Peace Plan - "Accept it or face more violence."

Well if you're not discriminating when the two are mixed, what's that called?

See in my opinion this opens the door for Palestinians to argue that they are targeting soldiers (I'm sure you know Israelis must serve in the military).
 
Last edited:
See in my opinion this opens the door for Palestinians to argue that they are targeting soldiers (I'm sure you know Israelis must serve in the military).
If they're in uniform they're a legitimate target. If they're not in active duty they're not.

It's academic at any rate. The Palestinians don't even bother to claim they're targeting soldiers, any Jew will do. No problem blowing up a bus, cafe, etc. And their civilian populace will dance in the streets in glee when that happens.
 
You've changed your topic. We were discussing whether there was any specific Palestinian who wanted to invoke a right of return.

Now you're discussing the right of return generally as a negotaiting point. They might be related but they are distinct issues and I was only discussing the former.

As to why the Palestinians would ask for it even though there isn't anybody who would invoke it, the Palestinians can use the spectre of people wishing to invoke it as a negotiating position, which they can bargain away for substantive concessions. By refusing to identify how many , if any, Palestinians would invoke such a right, they can use uncertainty to their advantage.

Second, they could be arguing for a principle they feel has independent value, even if there are few or none to invoke it. Similarly, the Israelis could also be staking out a position on principle rather than pragmatism, of refusing to recognize such a right.

I can't read minds, so I have no idea why either side is using it, but there are theoretical reasons that appear much more likely than the idea that there are individual Palestinians who have not made their desires known.

I haven't. The only reason I mentioned the whole topic was because someone else claimed that the 'right to return' was just a ruse designed to prevent any real peace, since the Israelis would never agree to it. I just said it's possible that it is not a ruse. Since the Palestinians ask for it, and the Israelis have made sure in the past to limit it, in a peace deal, then I can only assume both sides treat the issue seriously.
 
Seriously I don't understand your point. Maybe I am dumb. Flechettes are a lethal and indiscriminant weapon. It's use is punitive in that innocents are hurt when these weapons are fired. The families of the victims are punished and terrorized too. Imagine wondering if you might die every time you go out on the street.

Is it alright for a suicide bomber to target a soldier who is standing among civilians? No. That's called terror. I fail to see the difference when flechettes are used or artillery or when a 'targeted assassination' leaves more innocents dead than militants.

The point is that flechettes are using to kill...literally. Rubber bullets, tear gas, etc, etc...are not.

And targeting soldiers is not terror.
 
Well if you're not discriminating when the two are mixed, what's that called?

See in my opinion this opens the door for Palestinians to argue that they are targeting soldiers (I'm sure you know Israelis must serve in the military).

Except they're not. Israeli children are not serving in the military. Israeli women do not serve in the military.

Talking about the everyday civilian.
 
I don't know any, but I have read anecdotes in the paper of Palestinians who want their home back.

As I said before, if it's such a non-issue, why do Palestinians insist on asking for it, and Israeli's insist on enforcing a limit on it. You guess none, I am guessing that the quota will be filled.

A. Palestinians want their homes back, but do not want to become a part of Israel -- they want to be Palestinians in palestine, without the State of Israel.

B. Palestinians insist on it because they understand that by having "millions" of palestinians entering into palestine en-masse (they never say "Israel") then they can demographically overwhelm the existing population of 5.4 million jews, and there will be no more State of Israel to speak of. That is their clear goal.

C. I did not guess none. I said that none have come forward to proclaim their interest in becoming Israeli citizens. If Israel indeed offers to allow a few hundred thousand to return (using whatever formula is agreed to, defining who is a refugee eligible to 'return') then I suspect that the palestinians would refuse that offer, instead holding out for "all or nothing" --- since the palestinians realize perfectly well that their maximalist position is that ALL of palestine is theirs, and they have no need to accept the "generosity" of Israel, because all they need do is wait, another generation or two, and eventually they will force the jews in Israel to surrender, one way or the other.
* HAMAS specifically wrote down that very course of action, in black and white, and proclaim it as their Sacred Charter.
* HEZBOLLAH leaders proclaim this is their aim, at every rally in Lebanon.
* IRAN's mullahs, and their President, speak openly about this purpose, as the duty for Muslims everywhere.

