Paul Bethke vs the 613 Mitzvot

[Paul Bethke]

No, she doesn't. And the rest of your post is just the same pat sermon claiming "It's all about the ten commandments," so I'll ignore it. It's been answered sufficiently. The point you're missing is that you seem to have this third-grade formulation of what the Hebrew law is. You claim to obey all of it, but you don't really know what it is, how it was traditionally obeyed, how it was brought about and shaped by history, and all the other things that would ordinarily have to go into a claim of perfect obedience to it. You think you do, but you don't.

SEE you are wrong again—it is all about the Ten Commands that the Creator gave to the Hebrews eight weeks after they came out of Egypt, this was necessary to establish a moral order among the newly liberated Hebrews who had been living under the influence of the Egyptians whose culture was contrary to what Yahweh desired of people.

( Lev_18:3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. )

So once this moral obligation was set in such a way as it was, and was inscribed on the two stone tablets preventing any alteration to them, the additional laws were given in order for the people to function as they progress to the land of Canaan.

They were national laws, incorporating every situation they would encounter as a nation. Exodus18:20 Teach them the decrees and laws, and show them the way to live and the duties they are to perform.
Lev_20:23 You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them.

There were laws given that would enable the Creator to reveal his presence with them, by making them holy—separate from the way other people worshiped their deities..
Num_35:34 Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.'"

So in order for the holy presence of the Creator to be among the Hebrews he gave the laws that will accommodate his presence.

Moreover, you give the same excuses that all cafeteria Christians give for why certain of the mitzvot shouldn't be in force, and they don't have much to do with the missing temple. Your version of the elder law is, with few exceptions, the fanciful one Christians are taught early in Sunday school. You don't have some great new insight on it. You just offer up the same caricature of it that practically every Christian sect does, and then try to claim you're so much better obedient than all those other Christians. You don't really know what the mitzvot are, which I suppose is why you won't talk about them individually as you said we had to do in order to fully understand your teachings. Turns out, all you've done is reattach a pidgin version of kosher diet to it. That doth not a prophet make.

Wrong again, once a person deviates from the sanctified marriage that the Creator demands, then all other kind of excuses will be presented.

I have emphasised the state of holy matrimony as vital and essential to the faith. The laws of the Creator are closely related to maintain a sanctified marriage, and to ensure that all people are treated justly.

Israel as I have stated was a newly formed nation, so it was essential to give them laws that would guide them. So today many of these laws are incorporated in the constitutions---except the laws how to approach a holy Creator.


Now Jesus came onto the scene to direct us how to worship this holy Creator.

Firstly he directed people that the law and the principal of the law would be maintained—focusing on the object that the principal of the laws was to love ones neighbour and not do to a person that one would not like done to yourself. In doing this one would show reverence for the Creator.

Exo_20:16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbour.

Exo_20:17 "You shall not covet your neighbour’s house. You shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour."

Lev_6:2 "If anyone sins and is unfaithful to the LORD by deceiving his neighbour about something entrusted to him or left in his care or stolen, or if he cheats him,

Lev_19:16 "'Do not go about spreading slander among your people. "'Do not do anything that endangers your neighbour’s life. I am the LORD.

So you SEE how many of the laws pertain to one’s neighbor
So Jesus clarifies this in this way-- Matthew 19:18 "Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, "'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony,
Mat 19:19 honour your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbour as yourself.'"

Romans_13:9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbour as yourself."

So you SEE how wrong you are, not understanding the simple principal of the Torah, which is to teach people how to love.

 

[halleyscomet]

Comet why, your persistence in certain questions relevant to me—so why must I answer them from a personal point of view.

Did you not read the thread title?

Do you not remember how the Mitzvot got brought up until the first place?

There are only two explanations for your post.

1. Deliberate and dishonest gaslighting.

2. Dementia or another neurological condition that causes loss of memory.

 

[JayUtah]

SEE you are wrong again—it is all about the Ten Commands...

