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Paul The Herodian and the DSS

I was just browsing the Atheism+ thread where someone was quoting a few posts where the in-group were demonising their opponents. "This looks familiar", I thought, "maybe instead of Essenes, Zealots, or whatever, we should call this Qumran Community : Judaism+

What do you reckon?

I imagine Ischemgeek or someone, hunched over a parchment, quill in hand, writing an exegesis of PZ Myers' latest blog...


I don't think it would look all that different.

PZ Myers the Teacher Of Wrongteousness...


Sorry.

Coffee time...
 
Alrighty then, I've had some sleep, coffee and a banana. I think I'm ready to tackle the Melchizedek Midrash (sounds like a Victorian Stage Magician...)

11Q13: 11QMelch (the Melchizedek Midrash)
http://otstory.wordpress.com/2008/04/17/melchizedek-in-11q13-11qmelch/
Translation of of 11Q 13 (11QMelch) Col. II
1 [...] … [...]
2 [...] And as for what he said: Lev 25:13 « In [this] year of jubilee, [you shall return, each one, to his respective property », concerning it he said: Deut 15:2 « Th]is is
3 [the manner of the release:] every creditor shall release what he lent [to his neighbour. He shall not coerce his neighbour or his brother, for it has been proclaimed] a release
4 for G[od ». Its interpretation] for the last days refers to the captives, who [...] and whose
5 teachers have been hidden and kept secret, and from the inheritance of Melchizedek, fo[r ...] … and they are the inherita[nce of Melchize]dek, who
6 will make them return. And liberty will be proclaimed for them, to free them from [the debt of] all their iniquities.

I'll just note here that Josephus tells us that the first thing the Zealots did when they took cities was to burn the debt records, so the poor could get out of debts owing to the rich.

It was a classic "Class Struggle" of Rich V Poor. Everybody except the Romans lost.

And this [wil]l [happen]
7 in the first week of the jubilee which follows the ni[ne] jubilees. And the d[ay of aton]ement is the e[nd of] the tenth [ju]bilee
8 in which atonement shall be made for all the sons of [light and] for the men [of] the lot of Mel[chi]zedek. [...] … over [the]m … [...] accor[ding to] a[ll] their [wor]ks, for
9 it is the time for the « year of grace » of Melchizedek, and of [his] arm[ies, the nat]ion of the holy ones of God, of the rule of judgment,

The day of Atonement is Yom Kippur if I'm not mistaken, but I don't know if that applies here.

I know I need to learn more about the 1st c. BCE, but this is the kind of stuff which Eisenman says dates these Pesharim to the 1st c. CE.

as is written
10 about him in the songs of David, who said: Ps 82:1 « Elohim will [st]and in the assem[bly of God,] in the midst of the gods he judges ». And about him he sai[d: Ps 7:8-9 « And] above [it,]
11 to the heights, return: God will judge the peoples ». As for what he sa[id: Ps 82:2 « How long will you] judge unjustly and show partia[lity] to the wicked? [Se]lah. »
12 Its interpretation concerns Belial and the spirits of his lot, wh[o ...] turn[ing aside] from the commandments of God to [commit evil.]
13 But, Melchizedek will carry out the vengeance of Go[d's] judgments, [and on that day he will fr]e[e them from the hand of] Belial and from the hand of all the sp[irits of his lot.]
14 To his aid (shall come) all « the gods of [justice »; and h]e is the one w[ho ...] all the sons of God, and … [...]

OK: "all « the gods of [justice " and "all the sons of God"? How many were there?

This bit is confusing me.

15 This [...] is the day of [peace about whi]ch he said [... through Isa]iah the prophet, who said: [Isa 52:7 « How] beautiful
16 upon the mountains are the feet [of] the messen[ger who] announces peace, the mess[enger of good who announces salvati]on, [sa]ying to Zion: your God [reigns. »]
17 Its interpretation: The mountains [are] the prophet[s ...] … [...] for all … [...]
18 And the messenger i the anointed of the spir[it] as Dan[iel] said [about him: Dan 9:25 « Until an anointed, a prince, it is seven weeks. » And the messenger of]
19 good who announ[ces salvation] is the one about whom it is written that [...]


What?

What is written?

Blessed are the Cheesemakers?

20 « To comfo[rt] the [afflicted », its interpretation:] to instruct them in all the ages of the wo[rld ...]
21 in truth … [...] … [...]
22 [...] has turned away from Belial and will re[turn ...] … [...]
23 [...] in the judgment[s of] God, as is written about him: [Isa 52:7 « Saying to Zi]on: your God rules. » [« Zi]on » i
24 [the congregation of all the sons of justice, those] who establish the covenant, those who avoid walking [on the pa]th of the people. And « your God » is
25 [... Melchizedek, who will fr]e[e them from the ha]nd of Belial. And as for what he said: Lev 25:9 « You shall blow the hor[n in] all the [l]and of...