I take them at their word. I'm not skeptical at all about their intent.

||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

Azure, a quick note: Israeli women do serve in the IDF (they are drafted).

Blowing up a public bus, claiming that it is used to "transport soldiers" (since most Israeli busses would, by their nature, have soldiers riding) is not aiming at a military target. It is outright civilian terror, and there is no question about that.
 
I just said it's possible that it is not a ruse. Since the Palestinians ask for it, and the Israelis have made sure in the past to limit it, in a peace deal, then I can only assume both sides treat the issue seriously.
Treating it seriously doesn't make it less of a ruse. A ruse can be a very serious negotiating tactic, particularly if credulous and influential third parties are willing to accept it without evidence.

So your argument is missing some crucial elements. Just because the Palestinians assert a right to return and just because the Israelis deny such a right does not mean the Palestinians can substantiate it. It just means it's politically expedient for them to assert the right.

The only way to distinguish between a ruse and not a ruse is evidence. And so far nobody has given me any evidence to show that there are Palestinians willing to invoke such a right, which leads me to believe it's a ruse.

And i too have seen plenty of articles talking about Palestinians -- in general -- who may want to return to their family home. But I've yet to see a specific Palestinian assert such a right. Of course, I don't read every article on the subject, so I was kind of hoping that you might have seen one and can refer to it.
 
Actions speak louder than policy statements.

They do.

"Policy statement" was a poor choice of words on my part. I should have said "orders" or "rules of engagement."

The decisions made by a single tank commander doesn't represent the policy of the entire nation unless you can also find orders from much higher in the command structure directing tank commanders to make that decision.

On the other hand, the very fact that these shells have not been used in half a decade does indicate that it has become policy not to use them.
 
Last edited:
Well if you're not discriminating when the two are mixed, what's that called?

See in my opinion this opens the door for Palestinians to argue that they are targeting soldiers (I'm sure you know Israelis must serve in the military).

For starters, not all Israelis are required to serve in the IDF.

Also, the relationship between Palestinian actions and what's said by Palestinian spokespersons is somewhat surreal, as evidenced by what Farouq Qaddumi says about Marilyn Klinghoffer in the following link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Klinghoffer
 
The point is that flechettes are using to kill...literally. Rubber bullets, tear gas, etc, etc...are not.

And targeting soldiers is not terror.

It's also worth pointing out that while some would portray the IDF as indiscriminately using lethal force, in reality it has been a pioneer in developing non-lethal alternatives.
 
thinkingaboutit says:Imagine wondering if you might die every time you go out on the street.

Tellingly, he is making this comment about the palestinians, and asking us to imagine their fear ------ however, this is an extraordinary twisting of reality, since it is the Israelis, in fact, who are the ones that face the sudden, out-of-the-blue horror of bombings in their universitiy cafeterias, their restaurants, their discos, their malls, theaters, busses, streetcorners.

The reality, my friends, is that the attempts of islamic jihadists to kill jews in Israel, stems not from anything the Israelis did in June 1967 (which is termed the "occupation") but stems from the hatred of islamic jihadists that Israel was created at all (the "catastrophe"). This is clearly proven by several key pieces of evidence:

1. In the 1950's, palestinian terrorists were known merely as fedayin and they planted bombs, and killed jews in Israeli cities. There was no such thing as "resistance to occupation" at the time --- there was not even an organization called the PLO. Yet, Israelis were under attack in their cities.

2. In 1965, years before Israel was forced to defend itself in a major war, the PLO organized itself, with the aim of perpetrating raids and attacks upon Israelis in their homes and in their villages. Infiltrations from Jordan and Egypt (gaza) were fairly common, and many Israelis died at the hands of these fedayin-terrorists. Yes, indeed, imagine wondering if you might die each time you go out shopping. Just think about it.
http://www.israelinsider.com/channels/security/articles/sec_0224.htm
(dated 2002, but this same stuff has been going on for decades, all prior to the "occupation" which began in 1967.


