Peace in the middle east.

[zenith-nadir]

Come on Capel, tell us how former Middle East envoy Dennis Ross is lying and Fox News Sunday is fake news and I am just repeating the zionist lies of former Middle East envoy Dennis Ross who takes his orders from the war criminal Sharon.

 

[CapelDodger]

Dennis Ross was not the only witness at Camp David and Taba (which is what I was referring to, the final "negotiations"). Others come to different conclusions. The Truth About Camp David, by Clayton Swisher, based on extensive interviews with many of those invovled (including Dennis Ross), is well-regarded. Your Dennis Ross quote gains no cachet by being from a softball interview on Fox News.

ROSS: Arafat's whole life has been governed by struggle and a cause. Everything he has done as leader of the Palestinians is to always leave his options open, never close a door. He was being asked here, you've got to close the door. For him to end the conflict is to end himself.

This is Ross's belief. Perhaps even his conclusion, although who can tell with beliefs. It seems a very odd one. Were he to be describing Sharon it would make much more sense. What would Sharon be without the struggle?

Reeling in a sovereign Palestinian state would have been the crowning glory of Arafat's career. It must have seemed impossible in 1950. Nobody wanted a Palestinian state - not Israel, not Jordan, not Syria, not the US. The Palestinians had no voice, they were practically invisible. It was Arafat that created a representative body - the PLO - to speak for them, Arafat that brought it international recognition, Arafat who steered it to accept a state in part of Palestine, Arafat who led it to a quasi-state and a Palestinian Authority after Oslo. That's still his legacy - the possibility of a Palestinian state. It's recognised as necessary by the US, the UN, and everybody but Israel. With Peretz on the scene now, it may even happen.

Arafat said "no", apart from anything else, because he was not being offered a sovereign state. In particular it would not have sovereignty over the Al-Aqsa Mosque. Jewish sovereignty over the Western Wall was not disputed - that had been the Palestinian position since Oslo. Palestinian sovereignty over the Al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock was the demand. Barak wouldn't concede it, even though he knew there could be no agreement without it. Why wouldn't he? Why stick to a position that would either be rejected or would be a surrender by the Palestinians, rather than a deal?

The obvious conclusion is that he wanted a surrender, not a deal. He wanted, if anything, an agreement that he could tell the Israeli electorate did not constitute a sovereign Palestinian state, whatever the world might think. The possibility of further expansion on the West Bank - up to and including all of it - and the re-taking of Gaza would remain open, since these were not sovereign lands. Of course the Palestinians couldn't accept that. Barak didn't even want them to have sovereignty over their own skies - Israel would military overflight rights as well as commercial - which is presumably the source of

He wouldn't even countenance the idea that the Israelis would be able to operate in Palestinian airspace. You know when you fly into Israel today you go to Ben Gurion. You fly in over the West Bank because you can't -- there's no space through otherwise. He rejected that.

That's deliberately misleading enough to be a lie. (Quite apart from him getting into a tangle over how hard it is to fly into a country with a Mediterranean coastline.)

 

[Dr Adequate]

You know, AUP, it's simply breathtaking to see how brazenly you try to make everything all about you. Or what people think about you. Or how you feel about things. You're a complete drama queen.

That is a fascinating response to a post in which a_u_p didn't mention himself, what people think about him, or his feelings.

What's it like to live in a parallel universe? Are you comfy in there? Are the walls nice and soft and padded?

 

[zenith-nadir]

Your Dennis Ross quote gains no cachet by being from a softball interview on Fox News.

I knew beyond any doubt that you would try to attack the validity of Fox News Sunday....and you did.

That's deliberately misleading enough to be a lie. (Quite apart from him getting into a tangle over how hard it is to fly into a country with a Mediterranean coastline.)

I knew beyond any doubt that you would try to attack the validity of Dennis Ross's statements on live national television...and you did.

It was Arafat that created a representative body - the PLO - to speak for them, Arafat that brought it international recognition...

