why are you knowledge free on flying issues?



Dude, the terrorist flew about 300 knots until the last 20 seconds, try to get something right. No steep dive, no sharp turn.

 

[The Platypus]

Sorry I don't give a hoot what you say your credentials are.

The guy had to make three decisions to hit the building. Height, distance and accuracy while coming out of, as I've read, a sharp turn in conjunction with a steep dive.

And noone give's a hoot what your delusions are.

I'll sooner listen to the people with credentials, than some arrogant guy on the internet with none, who instantly believes some crap he read on some conspiracy website made by some other nutty guy.

 

[000063]

Thanks for the ridiculous egotistical premise.

Ad Hominem.

Quelle surprise.

I kind of look at the landing versus crashing into a building argument like this: Crashing into a building is like flying your craft through one giant hula hoop. Landing your craft is like flying it through 10 or 15 giant hula hoops, with speed constraints as well.

Seems more like 10 or 15 somewhat smaller hoops.

 

[twinstead]

Sorry I don't give a hoot what you say your credentials are.

The guy had to make three decisions to hit the building. Height, distance and accuracy while coming out of, as I've read, a sharp turn in conjunction with a steep dive.

It appears you believe EVERYTHING you read that supports your position, no questions asked. Do you know that that means? It means, frankly, that nobody gives a hoot what you think.

 

[000063]

I served my country and if idiots tried something like 911, I would stop them!

Beachnut, what proof do you have that people who have vowed their lives in the service of their country wouldn't hesitate to help murder thousands in cold blood and then sit on the information for ten years?

(I'm being sarcastic, just so it's clear.)

It appears you believe EVERYTHING you read that supports your position, no questions asked. Do you know that that means? It means, frankly, that nobody gives a hoot what you think.

I do. The guy's a hoot.

 

[jaydeehess]

Sorry I don't give a hoot what you say your credentials are.

The guy had to make three decisions to hit the building. Height, distance and accuracy while coming out of, as I've read, a sharp turn in conjunction with a steep dive.

You have already been informed that a two minute 330 degree turn is a standard turn rate for even student pilots.
Therefore NO sharp turn.

Hani averaged 1800 f/m in his descent.

at a pokey 100 MPH ground speed that would be a descent angle of 11.5 degrees, not considered steep. If he was going twice as fast (ground speed) 200 MPH it would be a 5.8 degree descent. (get it? the faster one goes in ground speed while maintaining a constant descent rate means a shallower descent)

Therefore No steep descent.