Gondor?

Tasmania?

I'll hazard a guess that the missing word is "Judah". I could be wrong...

The translation is taken from Dead Sea Scrolls Study Edition (eds.García Martinez and Eibert J. C. Tigchelaar, 1209). Highlights in the translation indicate the parts of the Old Testament verses

That's it for your first list Jayson.

Were there different ones on the second list?
 
OK. Next Pesher up is Nahum.\

I like reading these things, crazy I know, but it is a weird feeling to read this stuff knowing that it was buried for 2000 years and the guy whose words I'm reading now, whose handwriting I can see in those photos, possibly even spots of whose sweat dripped onto that parchment, would never believe that someone like me would ever see those words. I would be an abomination to that guy, we all would.

It's a bizarre combination of connection with these people and total alienation from their beliefs. Weird.
That's the joy of it! :D

Just looks like more of the same to me. The liar is at it again. A reference to the Romans coming after the Greeks. No Greeks from the time of Antiochus until the Romans show up.

How does that fit your time-line Jayson?
That's historically accurate, and the entire kick-off to the Maccabean revolt.
The Greeks mostly left the Jews alone for quite a while (technically, the Greeks stopped being officially in charge in the Ptolemaic dynasty, but that dynasty from Egyptian politics was established by Alexander the Great, and so was the Seleucid Empire, so the Jews kind of considered these "Greek" 'states' of rule - though the Greek's mostly didn't bother with them and left them to themselves), but in 168, Antiochus IV desecrated the Temple and that motivated the first Jewish revolt (Maccabees).

This is what brought about the Hasmonean dynasty which lasted, mostly in civil war, until the Romans stepped in and sent all the squabbling children to their corners.
That worked for a while until the 2nd Jewish Revolt in the 1st c CE.

Re the bolds: Is that 40 years another one of these "time to completion" things, rather than a literal 40 years? Because you just know I'm thinking 30 CE plus 40 years, equals 70 CE.

I have a funny feeling you are going to tell me that it is never that straightforward...
Very likely considering the context is learning, "from Teacher to Desolation".
The desolation may not even be a reference to destruction in the sense of an apocalypse; it may be referring to the destruction of that which haunts during the test.

You know the Narnia series? The island of evil where their inner most fears come to life and they must defeat them?
This is somewhat the idea of the "40" construct; it refers to a time where something must be endured for purification.

At the end of the time it is considered that one destroys their adversary, or the adversary destroys them.

Now tell us what you really think, buddy. Crikey, they worked themselves up a bit in these things didn't they? It's Life Of Brian all over again. Splitters!

There are obvious things in there about the Temple Priests and Ebionim, but I'm trying to remember who Eisenman identifies as the wicked of "Ephraim and Manasseh".
The "dead" tribe of Joseph (Ephraim and Manasseh) being tried and pruned are an Ezekiel prophecy component.
Ergo, why they are talking about a time of trial (40 again), and why they value this interpretation of Psalms (as this interpretation of theirs is bias by their beliefs as a group).

So, they weren't too keen on foreigners these blokes, were they?
No. They consider Gentilian Hebrews a second-class citizen; which is why the early group back in 2nd c BCE have such a motive for absolutely hating Aclimus for being in the High Priest seat.

You might as well have taken fecal matter from an OX for Baal and wiped it over the walls of the Holly of Hollies.

We let them in once before, and look what happened. Never again. Only Good Jews allowed from now on.
Yep, they did "permit" them once before; permit meaning, they didn't stop them.
The Hellenist party was in very powerful control up until the Maccabean take over of Jonathan (though he leaned toward Hellenistic favor), and the Hellenistic party was back in power (technically) with the Herodian Dynasty.

This is one reason why the paleography of 4Q174 supports an early Herodian dynasty timeline as this text is from the perspective of having an absence of the Hellenist party in the Priesthood, and setting down the resistance to accepting the recovery of that party in Preisthood political power again through Herod.

That looks a bit familiar...
Yes, it is a repeated and old traditional prophetic construct probably at least since their Exile period, and possibly even as far back as to the fall of the Kingdom of Israel.

So Belial is the Devil and he has been in charge apparently, but the TOR is all about fixing it up.
Yes, this is a second temple phrase and focus.
Belial is a figure of worthless men (the word/name literally means worth no value).
Essentially, not surprisingly, the Hebrews (being the extremists that they were) despised idle citizens who sat by and did nothing, nor ever attempted to struggle for their cultural survival, or work to maintain the adherence to the Law.

"Lazy" was quite frowned upon, and they saw wealthy civilizations and leaders who sat around in wealth and pleasure as belial, indeed.