And this is how the PLO "spoke" to the world and brought it international recognition:

• SwissAir flight 330, bound for Tel Aviv, is bombed in mid-flight.
• PLO terrorists attack an Israeli schoolbus with bazooka fire, killing nine pupils and three teachers from Moshav Avivim.
• TWA, Pan-Am, and BOAC airplanes are hijacked by PLO terrorists.
• Jordanian forces battle the PLO terrorist organization in a civil war.
• 11 Israeli athletes are murdered at the Munich Olympics.
• United States' ambassador to Sudan, Cleo Noel – and a Belgian are shot and killed by the PLO .
• 11 people are killed by Palestinian terrorists who attack apartment building in Kiryat Shmona.
• PLO terrorists infiltrating from Lebanon hold children hostage in Ma'alot school. 26 people, 21 of them children, are killed.
• June 9, 1974: Palestinian National Council adopts “Phased Plan,” which calls for the establishment of a Palestinian state on any territory evacuated by Israel, to be used as a base of operations for destroying the whole of Israel.
• Fatah terrorists take over a bus on the Haifa-Tel Aviv highway and kill 21 Israelis.
• Having created a terrorist mini-state in Lebanon destabilizing that nation, another civil war ensues.
• Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro is hijacked by Palestinian terrorists. Wheelchair-bound elderly man, Leon Klinghoffer, was shot and thrown overboard.

Arafat and the PLO "spoke" to the world with thousands of international bombings, hijackings, assassinations and other attacks. Arafat was a terrorist, the PLO was a terror organization. And not only did Arafat and the PLO murder & terrorize thousands of Jordanians, Israelis and Lebanese, Arafat personally stole billions of dollars from the mouths of his very own Palestinians.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/07/60minutes/main582487.shtml

Yasser Arafat diverted nearly $1 billion in public funds to insure his political survival, but a lot more is unaccounted for.

Although the money for the portfolio came from public funds like Palestinian taxes, virtually none of it was used for the Palestinian people;

"Arafat for years would cry poor, saying, 'I can't pay the salaries, we're gonna have a disaster here, the Palestinian economy is going to collapse,'" says Indyk. "And we would all mouth those words: 'The Palestinian economy is going to collapse if we don't do something about this.' But at the same time, he's accumulating hundreds of millions of dollars."

All told, U.S. officials estimate Arafat's personal nest egg at between $1 billion and $3 billion.

So I reject your interpretation that Arafat was some sort of noble statesmen "just trying to make peace with the eeeevil Israelis" at Camp David. He was a duplicitous thieving terrorist dictator who stole from his own people who couldn't negotiate his way out of a paper bag without bribing it or blowing it up.

There was no world-wide conspiracy to make Arafat look bad, or to cheat him, or to rip-off the Palestinians. He was an unreliable and incompetent statesman. He would say peace to the world while the useful idiots would fight each other to see who could climb up his ass first. Meanwhile behind closed doors Arafat would buy $50,000,000 worth of weapons, (see: Karine-A), from Iran...and pay the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades for suicide bombing attacks on Israelis.

His entire life was devoted to "the struggle" and as Dennis Ross said:

For him to end the conflict is to end himself.

No "struggle" ...no need for Arafat and his fedayeen...No need for Arafat and his fedayeen...no power. No power...no useful idiots, no fame, no control of the Palestinians and no billions of dollars. Arafat wanted money, power and control more than he wanted peace. His entire existence was defined by war and the "struggle"...his existence was not defined by statesmanship, financing social programs for Palestinians or peace-making with ...ahh...let's say the Jordanians, Israelis or Lebanese.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

I knew beyond any doubt that you would try to attack the validity of Fox News Sunday....and you did.

I knew beyond any doubt that you would try to attack the validity of Dennis Ross's statements on live national television...and you did.

The validity of Fox News attacked? How on earth did you see that coming?



The rest of your post was also empty of evidence either that Arafat always negotiated in bad faith (althouth he may have for all I know) or that the Israeli government ever negotiated in good faith (although it may have for all I know). It was just a long-winded appeal to emotion.

 

[zenith-nadir]

The validity of Fox News attacked? How on earth did you see that coming?

Fox news as a whole sucks. It's a joke. But Dennis Ross speaking on National television on Fox News Sunday is not "all of Fox News". Yet I knew Capel would take that easy "out" in an attempt to impeach Dennis Ross's own statement.

The rest of your post was also empty of evidence either that Arafat always negotiated in bad faith (althouth he may have for all I know) or that the Israeli government ever negotiated in good faith (although it may have for all I know). It was just a long-winded appeal to emotion.

Did Arafat negotiate in bad faith with the Jordanians? Yup. And it caused a civil war there. Did Arafat negotiate in bad faith with the Lebanese? Yup. And it caused not only a civil war but it caused two foreign countries - Israel & Syria - to invade Lebanon. Was Arafat turfed out of Lebanon to exile to Tunisia? Yup. Did Arafat negotiate in bad faith with the Israelis upon his glorious return to the Middle East? Yup. And he financed Palestinians terror groups while he signed several peace treaties AND sat in Camp David "negotiating" peace.

