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Paul The Herodian and the DSS

There's no rush.
Whenever you can provide an outline of the texts you think are applicable, unless you are saying that I'm to defer to determining it from Eisenman's blog.

I don't have much anticipation, because there aren't that many pesher, and fewer in the time you want, and those are "juicy".
 
There's no rush.
Whenever you can provide an outline of the texts you think are applicable, unless you are saying that I'm to defer to determining it from Eisenman's blog.

I don't have much anticipation, because there aren't that many pesher, and fewer in the time you want, and those are "juicy".

OK. I'll take a look in the next few days or so.

I'm not feeling too energetic at the moment and my enthusiasm is starting to wane. Maybe I should to try to stay away from the HJ threads for a while.
 
Heres a list of the Pesher texts, also.
These are what we're pulling from.
I have not removed texts that have too early of dates.

Continuous pesharim
1QpHab: Habakkuk pesher
4Q161-165: 4QpIsa a-e (Isaiah pesher)
4Q166-167: 4QpHos a-b (Hosea pesher)
4Q169: 4QpNah (Nahum pesher)
4Q170: 4QpZeph (Zephaniah pesher)
4Q171 & 173: 4QpPs a-b (Psalms pesher)
Thematic pesharim
4Q174: 4QFlor (the Florilegium)
4Q177: 4QCatena a
11Q13: 11QMelch (the Melchizedek Midrash)
 
...This is a sect who would have seen the rise of the independent Judah in wide hopes, seen those hopes dashed in almost the same instant and fueled terrible anger, then suffered a complete loss of their hopes of their priest regaining his seat, and then hoped for a savior champion to set everything right having lost all other hope once their champion was dead and Judah was no longer independent, and then watched once more as the stories of old repeated themselves and the 1st c CE fell into turmoil of the same nature as the turmoil behind them; which their elders and founders had experiences, and then finally watched as the the entirety of Judah was completely annihilated permanently, never to rise again.

Your summation is so clear I didn't realise til the third reading it's just one sentence.
 
OK, I did a little digging for you Brainache.
Here's a trimmed list of Pesharim capable of reaching close to the CE times needed to be part of the idea of the three J's (John, Jesus, James).

I have provided a book resource for each noted with "[o]".
Only one text, 171, derives its date from C14; the rest derive from paleography.

4Q161-165 (30 BCE - 30 CE) [o]
4Q171 & 173 (1 CE - 100 CE) C14 [o]
4Q174 (30 BCE - 30 CE) [o]
4Q177 (~30 - 40 CE) [o]
 
Heres a list of the Pesher texts, also.
These are what we're pulling from.
I have not removed texts that have too early of dates.

Continuous pesharim
1QpHab: Habakkuk pesher
4Q161-165: 4QpIsa a-e (Isaiah pesher)
4Q166-167: 4QpHos a-b (Hosea pesher)
4Q169: 4QpNah (Nahum pesher)
4Q170: 4QpZeph (Zephaniah pesher)
4Q171 & 173: 4QpPs a-b (Psalms pesher)
Thematic pesharim
4Q174: 4QFlor (the Florilegium)
4Q177: 4QCatena a
11Q13: 11QMelch (the Melchizedek Midrash)


OK. Here goes nothing: This is not going to be a professional assessment, as you know I'm strictly Amateur (I don't want to affect my Olympic hopes), So what I'm going to do is go down that list of Pesharim and find passages that I've seen Eisenman write about, plus anything else as it occurs to me. So please don't be too hard on me if I get this stuff a bit wrong, and please don't blame Eisenman if I stuff it up.

So:
1QpHab: Habakkuk pesher
http://www.preteristarchive.com/BibleStudies/DeadSeaScrolls/1QpHab_pesher_habakkuk.html

At the start we have the usual stuff about The Righteous Teacher and the Liar and the punishments for people following the liar and ignoring the Righteous one.

Then some stuff about the "Kittim" (Romans):
"Their horses are swifter than leopards and fleeter than evening wolves" [Hab 1.8].

Their horses step forward proudly and spread their wings; They fly from afar like an eagle avid to devour.

"All of them come for violence; the look on their faces is like the east wind" [Hab 1.8-9a].

[Interpreted, this] concerns the Kittim who trample the earth with their horses and beasts. They come from afar, from the islands of the sea, to devour all the peoples like an eagle which cannot be satisfied, and they address [all the peoples] with anger and [wrath and fury] and indignation.
...