BTW, I came across the following article, and felt it worthwhile to post it here: (I do not agree with the underlying points, but it is a fascinating read)
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Articles/General/Story1654.html
 
Tellingly, he is making this comment about the palestinians, and asking us to imagine their fear ------ however, this is an extraordinary twisting of reality, since it is the Israelis, in fact, who are the ones that face the sudden, out-of-the-blue horror of bombings in their universitiy cafeterias, their restaurants, their discos, their malls, theaters, busses, streetcorners.

The reality, my friends, is that the attempts of islamic jihadists to kill jews in Israel, stems not from anything the Israelis did in June 1967 (which is termed the "occupation") but stems from the hatred of islamic jihadists that Israel was created at all (the "catastrophe"). This is clearly proven by several key pieces of evidence:

It's termed an "occupation" because it's an occupation.
 
I call it a liberation of lands that have been jewish for millenia. In any case, the Palestinian Authority has the power to end this "occupation" ---- or perpetuate it. Their choice.
Making threats that Israel will face another 120 years of the same type of violence that has characterized the past 120 years in palestine, is a recipe for IDF to stay right where we are and keep doing what we are doing.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/848046.html
 
[FONT=Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif]Use of Force/Impunity. Human rights groups continued to document repeated indiscriminate use of lethal force by Israeli troops, as well the excessive use of force in situations where law enforcement means were called for. Investigations into alleged wrongdoing by Israeli forces were infrequent, and the results rarely made public. Palestinian Authority (PA) officials condemned attacks on civilians, including suicide bombings, but failed to move decisively against those responsible for ordering and organizing them where they had the capacity to do so.

Assassinations policy. Israeli forces killed some 97 individuals under its assassinations policy in 2003, and injured 500 others. More than half those killed were civilian bystanders. At least some of these attacks were indiscriminate and disproportionate, including an operation on 21 October 2003 in Gaza city that killed 12 civilians.

Israel originally depicted its assassinations policy as a last-resort means to prevent imminent attack. By 2003 the government had steadily expanded the selection of targets and killed repeatedly without showing any link to imminent attack and that the arrest of suspects was not possible. The essentially political nature of the killings was shown even more clearly when Israel twice suspended its assassination policy for political reasons.

Collective punishment. By May 2003 Israel’s policy of house demolitions had made more than 13,000 Palestinians homeless. Thousands of homes and buildings have been demolished on alleged security grounds, many in excess of the requirements of military necessity. Twenty-one thousand dunums (approximately five thousand acres) of agricultural land have been razed. Israeli forces also demolished the homes of scores of families of alleged armed militants, a clear violation of the prohibition against collective punishment contained in Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Israeli restrictions on freedom of movement in the West Bank and Gaza Strip were so severe and widespread as to constitute collective punishment. These crippling restrictions disrupted access to medical care, education, and economic activity, and were frequently accompanied by extended curfews. Movement restrictions remained even as additional restrictions were imposed as a result of the separation barrier. The UN OCHA reported 757 movement barriers in place at the end of 2003.


reposting this... from the report of a mainstream and trusted human rights organization...

Mycroft how can you claim Israel is careful in it's use of force? Have you heard of cluster munitions? Do you know why people are concerned about the use of these weapons? Do you know how many cluster bombs Israel dropped on Lebanon last year? Do you care that Hezbollah are now dropping them in Israel?
[/FONT]
They do.

"Policy statement" was a poor choice of words on my part. I should have said "orders" or "rules of engagement."

The decisions made by a single tank commander doesn't represent the policy of the entire nation unless you can also find orders from much higher in the command structure directing tank commanders to make that decision.

On the other hand, the very fact that these shells have not been used in half a decade does indicate that it has become policy not to use them.

Policy is reflected in the fact that the army searched out, ordered and bought those shells and made them accessible. Or did the tank commander bring his own from home? Get real.



