Peace Plan - "Accept it or face more violence."

webfusion said:
Israel acts ethically. Its military, its political echelon, its Fifth Estate, all are moral and perform well within the norms of civilized humanity.
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I wish that were true. You have a deep bias my friend. My great fear is that the bias which you and many on both sides have will be the biggest impediment to a lasting peace.
 
I wish that were true.
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It is true. There is plenty of evidence to support that.


Just a reminder -- speaking of "biases" -- back in post 108 of this thread, you were calling Israelis the terrorists. That certainly places you in a fairly biased position, I would say.
 
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webfusion said:
It is true. There is plenty of evidence to support that.


Just a reminder -- speaking of "biases" -- back in post 108 of this thread, you were calling Israelis the terrorists. That certainly places you in a fairly biased position, I would say.
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Thankfully not all Israelis find these issues so cut and dry. There is lots of evidence to counter your claims too. You seem to ignore it.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Published on Wednesday, December 3, 2003 by the Guardian/UK [/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] 'We're Air Force Pilots, not Mafia. We Don't Take Revenge'
Israel's F-16 and Black Hawk refuseniks say why they could not obey illegal orders and kill innocent Palestinians
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]by Chris McGreal in Tel Aviv[/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For two months, a rebel group of Israeli Black Hawk helicopter and F-16 fighter pilots has been denounced as traitors for saying they will no longer bomb Palestinian cities. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Until now they have maintained a resolute silence on their motives, preferring to limit their criticism of Ariel Sharon's war to a letter signed by 27 reserve and active duty pilots refusing to carry out what they described as illegal orders, and denouncing the occupation as eating at the moral fabric of Israel. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"I served more than seven years as a pilot," said Captain Alon R, who, like all the younger pilots, hopes to return to combat flying and so declines to use his full name in order to retain his security clearance. "In the beginning, we were pilots who believed our country would do all it could to achieve peace. We believed in the purity of our arms and that we did all we could to prevent unnecessary loss of life. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Somewhere in the last few years it became harder and harder to believe that is the case." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The line was crossed for most of the pilots with the dropping of the one-tonne bomb last year on the home of a Hamas military leader, Salah Shehade, killing him and 14 of his family, mostly children. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]One captain described the bombing as deliberate killing, murder even. Another called it state terrorism, though some colleagues swiftly stomped on that interpretation. But they all agreed that the attack sowed the doubts that resulted a year later in the letter that sent shockwaves through the Israeli military. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"The Shehade incident was a red light for us, a final warning," said Capt Alon R. "With Shehade I began to re-evaluate my beliefs. We killed 14 innocent people, nine of them children. After my commander gave an interview in which he said he sleeps well at night and his men can do the same. Well, I can't. We refused to see it as an innocent mistake."...[/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Lieutenant-Colonel Avner Raanan is among the most respected pilots to have signed the letter. He served for 27 years and was awarded one of Israel's highest military decorations in 1994. "If you look at the past three years, you see that, if we had a suicide bombing, the Israeli air force made a big operation in which civilians were killed, and that looks to innocent eyes like revenge," he said. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"You hear it in the streets of Israel; people want revenge. But we should not behave like that. We are not a mafia."
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]At its core, the letter questions the legality of the "targeted assassinations" that have claimed the lives of more civilian bystanders than their Hamas, Islamic Jihad and al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade targets. In October, 14 civilians were killed when the air force fired missiles at a car in Gaza's Nuseirat refugee camp. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Is it legitimate to take F-15's and helicopters designed to destroy enemy tanks, and use them against cars and houses in one of the most heavily populated places in the world?" Capt Alon R asked. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Because of the terrorism, we have become blinded by the blood on our own faces. We cannot see that on the other side, beside the terrorists, is a whole nation of innocent people. It's important that we recognize that, and that, as military people, we say that."[/FONT]
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1203-07.htm[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
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What do you think is my bias webfusion? I haven't hesitated to criticize either side. My bias is toward a peaceful and just resolution. Israel has terrorized in my opinion. I stand by that claim and will make a list for of the ways they have done so if you need one. You know that others in Israel agree with me.

edit: oh yeah and i didn't call Israelis 'the terrorists' that would imply that there aren't Palestinian terrorists, which would be ludicrous.
 
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The mere fact that pilots came forward and expressed their displeasure (or refusal) is indicative of a wider sense of morality. Your "evidence" supports my claim, actually.
Also, while I'm thinking about it, do you have a news article from the palestinian community which shows any of them refusing to perform acts of wanton brutality with NO PRE-DETERMINED FOCUSED TARGET at all? Where are the palestinian's 'refuseniks' ?

Where is your bias? You keep talking about "two sides" or "either side" --- Yet, there are many sides, all aligned against Israel. Can you name the "other side"? Can you point to where this other side is, on a map?

Your post # 108 stands there for anyone to read, and form their own opinion about how you feel about Israel.
Nothing the Palestinians do justify using some of the tactics that have been used in retaliation.

Giving the palestinians a "free pass" while Israel is blamed for "retaliation" ---
If that is not a biased sentence, then I am at a loss to define the term.
 