And they shall gather in their riches, together with all their booty, "like the fish of the sea."

And as for that which he said, "therefore they sacrifice to their net and Burn incense to their seine": Interpreted, this means that they sacrifice to their standards and worship their weapons of war.

Re the bold: Eisenman argues that this refers to Imperial Romans, because they had an image of the Emperor Augustus on the standards whom they worshipped as a god. He says that earlier Romans under Pompey didn't do this.

Interpreted, this means that they divide their yoke and their tribute -- their sustenance -- over all the peoples year by year, ravaging many lands.

"Therefore their sword is ever drawn to massacre nations mercilessly [Hab 1.17].

Interpreted, this concerns the Kittim who cause many to perish by the sword -- youths, grown men, the aged, women and children -- and who even take no pity on the fruit of the womb.

Now we see a description of Roman "Tax Farming" which didn't start in Judea until after the Quirinius Census. Tax being one of the main ignition points for the movement started by Judas the Galilean.

And as for that which He said, "that he who reads may read it speedily"

Interpreted this concerns the Teacher of Righteousness, to whom God made known all the mysteries of the words of His servants the prophets.

"For there shall be yet another vision concerning the appointed time. It shall tell of the end and shall not lie [Hab 2.3a].

Interpreted, this means that the final age shall be prolonged, and shall exceed all that the prophets have said; for the mysteries of God are astounding.

Delay of the Parousia? The end times seem to be a bit slow in arriving for these guys...

"If it tarries, wait for it, for it shall surely come and shall not be late" [Hab 2.3b].

Interpreted, this concerns the men of truth who keep the Law, whose hands shall not slacken in the service of truth when the final age is prolonged. For all the ages of God reach their appointed end as he determines for them in the mysteries of His wisdom.

["But the righteous shall live by his faith"] [[Hab 2.4b]].

Interpreted, this concerns all those who observe the Law in the House of Judah, whom God will deliver from the House of Judgement because of their suffering and because of their faith in the Teacher of Righteousness.

And here we see a slightly different take than Paul's on this particular verse. Faith alone is not enough, without the observance of the Law.

This is the very same issue between Paul and James that we see in the Epistle of James in the Bible.

"Moreover, the arrogant man seizes wealth without halting. He widens his gullet like hell and like death he has never enough. All the nations are gathered to him and all the peoples are assembled to him. Will they not all of them taunt him and jeer at him saying, 'Woe to him who amasses that which is not his! How long will he load himself up with pledges?'" [[Hab 2.5-6]].

Interpreted, this concerns the Wicked Priest who 9/ was called by the name of truth when he first arose. But when he ruled over Israel his heart became proud, and he forsook God and betrayed the precepts for the sake of riches. He robbed and amassed the riches of the
men of violence who rebelled against God, and he took the wealth of the peoples, heaping sinful iniquity upon himself. And he lived in the ways of abominations amidst every unclean defilement.

"Shall not your oppressors suddenly arise and your torturers awaken; and shall you not become their prey? Because you have plundered many nations, all the remnant of the peoples shall plunder you" [Hab 2.7-8a].

[Interpreted, this concerns] the Priest who rebelled [and violated] precepts [of God . . . to command] ...

Sounds very much like a description of a corrupt Herodian Priest like Ananus ben Ananus.

And as for that which He said, "because you have plundered many nations, all the remnant of the peoples shall plunder you":

Interpreted this concerns the last Priests of Jerusalem, who shall amass money and wealth by plundering the peoples. But in the last days, their riches and booty shall be delivered into the hands of the army of the Kittim, For it is they who shall be "the remnant of the peoples."

"Because of the blood of men and the violence done to the land, to the city, and to all its inhabitants" [Hab 2.8b].

Interpreted, this concerns the Wicked Priest whom God delivered into the hands of his enemies because of the iniquity committed against the Teacher of Righteousness and the men of his Council, that he might be humbled by means of a destroying scourge, in bitterness
of soul, because he had done wickedly to His elect.

The last Priests? No more ever again?

The description of the death of the Wicked Priest matches the death of Ananus Jnr in Josephus:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/history/flavius-josephus/war-of-the-jews/book-4/chapter-5.html
Josephus said:
.
But the rage of the Idumeans was not satiated by these slaughters; but they now betook themselves to the city, and plundered every house, and slew every one they met; and for the other multitude, they esteemed it needless to go on with killing them, but they sought for the high priests, and the generality went with the greatest zeal against them; and as soon as they caught them they slew them, and then standing upon their dead bodies, in way of jest, upbraided Ananus with his kindness to the people, and Jesus with his speech made to them from the wall. Nay, they proceeded to that degree of impiety, as to cast away their dead bodies without burial, although the Jews used to take so much care of the burial of men, that they took down those that were condemned and crucified, and buried them before the going down of the sun.