What do you reckon?
Personally, I think the Qumran group belongs recognized under the Zadokite faction, as the Zadok are extremely crucial and valued by them.

They are, essentially, a last remaining sect of the practically killed off Zadok party, which lost its official footing in "parliament" (priesthood).

This is partly why I think it must be maintained as a unique culture; this is a very unique opportunity.
We very rarely get to see anything out of a given political party after they are kicked out from the official circles; this group managed to keep going with a small following (yes, no matter the number, it's smaller than it was when the Zadok was officially in power and people could side with them politically).

I'll just note here that Josephus tells us that the first thing the Zealots did when they took cities was to burn the debt records, so the poor could get out of debts owing to the rich.

It was a classic "Class Struggle" of Rich V Poor. Everybody except the Romans lost.
This Hasmonean era Pesher isn't discussing money, exactly.
It's discussing moral debt, which (you have to keep in mind) was mixed with being equal in money under Hebrew laws (you could be 'fined' for a moral wrong upon another).

This is essentially talking about the day of judgement and balance of dues among all.

The day of Atonement is Yom Kippur if I'm not mistaken, but I don't know if that applies here.

I know I need to learn more about the 1st c. BCE, but this is the kind of stuff which Eisenman says dates these Pesharim to the 1st c. CE.
No.
Yom Kippur is pretty much as old as the Hebrews.
It's in Leviticus, which obviously predates the 1st c CE.

Leviticus 23:28
26 The Lord said to Moses, 27 “The tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. Hold a sacred assembly and deny yourselves,[a] and present a food offering to the Lord. 28 Do not do any work on that day, because it is the Day of Atonement, when atonement is made for you before the Lord your God.

OK: "all « the gods of [justice " and "all the sons of God"? How many were there?

This bit is confusing me.
That's because you've been reading English translations of the Bible (no fault of yours) and the English translations would have you believe only one individual was ever called a son of god, when in fact that title is very common as a reference to Hebrews in general.

Notice, too, that in this text (an early Hasmonean text) the Hebrew culture still has the remains of polytheism in it; that instead, they are to simply only worship their god (El) and not the lesser gods.
"To his aid shall come all the gods of justice..."

By the 1st c CE, however, this kind of talk disappears.

What?

What is written?

Blessed are the Cheesemakers?
Hold up one shoe and let the other be upon our foot, for this is His sign!

Gondor?

Tasmania?

I'll hazard a guess that the missing word is "Judah". I could be wrong...
Disney Land!

Yes, probably Judah, (since this is a citation of Leviticus' section on blowing trumpets upon entering the land given to them by their god) but they probably used a flavored way of labeling the area like the Land of God's children, or something of that form.

That's it for your first list Jayson.

Were there different ones on the second list?
No, the first list was all Pesharim, the second list was all Pesharim within the 1st c CE time period (very tiny amount).
 
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That's the joy of it! :D

Indeed. I love it.

...{snip}...
No.
Yom Kippur is pretty much as old as the Hebrews.
It's in Leviticus, which obviously predates the 1st c CE.

Leviticus 23:28
26 The Lord said to Moses, 27 “The tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. Hold a sacred assembly and deny yourselves,[a] and present a food offering to the Lord. 28 Do not do any work on that day, because it is the Day of Atonement, when atonement is made for you before the Lord your God.
...

I just want to address this point for now: I meant the other stuff about who was Atoning for what, rather than the idea that Yom Kippur was a new thing.

One at least of the early church fathers said that James had knees like a camel because he spent so much time praying for Israel.

Shame they didn't have a prayer event at the Olympics, he would have been on the podium for sure.
 
I don't follow; the section doesn't really talk about anyone being super pious specifically; it just praises Yom Kippur...
 
I don't follow; the section doesn't really talk about anyone being super pious specifically; it just praises Yom Kippur...

I'll try to explain:

And this [wil]l [happen]
7 in the first week of the jubilee which follows the ni[ne] jubilees. And the d[ay of aton]ement is the e[nd of] the tenth [ju]bilee
8 in which atonement shall be made for all the sons of [light and] for the men [of] the lot of Mel[chi]zedek. [...] … over [the]m … [...] accor[ding to] a[ll] their [wor]ks, for
9 it is the time for the « year of grace » of Melchizedek, and of [his] arm[ies, the nat]ion of the holy ones of God, of the rule of judgment,

I wasn't meaning just this passage as such, but references to "Sons of Light", the "Holy Ones Of God" etc reference 1st c. CE tropes.

But as usual I can see I need to read more about this.
 
I'll try to explain:

I wasn't meaning just this passage as such, but references to "Sons of Light", the "Holy Ones Of God" etc reference 1st c. CE tropes.

But as usual I can see I need to read more about this.
As long as you don't write more about it! :D
 
Yes.

OK, I see what you are asking.