So Arafat was duplicitious in negotiations with the Jordanians, the Lebanese, the Israelis...any other highlights in Arafat's brilliant carrer as a statesman? Why yes there is one I can think of. Good old Arafat - the statesman - backed Saddam in the invasion of Kuwait...much to the displeasure of the Kuwaities and the rest of the planet earth.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1361060.stm

Members of the Kuwaiti parliament have reacted angrily to the visit of senior Palestinian official Faisal Husseini.

Kuwaiti parliamentarians warned their government against any rapprochement with the Palestinian Authority, saying it has yet to apologise for siding with Iraq during the 1990-91 Gulf crisis.

Yasser Arafat's Palestine Liberation Organization supported Iraqi President Saddam Hussein when his forces invaded Kuwait in August 1990.

So should I believe Kevin ol'pal that everyone was just conspiring to make Arafat look bad as a statesman at Camp David? Or should I use the evidence of Arafat's past statemanship to conclude perhaps Arafat was in every respect a really duplicitous statesman?

 

[Mycroft]

Arafat and the PLO "spoke" to the world with thousands of international bombings, hijackings, assassinations and other attacks. Arafat was a terrorist, the PLO was a terror organization. And not only did Arafat and the PLO murder & terrorize thousands of Jordanians, Israelis and Lebanese, Arafat personally stole billions of dollars from the mouths of his very own Palestinians.

In the United States people make heros out of Jesse James, Bonnie & Clyde, Al Capone, and any number of mobsters, murderers and criminals. Right now there is even a reality show called "Growing up Gotti" where people can admire the lifestyles of the Gotti crime family.

Show people evil in its purest form and it will be admired, worshiped and excused. Arafat is just another manifestation of this truth.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Fox news as a whole sucks. It's a joke. But Dennis Ross speaking on National television on Fox News Sunday is not "all of Fox News". Yet I knew Capel would take that easy "out" in an attempt to impeach Dennis Ross's own statement.

This is special pleading, and silly special pleading at that. You keep stating that this was on "National" television, but what does that prove? All sorts of things are aired on national television.

Did Arafat negotiate in bad faith with the Jordanians? Yup. And it caused a civil war there. Did Arafat negotiate in bad faith with the Lebanese? Yup. And it caused not only a civil war but it caused two foreign countries - Israel & Syria - to invade Lebanon. Was Arafat turfed out of Lebanon to exile to Tunisia? Yup. Did Arafat negotiate in bad faith with the Israelis upon his glorious return to the Middle East? Yup. And he financed Palestinians terror groups while he signed several peace treaties AND sat in Camp David "negotiating" peace.

This is better. All of these are factual claims that you could, in theory, back up.

So should I believe Kevin ol'pal that everyone was just conspiring to make Arafat look bad as a statesman at Camp David? Or should I use the evidence of Arafat's past statemanship to conclude perhaps Arafat was in every respect a really duplicitous statesman?

It's up to you what you believe, I was just pointing out that your post was argumentatively empty.

This one is better, but it still doesn't touch the issue of whether or not the Israeli government was negotiating in good faith. We have heard a number or arguments from Capel for the position that they were not, and you have not replied to them.

 

[webfusion]

Going back to Oslo

If the definition of "good faith" means trying to implement the distinct phases and the overall spirit of Oslo, then the Israelis have certainly been negotiating in good faith all along. As a matter of fact, just today the new Labor Party head indicated that he intends to follow the Oslo Agreements.

• The new leader of the Labor Party, Amir Peretz, said in his speech that Rabin's sacrifice had not been in vain.
  "The Oslo route is still very much alive. The Oslo route is still the path to peace," he said.
  "I have a dream that one day Israeli and Palestinian children will play together," Peretz said, adding that the ongoing conflict and occupation are eroding moral values and "gnawing at the essence of Israeli democracy."

Where are the Palestinians singing "Shir ha'Shalom" ? (Song of Peace)

They aren't.
They are busy listening to guys like Sheikh Raed Salah, the firebrand Israeli Islamic Movement leader, who is determined to ascend to the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem's Old City and call the faithful to "defend Al-Aqsa which is in danger (of destruction by jews)"
A Lie of major proportions, but that is what the Palestinians are focused on -- not peace, but fanaticism and total fabrications, just as they have been for generations.