I also note just after this passage is a long one praising Ananus and saying that his death was the reason for the fall of Jerusalem. Eisenman thinks this might be the passage that early Church Fathers said was applied to James, but doesn't exist any more:
...
I should not mistake if I said that the death of Ananus was the beginning of the destruction of the city, and that from this very day may be dated the overthrow of her wall, and the ruin of her affairs, whereon they saw their high priest, and the procurer of their preservation, slain in the midst of their city. He was on other accounts also a venerable, and a very just man; and besides the grandeur of that nobility, and dignity, and honor of which he was possessed, he had been a lover of a kind of parity, even with regard to the meanest of the people; he was a prodigious lover of liberty, and an admirer of a democracy in government; and did ever prefer the public welfare before his own advantage, and preferred peace above all things; for he was thoroughly sensible that the Romans were not to be conquered. He also foresaw that of necessity a war would follow, and that unless the Jews made up matters with them very dexterously, they would be destroyed; to say all in a word, if Ananus had survived, they had certainly compounded matters; for he was a shrewd man in speaking and persuading the people, and had already gotten the mastery of those that opposed his designs, or were for the war.

And the Jews had then put abundance of delays in the way of the Romans, if they had had such a general as he was. Jesus was also joined with him; and although he was inferior to him upon the comparison, he was superior to the rest; and I cannot but think that it was because God had doomed this city to destruction, as a polluted city, and was resolved to purge his sanctuary by fire, that he cut off these their great defenders and well-wishers, while those that a little before had worn the sacred garments, and had presided over the public worship; and had been esteemed venerable by those that dwelt on the whole habitable earth when they came into our city, were cast out naked, and seen to be the food of dogs and wild beasts. And I cannot but imagine that virtue itself groaned at these men's case, and lamented that she was here so terribly conquered by wickedness. And this at last was the end of Ananus and Jesus...

Earlier Josephus refers to this Ananus as arrogant and corrupt and not popular at all. Did someone mess about with this passage to minimise the influence of James? I don't know.

Anyway, on with the Pesharim:
Column 10 - "condemned House"

that its stones might be laid in oppression and the beam of its woodwork in robbery. And as for that which he said, "by cutting off many peoples you have forfeited your own soul":

Interpreted this concerns the condemned House whose judgement God will pronounce in the midst of many peoples. He will bring him thence for judgement and will declare him guilty in the midst of them, and will chastise him with fire of brimstone.

Column 10 - "the city is Jerusalem"

And as for that which he said, "because of the blood of the city and the violence done to the land":

Interpreted, the city is Jerusalem where the Wicked Priest committed abominable deeds and defiled the Temple of God. The violence done to the land: these are the cities of Judah where he robbed the poor of their possessions.

I'm not sure whose "House" is being condemned, but the Wicked Priest is at work in the Jerusalem Temple, committing abominations and robbing the poor.

The Temple Priests were doing that stuff in Herod's time.

OK. That's Habakkuk. I'll be back later to look at the next one.

Cheers.
 
Yeah, Habkkuk is out, unfortunately however.
It is too early to have been written after the 3J's.

At latest it is around 1-5 CE with most of the weight for its date being back to 100 BCE or more range.

Also, Ananus ben Ananus was only High Priest for about a year before being tossed; he was replaced by Joshua ben Damneus in the same year.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_High_Priests_of_Israel

Also, this:
And here we see a slightly different take than Paul's on this particular verse. Faith alone is not enough, without the observance of the Law.

This is the very same issue between Paul and James that we see in the Epistle of James in the Bible.
Paul's view was at odds with every Jewish tradition; not just James.
 
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Yeah, the more I think on it, the more improbable Ananus ben Ananus is, as that would mean that the Pesherum we are looking for are any written after 63 CE.

There's only one Pesher that might stretch that far (4Q171), which does feature a "Wicked Priest" once in its text, but to apply Ananus ben Ananus to this title would mean that this text was written in a five year window before all hell breaks loose, and would serve as the only text capable of mentioning Ananus ben Ananus.