You're doing it again, Bethke.

I have emphasised the state of holy matrimony as vital and essential to the faith.

No, you're just obsessed with sex.

So you SEE how wrong you are, not understanding the simple principal of the Torah, which is to teach people how to love.

No, I don't see how I'm wrong. I see how I have contradicted your wacky claims. But then again that's what I set out to do. I'll repeat my argument, and maybe tomorrow you'll be able to have a more pertinent response.

You can't demonstrate the slightest correct understanding of the mitzvot. They have a particular historic and doctrinal basis to those who formulated them and live by them. What you're giving us is the standard third-grade Sunday school fundamentalist Christian interpretation, which bears as much resemblance to the original as a crayon drawing on a MacDonalds napkin does to the Mona Lisa. I therefore conclude that you are no more understanding and obedient of the mitzvot than any other cafeteria Christian.

 

[JayUtah]

Comet why, your persistence in certain questions relevant to me—so why must I answer them from a personal point of view.

Because that's why the thread was created. You claimed perfect obedience to the mitzvot and went on to suggest examining each of them in turn to understand the nature of the obligation. That's what we're doing. Well, that's what some of us are doing. You're stonewalling.

 

[halleyscomet]

Because that's why the thread was created. You claimed perfect obedience to the mitzvot and went on to suggest examining each of them in turn to understand the nature of the obligation. That's what we're doing. Well, that's what some of us are doing. You're stonewalling.

Speaking of which, I think we can rattle off a few more now:

Ex. 20:21 — Not to make human forms even for decorative purposes — Yemenite->Ex. 20:20

Clearly, Paul Bethke follows this one. He's never given any indication of having any artistic endeavors.

Ex. 20:24 — Not to build the altar with stones hewn by metal — Yemenite->Ex. 20:23

Again, this is another one he follows more by default than anything else. He can't be bothered to do the remedial work needed to gain followers. Building an altar? It's an absurd notion. Besides, his theology tends to lean away from the need for things like altars anyway.

Ex. 20:27 — Not to climb steps to the altar — Yemenite->Ex. 20:26

You'd need an altar to climb the steps.

Ex. 21:8 — Redeem Jewish maidservants
Ex. 21:8 — Betroth the Jewish maidservant

Given the antisemetism he's expressed here, the idea of him even allowing an unsupervised Jew to do servant work in his home is about as comical as the idea of him carving a statue.

Ex. 21:8 — The master must not sell his maidservant

This is a tough one. Paul Bethke is a BIG fan of Apartheid. Can approval of overt slavery be that far behind?

Paul Bethke,

What are your general attitudes on slavery? It's endorsed in both the Old and New Testaments. The New Testament even gives rules for how a Christian slave should conduct himself towards his master.

 

[halleyscomet]

Ex. 21:15 — Not to strike your father and mother
Ex. 21:17 — Not to curse your father and mother

This should be a rubber-stamp answer from Paul. He keeps harping on the Ten Commandments, and they tell you to honor your father and mother. Given his obsession with obedience, actually raising a hand to one of his parents is probably (hopefully) something he would never do.

What do you say Paul Bethke? Do you ever strike your parents?

 

[Craig B]

The Torah will always be the yardstick for all nations to be compared by.

The Chinese still eat dogs—Black Africans still eat monkeys and drink blood—

So you SEE the Torah will always be a means of identifying sin.

I eat pigs, and consume blood in black pudding, Torah or no Torah. In France I have eaten horses. Your yardstick is not only the Torah, but your aversion to Chinese and Black African people.

 

[halleyscomet]

This post is from the "Signs of the End Times" thread that this one spun off from.

As is his claim to be the final prophet. Effectively, PB is claiming to be Big Mo's successor.



As I consider it, this is an interesting line of enquiry. Unfortunately, I doubt PB will engage with it.



Nevertheless, when one thinks about it, PB claims that apocalyptic death will be handed about to all and sundry. That's what Islamic extremists do.