Here's a quick summary, go-go wiki:
Sons of Light, consisting of the sons of Levi, the sons of Judah, and the sons of Benjamin, and the exiled of the desert, against Edom, Moab, the sons of Ammon, the Amalekites, and Philistia and their allies the Kittim of Asshur (referred to collectively as the army of Belial)

Identification time.

Edom and Moab are distinctly Hasmonean era.
The Moabites ceased to exist some time after the Persian period (we're not exactly sure when), but they were certainly not around by the 1st c BCE, let alone the 1st c CE.

Edomites are almost entirely the volume of the Maccabean/Hasmonean era (same era as the dating for this text by paleography).

The power of the sons of Ammon was pretty much gone after the Hasmonean era, and only really pop up in mention (pretty much anywhere) in relation to the Maccabean turmoils.

Amalekites...well...that's hard to pin down as to who was being referenced really.
Essentially they are Edomites, but just a familial branch difference from Edom, but they aren't really mentioned much outside of the Bible so it's hard to place this one anywhere.

Philistia officially, by our way of labeling things, died out just after the Kingdom of Israel was formed, however, Hebrews kind of associated them with Assyrians who conquered the land of Philistia and acquired their civilization into their ranks; it's also thought that this may be the group that became Palestine, but that's not yet proven officially.


Now, the Kittim of Asshur pretty much nails the timeline down for this reference as there's only one group that fits Asshur, the Assyrians.

In this context, we can see why there is debate on the name, "Kittim", which really just means foreigner.

Elsewhere, due to the descriptions that accompany "Kittim" in those sections, we can lean towards Roman by the description.

However, every instance of "Kittim" essentially has to be looked at as a potential for another group.
The odd question here becomes why would they call the Assyrians both Asshur and Kittim, but that is answered a different way; this is most likely referring to Greeks who were of alliance with Assyria in the Neo-Assyrian Empire and regularly assisted their empire, and later came to own it in the Ptolemaic and Seleucidic ruling periods (just before the Maccabean revolt).

It cannot, however, be a reference this time to Romans as Romans are not of Assyria until 46 years after the destruction of the second Temple.
 
I'm not sure that all of that contradicts what Eisenman has been telling me. Although it possibly contradicts some of the things I've said in this thread, that would be my fault, not Eisenman's.

He says that this group are these "Sons of Zadok". He says that they maintained their traditions in exile in "the wilderness" and that they formed what amounted to what we might call an "Opposition Party" to the Herodian Temple Priesthood.

They might have started out small in the 2nd c. BCE, but as the Herodians continued to abuse power, their support grew.

JTB was so popular, Herod decided he had to kill him or risk a rebellion. Possibly a similar story with Jesus. James was a bit different, because he was more of a "peace-maker" than the other two and by James' time the movement had grown even bigger.

James was waiting for God to start the war, whereas someone else in that position might have been more militant.

So Eisenman sees a continuity all the way through from the earliest scrolls to the later ones.

I'm not sure I was fully aware of that before.
 
The physical evidence of this group isn't that they started out small.
It's more that they started out reasonably sized, swelled in the 1st c BCE a decent bit, and then teetered off around the 1st c CE to a smaller size.

I don't doubt that they still existed in the 1st c CE, but I do doubt that they had anything directly to do with James or John the Baptist.

Sharing some rituals isn't really enough to convince me of anything as lots of rituals are shared by multitudes of factional sects.

The content, however, except for a very small amount of Pesharim, is almost exclusively within the context of the ~160 BCE range of identifications and world views.

As mentioned before, no one in the 1st c CE was talking about a polytheistic view of the divine, yet clearly here such was the case in some of the older texts.

Most of the texts that, if I understand correctly, Eisenman relies on for linking to his cast of characters are texts that are too far dated back to apply to his choices.

This probably explains why he has to dismiss an array of evidence regarding their dates (not just the C14, but everything has to be tossed basically; ignore the linen, the coins, the site, the paleography as well).

The standard view of Hasmonean and early Herodian dynasty for the primary volume of texts doesn't have to negate these things and claim that academics are conspiring to rig the evidence to suit their position (or some other claim such as the archaeological evidence gathering being flawed or done wrong by every group that has been involved and only Eisenman has seen the truth).

It's a big reach.

Could they have bumped elbows with JTB or James?
Maybe.

But I wouldn't just start jumping on Eisenman's elaborate wagon based on a maybe they knew of them.

This is the list we have to work with of possibly 1st c CE range texts to build a case from:
4Q161-165 (30 BCE - 30 CE) [o]
4Q171 & 173 (1 CE - 100 CE) C14 [o]
4Q174 (30 BCE - 30 CE) [o]
4Q177 (~30 - 40 CE) [o]

All other text's contexts and script form date them reasonably earlier than the 1st c CE.
 