I think the probabilities rule him out logistically, even though his actions may be inviting to line him up characteristically.

Ananus didn't even serve on the seat for a full year, either.
He was seated the same year the previous Priest left, and outed in the same year; essentially just long enough to get the blame for the death of James (which may not even belong to him; Josephus could have been wrong since there were three priests in that year).
 
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Yeah, the more I think on it, the more improbable Ananus ben Ananus is, as that would mean that the Pesherum we are looking for are any written after 63 CE.

There's only one Pesher that might stretch that far (4Q171), which does feature a "Wicked Priest" once in its text, but to apply Ananus ben Ananus to this title would mean that this text was written in a five year window before all hell breaks loose, and would serve as the only text capable of mentioning Ananus ben Ananus.

I think the probabilities rule him out logistically, even though his actions may be inviting to line him up characteristically.

Ananus didn't even serve on the seat for a full year, either.
He was seated the same year the previous Priest left, and outed in the same year; essentially just long enough to get the blame for the death of James (which may not even belong to him; Josephus could have been wrong since there were three priests in that year).

Well OK.

I'm not sure it's impossible that these Pesharim were written in the last years of the Community, if G A Rodley is right about them being an ephemeral form of writings.

I thought we had already decided that c14 was no good for precise dating because of the error margins, and we can't be sure how old the parchment was when the text was written.

Ananus might have only held the official title of High Priest for a brief time, but according to Josephus he was a pretty influential character for quite a while.

I'm off out for a while now. I'll cast my untutored eye over this one next: 4Q161-165: 4QpIsa a-e (Isaiah pesher)

Can't wait for that one...

 
Right, I'm not resting on the C14 dating; the paleography itself doesn't lend a very good line up with a late dating (of course, if I toss out C14, then 171 loses its champion date to the late 1st c CE, which is the main text that offers your idea some minor chance of any light).

To reach that far out with Habakkuk we have to remove C14 (done), remove paleography (I hazard against that), and then imagine a window of opportunity of about 5 years to write everything down for no one to read before everything is wiped out.

It's not very convincing and it seems more like we're cutting off our toes to fit the slipper on.

I feel that it's worth mentioning that the mass majority of academia does hold that the Wicked Priest is a reference to a Hasmonean Priest.

While I cannot isolate to specific names, nor do I think that will ever be accomplished, I do agree with the general idea that the term was morphological in application (Florentino García Martinez proposes a similar idea, but goes on to identify the candidates; I am not quite so certain on his selection, nor am I certain a selection can be obtained).


Again, we cannot negate the paleography, or if we do, then we might as well not bother with doing history and anthropology at all, as negating that is to neglect one of our only means of identifying any text in history and if we do that, then we could just start assigning out character roles to just about anyone as long as we can make the context fit.

In the case of Judah, the same things continued to happen over and over to these people, so it is very easy to see the same context in 2nd c BCE, 1st c BCE, and 1st c CE.

However, one aspect that is noted as not applicable to the 1st c CE Priests compared to the Hasmonean priests of earlier is that only the Hasmonean Priests had the logistical and political capacity for military action against other nations and peoples.

I feel that's worth noting.
 
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...
Again, we cannot negate the paleography, or if we do, then we might as well not bother with doing history and anthropology at all, as negating that is to neglect one of our only means of identifying any text in history and if we do that, then we could just start assigning out character roles to just about anyone as long as we can make the context fit.

...

I don't think Paleography helps in cases where there are no texts of proven dating to compare the Scrolls to. We don't have other examples of scrolls from the same period to compare them with, so nobody can tell how old they are by the type of characters they use.

Paleography is fairly imprecise at the best of times, but in the case of the DSS, it is not very useful for much beyond identifying individual scribes from their handwriting.

If they had eight years from the death of James until the destruction of Qumran, that is certainly long enough for a big group like this to produce a handful of Pesharim about the momentous events going on around them.

How long do you think it takes to fit ancient prophecy into contemporary events? Fundies do it here all the time with the book of Revelation, it usually doesn't take very long.
 
We certainly have texts to compare with, they are not that level of unique.
They follow the same script patterns as all other texts in the region evolutionarily.

Also, you have to look at the whole archeological picture.

Everything points to very, very little work being done in the 1st c CE, and a wealth of it in the 1st c BCE, with a starting group back in the late 2nd c BCE.

We can assign, and have, the contexts to the Hasmonean era without much challenge, and without negating archeological and paleographical evidence.

