Pedophiles are not Child Molesters

[bluesjnr]

I can't help thinking about that old chestnut... you know the one where a rampant homophobe is often accused of being a closet homosexual. Does it apply in this case?

 

[DragonLady]

I would try to help the child, instead.

Okay; next time we're in that situation we'll compare notes after the fact.

I've never been there (knock on wood), but I did grow up in foster care, and I'll never forget what some of those kids were going through.

 

[Dr.Sid]

Pedophiles are not child molesters ? Sounds too complicated for this forum ..
And look ! It is.

 

[Belz...]

Okay; next time we're in that situation we'll compare notes after the fact.

I've never been there (knock on wood), but I did grow up in foster care, and I'll never forget what some of those kids were going through.

I can see that, what with you running away and chasing the perp. It was a good thing that I was there to take the kid to a hospital.

 

[DragonLady]

I can see that, what with you running away and chasing the perp. It was a good thing that I was there to take the kid to a hospital.

(nods)

Okay; that works for me.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Pedophiles are not child molesters ? Sounds too complicated for this forum ..
And look ! It is.

On the forum collective ability to grasp sophisticated concepts this falls between "being anti-Israel isn't the same as being anti-Semitic" and "nontheistic religions exist".

 

[3point14]

Because as the OP pointed out, abstinence only doesn't work very well.

You'll have to walk me through that logic. There are some steps I don't understand.

The only way the above works is if you think that it's inevitable that a pedophile will molest a child?

Do you think that's the case?

If not, can you take me from one to the other.



And, assuming that it is the case that you believe that a pedophile will inevitably act on their urges, do you believe that of all paraphilias? That all persons suffering from a paraphilia will inevitably act on them? Is that your contention?

 

[3point14]

by "bloody, crying mess" I meant a raped child.

The raped child that was explicitly excluded from the hypothetical when it was laid down? The one you invented? That raped child?

 

[theprestige]

Sorry, but I disagree.

I cannot see how refusing to have sympathy for the desire to hurt children somehow stops someone who has that desire to go to counseling or take medications.

I am generally in favor of medical professionals looking for healthy outlets for those with all kinds of...proclivities...or to find techniques that are satisfying for those unable to act on their desires.

But that is not the discussion I see happening here.*

It's exactly the discussion happening here, for everyone except you, who came out vehemently and wrongheadedly against that discussion.

*I cede the OP may have been trying to start that discussion.

Thank you for finally trying to think about what I actually wrote. Please continue.

Is there any particular reason a pedophile would be going to DragonLady for help rather than going to any licensed medical practitioner? I might have missed that part.

Part of what I'm "trying" to talk about is the prevalence of DragonLady's attitude towards pedophiles, and the pernicious effect this has on pedophiles in our society, and on our treatment of them.

I suppose so...but then what is the point of a thread like this?

People in prison, people sent to convents, people in slavery, people in the space station...people in all kinds of places and positions have been forced to keep it to themselves.

They survive.

They do, but it sucks. It sucks for people in prison. It sucks for people sent to convents (is that even a thing anymore?). It sucks for people in slavery. It probably sucks for people in space, but at least for astronauts there's a strong selection bias and a rigorous vetting process for the people in that role. People for whom sexual sublimation doesn't come easy are probably going to wash out of the astronaut qualification process. Knowing that their time in space is temporary, and that they can seek out all the nookie they want on their return, probably helps quite a bit as well.

There's supposed to be a selection bias and vetting process for Catholic priests too, but it seems the Church has been half-assing it for centuries. With predictably sordid and corrupt results.

And people in prison and in convents and in slavery don't always stay celibate. Because sexual sublimation sucks. I bet even astronauts have trouble keeping it in their pants on the longer missions.

One of the best things about sexual sublimation is knowing you're not gonna die of it, and there are healthy outlets available to nearly all. For those few under 24 hour surveillance or lacking arms or whatever, I do have sympathy. But for those looking sideways at children, I do not.

The point of this thread is that for pedophiles, "looking sideways at children" is not a choice, it's an illness. You should not withhold sympathy for them on that basis.

 

[DragonLady]

You'll have to walk me through that logic. There are some steps I don't understand.

Actually, I doubt that. I think you understand. But, I'll try to spell it out, anyway.

The only way the above works is if you think that it's inevitable that a pedophile will molest a child?

The OP -and many, many others- is trying to make a distinction between the person who merely wishes to have sex with children and the person who has, in fact, had sex with children.