It's not a free pass it's a recognition that stooping to another's level can be an immoral act.

Killing civilians is wrong and indiscriminant use of force is wrong. The Palestinians are wrong when they do it.

If you weren't so selective with your reading you'd notice I've presented balanced evidence, including information about the appalling things that the Palestinians have done too. I have condemned the violence perpetrated by both sides.

You on the other hand condemn one side and absolve the actions of the other claiming it to be justified. We need to be careful of this mindset because the Palestinians use it too. It's how the cycle of violence stays in motion.
 
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webfusion, I might have to put you on ignore if you insist on continually misrepresenting my views. Oh wait weren't you the one who was putting me on ignore? That seems a suitable solution.
 
thinkingaboutit said:
Killing civilians is wrong and indiscriminant use of force is wrong.
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It wasn't indiscriminate. They got the militant leader they were after. If Palestinian military leaders would stay clear of their families during times of war this wouldn't happen. But when they use civilians as shields I have no sympathy for them. If I was a civilian I would think twice before letting a known military commander bunk in my house. Of course, they count on the useful idiots in the west to blame Israel for the consequences of their decisions.
 
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thinkingaboutit said:
webfusion, I might have to put you on ignore if you insist on continually misrepresenting my views. Oh wait weren't you the one who was putting me on ignore? That seems a suitable solution.
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Israel also engages in collective punishment now. (terrorism)
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After you posted this, it seems Webfusions' opinion of your view as bias seems reasonable. Not that I agree with either of you 100%.
 
thinkingaboutit said:
Use of Force/Impunity. Human rights groups continued to document...

reposting this... from the report of a mainstream and trusted human rights organization...
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It's customary on the JREF to name your source and provide a link where possible. Where did this come from?

thinkingaboutit said:
Mycroft how can you claim Israel is careful in it's use of force? Have you heard of cluster munitions? Do you know why people are concerned about the use of these weapons? Do you know how many cluster bombs Israel dropped on Lebanon last year? Do you care that Hezbollah are now dropping them in Israel?
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I didn’t claim Israel is careful in its use of force. The truth is sometimes they are, and sometimes they are not. A generalization either way would be inaccurate.

Also, you’re changing the topic. The issue we were discussing is Israel's use of flechettes in the Gaza Strip, not Israel's recent war with Lebanon. Remember? You claimed the use of flechettes was proof of “punitive intent.”

thinkingaboutit said:
Policy is reflected in the fact that the army searched out, ordered and bought those shells and made them accessible. Or did the tank commander bring his own from home? Get real.
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Get real yourself. There are many potential uses for area effect anti-personal weapons. Just because the only use you can imagine is indiscriminant slaughter of civilians (which incidentally not even B’Tselem claims is the use they were put to) is not evidence that was the intent of purchasing them.

You yourself claimed that actions speak louder than policy statements, well the action of the IDF was to stop using these weapons five years ago.
 
webfusion said:
It is true. There is plenty of evidence to support that.


Just a reminder -- speaking of "biases" -- back in post 108 of this thread, you were calling Israelis the terrorists. That certainly places you in a fairly biased position, I would say.
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Evidence such as the use of cluster bombs in civilian areas. Of attacking drilling trucks from the air at risk of killing children playing in the area, of assassinating untried people in circumstances that guarantee the dearths of innocent children, of bulldozing the homes of innocent children, of stealing land on which to build apartheid walls. of destroying land of denying access to places of learning.

Collective punishment of an entire group of people including innocent children is an act of terror.

The hypocrisy of your position is manifest.
 
thinkingaboutit said:
I think it can be argued that using flechettes in Gaza is punitive intent. Disagree?

edit: As well let's not forget the targeting of infrastructure (houses, roads, ambulances, water purification, sewage treatment) Oh right those are all military targets somehow? Are these things not outrageous? I don't have double standards.
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Okay, now I would like to see evidence that Israel targets ambulances.
 
Originally posted by Mycroft

'It's customary on the JREF to name your source and provide a link where possible. Where did this come from?'

It is over a year now Mycroft since you made a claim and refused to justify. Perhaps you will do so sometime before Sylvia Browne. I keep waiting.
 
Mycroft said:
It's customary on the JREF to name your source and provide a link where possible. Where did this come from?
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I sourced it the first time I posted it in this thread.

Now as for ambulances...

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/784358.html


Red Cross: IDF hit clearly marked ambulance workers
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By The Associated Press
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The international Red Cross on Sunday deplored the killing by the Israel Defense Forces of two "clearly marked" ambulance workers removing a Palestinian body from an earlier Israeli attack in the Gaza Strip.