[FONT=Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif]
[/FONT]
 
Tellingly, he is making this comment about the palestinians, and asking us to imagine their fear ------ however, this is an extraordinary twisting of reality, since it is the Israelis, in fact, who are the ones that face the sudden, out-of-the-blue horror of bombings in their universitiy cafeterias, their restaurants, their discos, their malls, theaters, busses, streetcorners.

Tellingly webfusion along with a few other posters here are unable or unwilling to utter a single criticism of Israel. Granted I've only been posting here a short while so maybe I missed something in the past but I find the lack of critical thinking in this regard to be very disturbing.

For example the claim that I've twisted reality as it's Israelis who live in fear, not Palestinians.

Hey webfusion could maybe both people be living in fear because both sides are doing things that get innocent people killed? Am I twisting things again?
 
I call it a liberation of lands that have been jewish for millenia. In any case, the Palestinian Authority has the power to end this "occupation" ---- or perpetuate it. Their choice.
Making threats that Israel will face another 120 years of the same type of violence that has characterized the past 120 years in palestine, is a recipe for IDF to stay right where we are and keep doing what we are doing.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/848046.html

I agree, threats to destroy Israel are self defeating. If they leave Israel with no way out but to fight, it will fight. That's only logical. Fanatical calls for Jihad and invocations that they will win with Allah on their side are only self-delusional.
 
From the report:
Palestinian Authority (PA) officials condemned attacks on civilians, including suicide bombings, but failed to move decisively against those responsible for ordering and organizing them where they had the capacity to do so.

No, it's much worse than that. Much worse.

The PA is actually organizing itself into an arrangement whereby the public faces, the guys like ABBAS, are constantly 'tsk-tsking' and 'condemning' while in reality, the formation of highly-trained and well-armed terror-army forces continues to be supported at the top level.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/848046.html
Hamas is supporting Islamic Jihad's rocket attacks against Israel with behind-the-scenes activities that include arming the organization's militants with Qassam rockets.
IDF intelligence sources said Hamas is emerging as the lynchpin of Palestinian terrorist activities against Israel. According to security sources, Hamas has adopted a strategy of duality, which will be maintained under all circumstances, including a situation of a general cease-fire. On the basis of this strategy, Palestinian organizations will continue violent activities against Israel notwithstanding a cease-fire.


and

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/848262.html
Details of the plan remained sketchy, however, particularly on whether Hamas' militia, (the "Executive Force" ) formed last year, would be dissolved.

Of course it won't be dissolved! It is the major element of HAMAS providing money, training and arms to everyone --- all in the name of "resistance"


Tell ya what ---- If they keep up with building and reinforcing this entire terror-army thing, then IDF flechettes dropping on their heads will be the least of their worries!
 
Tellingly webfusion along with a few other posters here are unable or unwilling to utter a single criticism of Israel. Granted I've only been posting here a short while so maybe I missed something in the past but I find the lack of critical thinking in this regard to be very disturbing.

For example the claim that I've twisted reality as it's Israelis who live in fear, not Palestinians.

Hey webfusion could maybe both people be living in fear because both sides are doing things that get innocent people killed? Am I twisting things again?


Yes. You are making a moral equivalency argument.

THIS (see article) is the type of thing that Israel wants to prevent from happening inside its cities, and going after top HAMAS guys, or ISLAMIC JIHAD guys, or Al-QAEDA guys, is the way to stop it.

ETA --- I linked to a 2004 article about an islamic bomber in Karbala. I did so, to illustrate that this sort of thing is what we have to prevent ---- BTW, Karbala is the same city which was the site of a bombing TODAY which killed over 37. We in Israel have no desire whatsoever to allow these Islamic radical murders to gain any sort of a foothold in our neck of the woods.

I have no problem with the IDF using lethal force, to achieve assassinations of men who deserve it. The fact that these specific targets are surrounded by civilians is not equivalent to terrorists sending a random car bomb to explode in a crowded marketplace.

That you cannot see the difference is a shame.


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

I am an Israeli, and I criticize when applicable. I also vote.
 
Last edited:
Israel acts ethically. Its military, its political echelon, its Fifth Estate, all are moral and perform well within the norms of civilized humanity.
 

Back
Top Bottom