To get everything up to 1st c CE we have to dismiss quite a bit.
 
We should also not forget that messianic tradition was not exclusive to Jesus and James, so it's not odd for a group to have its own messianic prophecies that have nothing to do with Jesus or James.
 
We should also not forget that messianic tradition was not exclusive to Jesus and James, so it's not odd for a group to have its own messianic prophecies that have nothing to do with Jesus or James.

OK. but how common was the idea of a Jewish Priest teaching against the Laws Of Moses?

You say this about Paul:
Paul's view was at odds with every Jewish tradition; not just James.

So if the "Spouter of Lies" isn't Paul, who is it? Who was going around amongst the congregation of those "Zealous for the law" and preaching against Moses?

Do we know of anyone else who fits that description? Or was Paul just one of many such "Lawless Men"?
 
Yeah, Habkkuk is out, unfortunately however.
It is too early to have been written after the 3J's.

At latest it is around 1-5 CE with most of the weight for its date being back to 100 BCE or more range.

Also, Ananus ben Ananus was only High Priest for about a year before being tossed; he was replaced by Joshua ben Damneus in the same year.
This is the Jesus Ben Damneus mentioned in a passage in Josephus which also allegedly mentions the gospel Jesus. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus
The works of Josephus refer to at least twenty different people with the name Jesus, and in chapter 9 of Book 20, there is also a reference to Jesus son of Damneus who was a High Priest of Israel but is distinct from the reference to "Jesus called Christ" mentioned along with the identification of James. John Painter states that phrase "who was called Christ" is used by Josephus in this passage "by way of distinguishing him from others of the same name such as the high priest Jesus son of Damneus, or Jesus son of Gamaliel" both having been mentioned by Josephus in this context.
But others think the reference is to ben Damneus, and not the gospel Jesus, and that "called Christ" is a later interpolation, derived possibly from a marginal gloss.
 
OK. but how common was the idea of a Jewish Priest teaching against the Laws Of Moses?
In the Hasmonean dynasty?
Hugely common. As I noted before, Alcimus (as just one example of many) was more hated than probably any Priest before him (one may even argue even after him, but King Jonathan taking High Priest and King in one swoop gives him a run for the title).
He was pro-Hellinization and even tore down the wall separating the court of Gentiles and the court of Israelites; that's a HUGE upset.

His reign as High Priest was filled with poluting the texts, traditions, rituals, and laws with anti-Moses constructs.

Also...he was very noted as exceptionally cruel and torturous.

So if the "Spouter of Lies" isn't Paul, who is it? Who was going around amongst the congregation of those "Zealous for the law" and preaching against Moses?

Do we know of anyone else who fits that description? Or was Paul just one of many such "Lawless Men"?
Jonathan or Alcimus are both good candidates.
Alcimus because of his treachery, Jonathan because he was a Maccabee and was expected to continue the Maccabean Zadok sympathy, but instead betrayed the people and took complete and single ownership of King and High Priest, making allegiances with the enemies of Judah in trade for wealth and power unto himself.
 
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This is the Jesus Ben Damneus mentioned in a passage in Josephus which also allegedly mentions the gospel Jesus. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus But others think the reference is to ben Damneus, and not the gospel Jesus, and that "called Christ" is a later interpolation, derived possibly from a marginal gloss.
Interesting.
I'm not a huge Josephus expert, so that's interesting to learn.
 
Interesting.
I'm not a huge Josephus expert, so that's interesting to learn.
Yes, it's the ONLY first century reference to Jesus outside devotional literature, that is agreed to be genuine by the bulk of scholars. The other Josephan reference (the "Testimonium Flavianum", Ant. 18.3.3) is very much more controversial, and there is no reference to Jesus at all by any other first century author.
 
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For me, "Jesus", is more of an anthropological insight.
It shows how the Messianic movements were seen outside of Judah, and to some lesser extent within Judah.

It would not surprise me, however, if the individual never actually existed as that has happened countless times in Hebraic history, and receiving non-Hebrew cultures wouldn't really be capable of discerning the differences of one messianic tale from another - they would all seem to be easily about the same Hebrew guy.

The variant differences between different messianic sects within Judah requires understanding very pedantic levels of Hebrew law and value; something most cultures thought were very strange and backwoods to them.

Culturally speaking, there is enough social psychology to permit "Jesus" being a composite concept.

It's a bit hard to prove, either way, however - like so many things when dealing with the Hebrew history.
 

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