Good luck to 'em.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

I doubt there will be peace in the middle east until one side or the other exterminates the other side. There is so much bad blood and mutual hatred between all parties involved, that I don't think that either side would settle for anything less.

 

[Chaos]

I doubt there will be peace in the middle east until one side or the other exterminates the other side. There is so much bad blood and mutual hatred between all parties involved, that I don't think that either side would settle for anything less.

Well, it could happen that a neutral third side that has a much bigger stick than either of them comes and tells them in no uncertain term that they are to be nice to each other from now on, while waving aforementioned stick at them in an unambiguous manner. In the long run, this might even lead to them hating the third side instead of each other - which would be kind of an advance over the present state.
However the only third side that I could see that is powerful enough is the US, and they´re far too biased and partisan to be called "neutral".

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Well, it could happen that a neutral third side that has a much bigger stick than either of them comes and tells them in no uncertain term that they are to be nice to each other from now on, while waving aforementioned stick at them in an unambiguous manner. In the long run, this might even lead to them hating the third side instead of each other - which would be kind of an advance over the present state.
However the only third side that I could see that is powerful enough is the US, and they´re far too biased and partisan to be called "neutral".

Idoubt that would work. All it would lead to is both parties adding the "neutral third party" to their respective list of targets while continuing to gleefully massacre each other whenever they could get away with it.

Besides, Is having both sides decide to start killing people who belong to the "neutral third party" really an improvement in your mind?

 

[zenith-nadir]

Well, it could happen that a neutral third side that has a much bigger stick than either of them comes and tells them in no uncertain term that they are to be nice to each other from now on, while waving aforementioned stick at them in an unambiguous manner.

The sad part about this theory Chaos is Hamas and Islamic Jihad don't really care about "a deal". Most people fail to realize this or just plain refuse to accept that the goal of Hamas is to wipe out Israel and replace it with a strictly muslim theocracy. The goal of Islamic Jihad is to wipe out Israel AND the insufficiently Islamic Arab governments in the Middle East and replace them with a strict muslim theocracy.

These two groups are no different than al-Zarqawi's goons, Al Queda or Jemaah Islamiah. They do not answer to Israel and they do not answer to the Palestinian Authority....and they sure as hell they ain't gonna answer to the US or Britain. And that is why every peace deal and every attempt to make peace has failed.

It is really really hard for anyone on Earth to broker a peace deal with the Palestinian Authority when the Palestinian Authority A) does not control Hamas or Islamic Jihad and B) the Palestinian Authority refuses to disarm and disband Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

When Arafat finally announced a commitment to a two-state solution and renounced terror in his Israel-PLO Recognition letter, the Oslo Accords made it possible for the PLO - a terror organization - to go home to Palestine. But what happened? Arafat and the PA did not try to stop the deadly Palestinian terrorist campaign, in fact the PA was caught red-handed financing, arming and harboring the very terrorists they were obligated to stop per Arafat's Israel-PLO Recognition letter! And to this very day Hamas and Islamic Jihad parade with their weapons on public streets screaming "Death to Israel...death to America!"...

Here's a photo from today, (Nov 14th, 2005)...

the caption reads "A Palestinian boy is dressed as the late leader Yasser Arafat as he attends a rally marking the first anniversary of their late leader's death in Khan Yunes the Gaza City." (AFP/Said Khatib)

That boy looks about 13 or 14 years old, dressed up as Arafat at a rally, with a real AK-47 in his hands sitting on a jeep with a machinegun mounted on it. Any parents here? Is that the type of message you would want to teach your kids? Where is the Palestinian Authority? Why are they not stopping armed rallies - which they pledged to do about 100 times - which features children with machine guns under 16?

Hamas and Islamic Jihad foster a Kalashikov culture that makes peace between Israel and the Palestinians impossible.

 

[webfusion]

ZN notes:
"Hamas and Islamic Jihad foster a Kalashikov culture that makes peace between Israel and the Palestinians impossible."


Another Palestinian teen (17) was shot today while playing with a 'toy' gun in a confrontation against IDF troops.

• Israel Defense Forces troops in the West Bank on Friday shot and wounded a Palestinian teenager playing with a toy gun, whom they had mistaken for an armed militant, Israel Radio reported Friday.

and also --

Israel Defense Forces soldiers arrested a Palestinian youth carrying an explosives belt at the Hawara checkpoint yesterday afternoon.