The physical evidence of this group isn't that they started out small.
It's more that they started out reasonably sized, swelled in the 1st c BCE a decent bit, and then teetered off around the 1st c CE to a smaller size.

I don't doubt that they still existed in the 1st c CE, but I do doubt that they had anything directly to do with James or John the Baptist.

Sharing some rituals isn't really enough to convince me of anything as lots of rituals are shared by multitudes of factional sects.

The content, however, except for a very small amount of Pesharim, is almost exclusively within the context of the ~160 BCE range of identifications and world views.

As mentioned before, no one in the 1st c CE was talking about a polytheistic view of the divine, yet clearly here such was the case in some of the older texts.

Most of the texts that, if I understand correctly, Eisenman relies on for linking to his cast of characters are texts that are too far dated back to apply to his choices.

This probably explains why he has to dismiss an array of evidence regarding their dates (not just the C14, but everything has to be tossed basically; ignore the linen, the coins, the site, the paleography as well).

The standard view of Hasmonean and early Herodian dynasty for the primary volume of texts doesn't have to negate these things and claim that academics are conspiring to rig the evidence to suit their position (or some other claim such as the archaeological evidence gathering being flawed or done wrong by every group that has been involved and only Eisenman has seen the truth).

It's a big reach.

Could they have bumped elbows with JTB or James?
Maybe.

But I wouldn't just start jumping on Eisenman's elaborate wagon based on a maybe they knew of them.

This is the list we have to work with of possibly 1st c CE range texts to build a case from:
4Q161-165 (30 BCE - 30 CE) [o]
4Q171 & 173 (1 CE - 100 CE) C14 [o]
4Q174 (30 BCE - 30 CE) [o]
4Q177 (~30 - 40 CE) [o]

All other text's contexts and script form date them reasonably earlier than the 1st c CE.

Well, OK.

I'm still not convinced, but I have to say the evidence does seem to be stacked against me here.

The Polytheistic stuff, isn't that just there because it's in Deuteronomy, though?

The C 14 dating has very wide error margins and Paleography is notoriously inaccurate, so I still think there may be a sliver of a chance.

I know virtually no one agrees, but it wouldn't be the first time I've adopted an unpopular position.

Thanks for going through all this with me Jayson.

One thing no one seems to have commented on was that passage from Josephus about Ananus and the idea that it is the paragraph that Origen referenced when he said Josephus blamed the destruction of Jerusalem on the death of James.

Origen Against Celsus 1:47 said:
...
But he [Josephus] himself, though not believing in Jesus as Christ, in seeking the cause of the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, whereas he ought to have said that the conspiracy against Jesus was the cause of these things happening to the people, since they killed the prophecied Christ, even says, being unwillingly not far from the truth, that these things befell the Jews as vengeance for James the just, who was a brother of Jesus who is called Christ, since they killed him who was most just. Paul, a genuine disciple of Jesus, says that he saw this James as a brother of the Lord, not so much on account of their relationship by blood or of their common upbringing as on account of his ethics and speech. If, therefore, he says that the things surrounding the desolation of Jerusalem befell the Jews on account of James, how is it not more reasonable to say that it happened on account of Jesus the Christ?...



Do you think this could be that passage, with James removed and Ananus written in its place?:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/history/flavius-josephus/war-of-the-jews/book-4/chapter-5.html
...
I should not mistake if I said that the death of Ananus James was the beginning of the destruction of the city, and that from this very day may be dated the overthrow of her wall, and the ruin of her affairs, whereon they saw their high priest, and the procurer of their preservation, slain in the midst of their city. He was on other accounts also a venerable, and a very just man; and besides the grandeur of that nobility, and dignity, and honor of which he was possessed, he had been a lover of a kind of parity, even with regard to the meanest of the people; he was a prodigious lover of liberty, and an admirer of a democracy in government; and did ever prefer the public welfare before his own advantage, and preferred peace above all things; for he was thoroughly sensible that the Romans were not to be conquered. He also foresaw that of necessity a war would follow, and that unless the Jews made up matters with them very dexterously, they would be destroyed; to say all in a word, if Ananus James had survived, they had certainly compounded matters; for he was a shrewd man in speaking and persuading the people, and had already gotten the mastery of those that opposed his designs, or were for the war.

And the Jews had then put abundance of delays in the way of the Romans, if they had had such a general as he was. Jesus was also joined with him; and although he was inferior to him upon the comparison, he was superior to the rest; and I cannot but think that it was because God had doomed this city to destruction, as a polluted city, and was resolved to purge his sanctuary by fire, that he cut off these their great defenders and well-wishers, while those that a little before had worn the sacred garments, and had presided over the public worship; and had been esteemed venerable by those that dwelt on the whole habitable earth when they came into our city, were cast out naked, and seen to be the food of dogs and wild beasts. And I cannot but imagine that virtue itself groaned at these men's case, and lamented that she was here so terribly conquered by wickedness. And this at last was the end of Ananus James and Jesus...