The paramedics of the Palestine Red Crescent Society were wearing clearly marked fluorescent jackets and the flashing lights of their ambulance were visible from a great distance when they were hit by Israeli fire after dark on Friday evening, said the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC).






http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0725-05.htm

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]TYRE, Lebanon — In the burning haze of the missile strike, Qasim Chaalan thought he had died. But piece by piece, he noticed that he was still there, inside the ambulance. He could still feel his body. He opened his eyes, and discovered he could see. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
0725-03.jpg

This image taken from video made by Lebanese Red Cross workers Sunday, July 23, 2006 in Qana, south Lebanon, and made available to AP Television, shows the roof of a Lebanese Red Cross ambulance destroyed in what they say was an Israeli airstrike. The Red Cross workers who provided AP Television News with the video said that nine ambulance workers were wounded in the explosion as they tried to ferry injured people from the town of Qana, 20 kilometers (about 12 and a half miles) from Tyre, to hospital. (AP Photo)
[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] He and the other medics were lucky: They had survived the blow of an Israeli missile. Dazed and slow, one of the men fumbled for the radio and began, "We have an accident…. " He didn't finish the sentence. A second missile smashed with a roar into the ambulance behind them. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Six Red Cross volunteers were wounded in the Sunday attack, and the injured family they were ferrying to safety suffered fresh agonies. A middle-age man lost his leg from the knee down. His mother was partially paralyzed. A little boy's head was hammered by shrapnel.
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
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http://hrw.org/english/docs/2002/03/09/isrlpa3795.htmIsrael: Cease Attacking Medical Personnel

(New York, March 9, 2002) -- Human Rights Watch today called on the Israeli government to instruct soldiers to immediately refrain from attacking medical personnel in the West Bank and Gaza. During the past week, at least three ambulances have been fired upon, three ambulance staff have died, and nine other medical personnel have been injured.




http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/09/13/isrlpa14185_txt.htm[FONT=Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif]Israel/Occupied Palestinian Territories: Don’t Fire on Gaza Medics[/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif]Six Attacks on Palestinian Ambulances, Paramedics[/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif](New York, September 13, 2006) – Israeli security forces launched attacks that harmed Palestinian medical emergency personnel and damaged ambulances on at least six different occasions in the Gaza Strip between May 30 and July 20, Human Rights Watch said today. Human Rights Watch called on the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) to ensure that its troops scrupulously respect the protected status of medical emergency personnel and facilities at all times as it conducts military operations in the Gaza Strip.[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif]Five of the incidents occurred during Israel’s military operations in Gaza that began on June 28, and three of them during the IDF military operation around the Maghazi Refugee Camp that began on July 18. In all of the incidents, the emergency medical personnel said they were responding to Palestinian casualties caused by earlier military activity but had waited for IDF shooting or shelling to stop before attempting to recover casualties. Four of the incidents occurred in daylight hours, and two of them in open areas. In at least two cases, the attack came from unmanned surveillance drone aircraft used by the Israeli Air Force to target wanted persons and armed individuals, and capable of precision targeting.

“Attacks against clearly identified medical providers are an extremely serious matter,” said Joe Stork, deputy director of the Middle East division of Human Rights Watch. “Israel should conduct an impartial and transparent investigation of these incidents to determine why medical personnel were endangered, and it should remind its forces that attacks against medical and religious personnel and objects displaying the emblems of the Geneva Conventions are prohibited.”

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Mycroft said:
I

Also, you’re changing the topic. The issue we were discussing is Israel's use of flechettes in the Gaza Strip, not Israel's recent war with Lebanon. Remember? You claimed the use of flechettes was proof of “punitive intent.”
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There is ample evidence of punitive intent. A pattern of it. Flechette use is but one example.
 
Tailgater said:
After you posted this, it seems Webfusions' opinion of your view as bias seems reasonable. Not that I agree with either of you 100%.
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Accurately reflecting the truth is not evidence of bias.

Your attitude unfortunately displays a bias against the truth.
 
webfusion said:
The mere fact that pilots came forward and expressed their displeasure (or refusal) is indicative of a wider sense of morality. Your "evidence" supports my claim, actually.
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So pilots come forward and claim that Israel is doing immoral things and that proves that Israel is moral? Good lord it's like debating CTers in here.


I guess I prove your claim too because I'm Jewish and I also speak out against the unethical things Israel has been doing?
 
E.J.Armstrong said:
Accurately reflecting the truth is not evidence of bias.

Your attitude unfortunately displays a bias against the truth.
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I did not deny the facts he posted was the truth, but only that the opinion (right or wrong) added to it was bias. Both sides are bias to a point, because the matter is not black and white nor every incident on either side always intentional (that is my bias). My post was only to point out that claiming such bias is not a misrepresentation (misinterpretation maybe) of ones views.

My post was not important enough to derail the thread over, so I'll leave it at that.;)
 
more incredibility

* That Tyre ambulance story, with photo showing the hole in the roof, was a complete fabrication.

* In March of 2002, the IDF was up to its ears in combat -- and the palestinians were using ambulances to transport terrorists and weapons. Fact.

* The Ha'Aretz article (about the ambulance workers killed) closed with this sentence: "The incident occurred during an Israeli offensive against Palestinian rocket squads." -- for all I know, the ambulances were being used by the rocket squads and likely the IDF saw this, with their reconaissance drones.



I notice that you have ignored answering my question:
You keep talking about "two sides" or "either side" --- Yet, there are many sides, all aligned against Israel. Can you name the "other side"? Can you point to where this other side is, on a map?
 
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