I believe those who have sex with children probably fall into two camps:

Those who are exclusively attracted to children, and thus can only be satisfied through acts that somehow include them -at least mentally. In that case, I think it's inevitable they will eventually act on them in some way. Whether it's a way that's harmful like actually raping a child or not. Abstinence only doesn't work for anyone else, so I don't think it works for pedophiles.

The other camp being opportunistic predators who don't care who they're hurting. Be it a small child or a wrinkled grandmother, they're just as dangerous but to a larger pool of people.

If a person of either camp is insightful enough to recognize they have these urges, but self-controlled enough to seek help before they've acted on them I think we could safely call it an obsession or a mental distortion. But...to be honest...I think those are the unicorns.

Do you think that's the case?

Yes; I do. I realize that you -and probably many others here don't believe it.

I believe that in trying to form a distinction that gains popular acceptance, these predators are opening the doors for defense strategies in the future that will help them avoid the consequences for their crimes.

And, assuming that it is the case that you believe that a pedophile will inevitably act on their urges, do you believe that of all paraphilias? That all persons suffering from a paraphilia will inevitably act on them? Is that your contention?

I'm not sure about all of them, but it's certainly true of most. Of course, most paraphilias aren't damaging, and few are as absolutely devastating as child molestation can be.

 

[theprestige]

True. They should not come to me for help. If I'm in a good mood I'll tell them to call a doctor. Otherwise....

Otherwise what?

Someone comes to you and says, "I think I'm sexually attracted to children. I haven't acted on this attraction, but it scares me a lot that I might. What should I do?"

If you're in a good mood, you'll tell them to call a doctor. If you're not in a good mood, then what?

 

[3point14]

Yes; I do. I realize that you -and probably many others here don't believe it.

At least I've found the disconnect. It seems you believe that all those suffering from a paraphillia will act on it given the opportunity.

This leads to the disturbing conclusion that you believes that those suffering from necrophilia will inevitably go out and dig up a body to ****.


And that all of these illnesses:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_paraphilias

Will inevitably result in the physically fulfillment of desire if it is physically possible.


I don't think your worldview holds water.

 

[Chanakya]

Nice thread, theprestige. Made me think.

Agreed, pedophilia itself isn't to be condemned, but probably actually commiserated with. Wholly topsy turvy though that might sound at first glance.

A bit like 'sadist' I guess, a term used mainly to denigrate.

And agreed: if heterosexuals can be trusted not to grab the first hot chick they see, no reason why pedophiles, and sadists too, cannot be trusted to keep their instincts in check. Except, of course, when they don't.



Since we're talking seriously here about this condition instead of simply crying for pedophiles to be burnt at the stake: I wonder if pedophiles are generally attracted exclusively to kids, or if it's an 'also' thing. Cases where it's the latter, then probably the picture isn't as bleak, for them, as your OP paints it.

 

[DragonLady]

And people in prison and in convents and in slavery don't always stay celibate. Because sexual sublimation sucks. I bet even astronauts have trouble keeping it in their pants on the longer missions.

Then why do you believe pedophiles do???

Explain to me your reasoning for believing they never act on their urges?

 

[theprestige]

I can't help thinking about that old chestnut... you know the one where a rampant homophobe is often accused of being a closet homosexual. Does it apply in this case?

Jesus Christ, dude. No. Just no. Please don't do this. The thread is already difficult enough without you injecting this crap into it.

 

[Belz...]

Abstinence only doesn't work for anyone else, so I don't think it works for pedophiles.

That's a fair point.

And that's they need to be identified and treated.

 

[DragonLady]

Otherwise what?

Someone comes to you and says, "I think I'm sexually attracted to children. I haven't acted on this attraction, but it scares me a lot that I might. What should I do?"

If you're in a good mood, you'll tell them to call a doctor. If you're not in a good mood, then what?

I don't know.

I hope I never have to find out.

Don't you?

 

[Belz...]

Explain to me your reasoning for believing they never act on their urges?

Do all single straight men eventually rape someone?

 

[Dr.Sid]

Indeed. Pedophile is no more child abuser, than sexually normal man is a raper.
There has also always been debate about child pornography. Of course, you have child pornography made misusing real children. That's clearly bad.
But then you have cartoons, CGI, or child-like adult models. In many jurisdictions, this one is equally bad. There are however arguments, that once it's created ethically, it can help pedophiles to keep their urges under control. And other arguments, which says, that it will actually make they urges stronger.
The right path is just one. With complex topics you just can't expect it to be straight and simple.

 

[DragonLady]

That's a fair point.

And that's they need to be identified and treated.

Okay; I'll give you that.

Do we have a way to identify them before they've victimized someone?

Do we have reliable ways to treat them, so that they're extremely unlikely to pose a danger to anyone?