That's with my little modifications added. If this passage was originally about James, would that mean that the Jesus there is a reference to a HJ?

I know, if if if if...
 
There I was, thinking I could quit just like that. Cold Turkey as it were.

Then I thought I should post just once more to tidy up some loose ends, like Paul in a Basket and Menahem etc, but people can look those guys up themselves.

But while I was looking I found another passage that I thought looked kind of odd:

...As for the priests, some of them plucked up from the holy house the spikes that were upon it, with their bases, which were made of lead, and shot them at the Romans instead of darts. But then as they gained nothing by so doing, and as the fire burst out upon them, they retired to the wall that was eight cubits broad, and there they tarried; yet did two of these of eminence among them, who might have saved themselves by going over to the Romans, or have borne up with courage, and taken their fortune with the others, throw themselves into the fire, and were burnt together with the holy house; their names were Meirus the son of Belgas, and Joseph the son of Daleus.

Re the bold: Is he talking about the Menorah? That big pointy candlestick thing they have in Synagogues? If so, wouldn't Josephus call it the "Holy Menorah", "the spikes" seems a bit dismissive, even anti-semitic.

Then realising that my above post was silly for equating James with the Temple Priest Ananus and his pal Jesus son of Damneus. When all along I have been claiming that the people I'm talking about were the hard-core Zealots. The guys who were there in the temple throwing themselves into the fire on the day.

So I thought I'd take a closer look at what our incredibly knowledgeable Jewish Historian Josephus has to say about these chaps.

He starts off by telling us that they were followers of a false Prophet. The Romans basically slaughter their way through the city, until they have the core surrounded in the Temple grounds. The city all around is an enormous pile of dead bodies. And the Temple is on fire...

2. And now the Romans, judging that it was in vain to spare what was round about the holy house, burnt all those places, as also the remains of the cloisters and the gates, two excepted; the one on the east side, and the other on the south; both which, however, they burnt afterward.

They also burnt down the treasury chambers, in which was an immense quantity of money, and an immense number of garments, and other precious goods there reposited; and, to speak all in a few words, there it was that the entire riches of the Jews were heaped up together, while the rich people had there built themselves chambers [to contain such furniture].

The soldiers also came to the rest of the cloisters that were in the outer [court of the] temple, whither the women and children, and a great mixed multitude of the people, fled, in number about six thousand.

But before Caesar had determined any thing about these people, or given the commanders any orders relating to them, the soldiers were in such a rage, that they set that cloister on fire; by which means it came to pass that some of these were destroyed by throwing themselves down headlong, and some were burnt in the cloisters themselves. Nor did any one of them escape with his life.

A false prophet was the occasion of these people's destruction, who had made a public proclamation in the city that very day, that God commanded them to get upon the temple, and that there they should receive miraculous signs of their deliverance. Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose on the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes. Now a man that is in adversity does easily comply with such promises; for when such a seducer makes him believe that he shall be delivered from those miseries which oppress him, then it is that the patient is full of hopes of such his deliverance...

I think the bold (at the least) is an interpolation. These people were not throwing themselves into the fire because of any prophecy "that very day".

What, as the Romans slaughtered them in their thousands?

Someone stopped to make a speech?

And they all just jumped off a cliff?

This is Zealot HQ. Not just a bunch of kids who were off on a lark.

I apologise for the analogy, but this was the Hitler's Bunker, the Nazi Gold and the Hindenburg of the first century all at once. OH THE HUMANITY!!!

I also think it's why the early Church Fathers say that Josephus didn't believe in Christ, and that James was the motivator of the Zealots, not Jesus. And remember, if Eisenman is right they were followers of James, not Jesus.

The Romans Built the Colosseum with the plunder they took that day, well in the course of the whole war, but that Temple had most of the wealth of the country in it.


Anyway I guess I'll leave it there for now, unless anyone thinks there might be something to this idea...

Cheers, its been fun.

ETA:http://www.biblestudytools.com/history/flavius-josephus/war-of-the-jews/book-6/chapter-5.html
 
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Regarding your first post about James or Ananus, unfortunately, the result is, "no".

Also, so is the thought that the second revolt was a response to Ananus killing James.

There's some time not mentioned in those ideas.

There was a conspiracy against Ananus and Ananus was getting power hungry, debatable, but kind of; I would say it's more like the spoiled and entitled rich political boy.

Ananus killing James was more of a political issue than a popularity issue, as Ananus broke a few laws in having James stoned.

King Agrippa was not in Jerusalem and so he was notified, as it was unlawful for a High Priest to judge to an exicution and conduct it in the King's absence.
Then Procurator Albinus was informed, while also being away, that Ananus was assembling the Saducees without the consent of the Procurator; a crime of conspiracy to treason.

For these actions, Ananus was removed as High Priest, even though he had only been in the seat for a few months.

After this, Ananus conspired with the Sanhedrin to politically over throw the remaing in power Zealot party.

John of Giscala had been fighting rebellion battles in the North against the Romans, lost, and escaped to Jerusalem; he wanted more men to fight the Romans with.
He told the Zealots that Ananus had contacted the Romans for an army, and the Zealots sided with those from Edom and allowed them to kill Ananus and his forces, and then they killed many common people as well.

John would continue for a while and the Zealots remained in official power, though in regular uproar, until the destruction of the Temple.

The passage you are reading is discussing a jest at Ananus' expense: "in way of jest, upbraided Ananus with his kindness to his people, and Jesus (ben Ananus, not Ananus ben Ananus' son apparantly) with his speeches to them from the wall."

This Jesus ranted about the coming doom upon the people (procurator classed him as mad); the doom those from Edom now brought with jest.

Upbraided means to scold, they were calling him soft by comparison to what they, from Edom, were about to do; which he was, because he was a political gluten and not a truly violent violent man. He was a son of the most powerful priesthood family in Judah, which is why he was "nice" for the people.

Josephus likes Ananus (former High Priest), and is basically saying that despite his faults - which, you get the impression Josephus thought were small in trade for his talents - Josephus looks at how Ananus used his political slyness to delay and stave off Roman press upon Jerusalem; thinking that had Ananus remained, that political talent may have remained which was capable of wiggling around the Romans, that Jerusalem may have been spared...at least for a bit longer.
As the Zelot party was such that they clearly only lead to death when we look back through the lense of history; so intent on "all or nothing", that they even killed their any Jew who left defeated and alive from battle.

Josephus is saying the start of the end was the day which the Temple was filled with those from Edom, slauthering in the walls of the Temple and then raping and pillaging the citizens at the permission of the Zelot party, who wanted control for themselves and either foolishly thought those from Edom could be trusted, or they didn't care.

He wasn't wrong. This event exploded a 3-way civil war at the same time as the Romans wrapped up sacking almost all of the North and made plans to start strategic moves on Jerusalem, which was in no state to fight with a 3-way civil war taking place.
 
Regarding your first post about James or Ananus, unfortunately, the result is, "no".

Also, so is the thought that the second revolt was a response to Ananus killing James.

There's some time not mentioned in those ideas.

There was a conspiracy against Ananus and Ananus was getting power hungry, debatable, but kind of; I would say it's more like the spoiled and entitled rich political boy.

Ananus killing James was more of a political issue than a popularity issue, as Ananus broke a few laws in having James stoned.

King Agrippa was not in Jerusalem and so he was notified, as it was unlawful for a High Priest to judge to an exicution and conduct it in the King's absence.
Then Procurator Albinus was informed, while also being away, that Ananus was assembling the Saducees without the consent of the Procurator; a crime of conspiracy to treason.

For these actions, Ananus was removed as High Priest, even though he had only been in the seat for a few months.

After this, Ananus conspired with the Sanhedrin to politically over throw the remaing in power Zealot party.

John of Giscala had been fighting rebellion battles in the North against the Romans, lost, and escaped to Jerusalem; he wanted more men to fight the Romans with.
He told the Zealots that Ananus had contacted the Romans for an army, and the Zealots sided with those from Edom and allowed them to kill Ananus and his forces, and then they killed many common people as well.

John would continue for a while and the Zealots remained in official power, though in regular uproar, until the destruction of the Temple.

The passage you are reading is discussing a jest at Ananus' expense: "in way of jest, upbraided Ananus with his kindness to his people, and Jesus (ben Ananus, not Ananus ben Ananus' son apparantly) with his speeches to them from the wall."

This Jesus ranted about the coming doom upon the people (procurator classed him as mad); the doom those from Edom now brought with jest.

Upbraided means to scold, they were calling him soft by comparison to what they, from Edom, were about to do; which he was, because he was a political gluten and not a truly violent violent man. He was a son of the most powerful priesthood family in Judah, which is why he was "nice" for the people.

Josephus likes Ananus (former High Priest), and is basically saying that despite his faults - which, you get the impression Josephus thought were small in trade for his talents - Josephus looks at how Ananus used his political slyness to delay and stave off Roman press upon Jerusalem; thinking that had Ananus remained, that political talent may have remained which was capable of wiggling around the Romans, that Jerusalem may have been spared...at least for a bit longer.
As the Zelot party was such that they clearly only lead to death when we look back through the lense of history; so intent on "all or nothing", that they even killed their any Jew who left defeated and alive from battle.

Josephus is saying the start of the end was the day which the Temple was filled with those from Edom, slauthering in the walls of the Temple and then raping and pillaging the citizens at the permission of the Zelot party, who wanted control for themselves and either foolishly thought those from Edom could be trusted, or they didn't care.

He wasn't wrong. This event exploded a 3-way civil war at the same time as the Romans wrapped up sacking almost all of the North and made plans to start strategic moves on Jerusalem, which was in no state to fight with a 3-way civil war taking place.

Yes, but what about the next post along where I realised my error. In Eisenman's Hypothesis these people: John of Gischala, Eleazar, Simon, John etc were all more like lieutenants in the James movement who had been jockeying for power amongst themselves since James the Just was killed.

Then of course Menahem shows up uninvited and throws his weight around for a while, but not for long.

I keep spotting connections where I wasn't expecting to see them. I'll get over it eventually I suppose.
 
...It would not surprise me, however, if the individual never actually existed as that has happened countless times in Hebraic history, and receiving non-Hebrew cultures wouldn't really be capable of discerning the differences of one messianic tale from another - they would all seem to be easily about the same Hebrew guy.

The variant differences between different messianic sects within Judah requires understanding very pedantic levels of Hebrew law and value; something most cultures thought were very strange and backwoods to them.

Culturally speaking, there is enough social psychology to permit "Jesus" being a composite concept.

It's a bit hard to prove, either way, however - like so many things when dealing with the Hebrew history.

I'd be interested in reading more about your idea "there is enough social psychology to permit "Jesus" being a composite concept", though it's prolly outside of the thread's topic.


... I like reading these things, crazy I know, but it is a weird feeling to read this stuff knowing that it was buried for 2000 years and the guy whose words I'm reading now, whose handwriting I can see in those photos, possibly even spots of whose sweat dripped onto that parchment, would never believe that someone like me would ever see those words. I would be an abomination to that guy, we all would.

It's a bizarre combination of connection with these people and total alienation from their beliefs. Weird.

It's not wierd when there's someone posting who can show you what's viable speculation and what's simply isn't supported by the evidence.

Kudos, JaysonR.
I had no idea so much was documented and known about the situation in Jerusalem in the 1st 2nd century BCE.
The figure that intrigues most in all this is that of Onias IV.
 
I'd be interested in reading more about your idea "there is enough social psychology to permit "Jesus" being a composite concept", though it's prolly outside of the thread's topic.
...

I'm not sure it would be.

Part of Eisenman's hypothesis is that some stories about James came to be associated with Jesus. One is being taken to the pinnacle of the Temple and being tempted...

I'm happy to see wherever the discussion takes us.

I don't agree that Eisenman isn't supported by evidence. I just haven't managed to convince Jayson of his interpretation of it.

I'm still just putting forward Eisenman's ideas, I know most Academics disagree, but I like them. I'm not trying to force them on anyone, like some people like to do with these fringe ideas.

I just like talking about them. It beats the **** out of Bigfoot and UFO's for me. YMMV.

Cheers.
 
I tried UFO discussions in a dark moment.
Never again.

I can't imagine why anyone would believe in Bigfoots (Bigfeet?) or Sasquatch.
 
...
Onias IV built his temple in Egypt and Onias IV was of the proper Zadokite line.

I'm not sold on it as solid fact, but that is pretty compelling when countered against Alcimus the Hellenistic Jew-slayer false High Priest; especially when Onias lost his rightful seat to Alcimus and was ran out of Judah.

This really could be the starting point; the "original cast".

I'm not denying that as the starting point. Actually seeing you put it like that, has cleared up some of the earlier parts of Eisenman's book for me. Now I'm more familiar with the material, I think that is in agreement with Eisenman, as far as it goes.

I believe what Eisenman is saying, is that the scrolls we have represent the writings of the faction of these, "power-jockeying Lieutenants" of the last of the Zadokites (ie: James The Just), which was ascendant at the time the caves were sealed.*

I think the dating of the linen can be explained by the fact that it was old linen when it was put in the ground. These linen robes were handed down for generations. They weren't cheap to make.

The lack of coinage from the Herodian period can be explained by the ideological content of the scrolls. It was an economy of shared property. Money was evil.

I wouldn't be surprised if the coins were dropped by Romans when they burned the place.

Does any of that sound plausible Jayson?

I have to hone these arguments somehow. If you help me hone them enough, maybe they'll grind down to nothing at all...

ETA: "The Last Of The Zadokites" as a title for "James The Just" is copyright to me. If someone wants it, I'll sell it.

https://www.google.com.au/#q="The+Last+Of+The+Zadokites"

ETA: *I think the only survivors of this cult were people who were outside of Judea at the time of the war, like Peter in Rome maybe. Although I guess the Qumran group would think of him as a defector, having gone off with the "Big Fat Liar**", Paul.

** Not my title, no copyright infringement intended.
 
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