PB claims to facilitate the handing out of divine violent justice. That's what Islamic extremists do.



The more one compares the two positions, the more PB's claims align with the Jihadi claims.



That is a little disturbing.

The more I think about it the more Paul Bethke's claimed views are more in line with extremist versions of Islam than Christianity.

Here is where I need more information. Is there an Islamic equivalent to the 613 Mitzvot? I'm under the impression that Islam lacks a portion of the large body of laws that Judaism carries. If so, then what we've been referring to as Paul Bethke's second to third grade understanding of the Bible could in fact be a description of Islamic law filtered clumsily through discussion of Judaism. If his beliefs are fundamentally Islamic than ignorance of the content of Jewish scripture is perfectly understandable.

Food for thought.
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1068569

 

[Paul Bethke]

I eat pigs, and consume blood in black pudding, Torah or no Torah. In France I have eaten horses. Your yardstick is not only the Torah, but your aversion to Chinese and Black African people.

You SEE people are categorised by what is written in the Torah, which enables us to understand what the Creator approves of and what the Creator detests.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE1lMiJwKvE

You SEE you can disregard the injunctions in the Torah, but then you exclude yourself from entering into the Covenant.

 

[Border Reiver]

You SEE you can disregard the injunctions in the Torah, but then you exclude yourself from entering into the Covenant.

Then surely you can see that your adherence to only some of the mitzvot exclude YOU from the Covenant as well.

 

[halleyscomet]

You SEE people are categorised by what is written in the Torah, which enables us to understand what the Creator approves of and what the Creator detests.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE1lMiJwKvE



You SEE you can disregard the injunctions in the Torah, but then you exclude yourself from entering into the Covenant.

Thank you for reinforcing the points made earlier. You're clearly not expressing a Biblical viewpoint, but one derived from the Koran. That explains your myopic focus on the Ten Commandments and a Kosher, or in this case Halal, diet, to the complete exclusion of nearly 600 other laws. Discussing those laws could be futile for a Muslim because they don't apply to Islam. The rise of extremism within Islam explains the form of your ideology. You, like DAESH and other violent extremists, are well outside the mainstream.

 

[Peregrinus]

[PB], like DAESH and other violent extremists, are well outside the mainstream.

They're not even in the shallows.

 

[JayUtah]

You, like DAESH and other violent extremists, are well outside the mainstream.

And similarly, despises the mainstream saying they are soft and uncommitted. "Christian jihadist" seems appropriate here.

 

[halleyscomet]

And similarly, despises the mainstream saying they are soft and uncommitted. "Christian jihadist" seems appropriate here.

Yet again, I'm reminded of just how good it is he has no followers. The last thing South Africa needs these days is a white supremacist, vaguely pseudo-Christian DAESH variant running around killing anyone they deem unvirtuous by their standards.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Yet again, I'm reminded of just how good it is he has no followers. The last thing South Africa needs these days is a white supremacist, vaguely pseudo-Christian DAESH variant running around killing anyone they deem unvirtuous by their standards.

Are you not being silly again.

 

[Paul Bethke]

And similarly, despises the mainstream saying they are soft and uncommitted. "Christian jihadist" seems appropriate here.

Are you not also being silly?

 

[Border Reiver]

Are you not being silly again.

No, this time we're being perfectly serious.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Thank you for reinforcing the points made earlier. You're clearly not expressing a Biblical viewpoint, but one derived from the Koran. That explains your myopic focus on the Ten Commandments and a Kosher, or in this case Halal, diet, to the complete exclusion of nearly 600 other laws. Discussing those laws could be futile for a Muslim because they don't apply to Islam. The rise of extremism within Islam explains the form of your ideology. You, like DAESH and other violent extremists, are well outside the mainstream.

You are wrong the Torah came long before the Koran—I refer to the Decalogue in Exodus—but you knew that.

 

[JayUtah]

Are you not also being silly?

No. I'm putting that out there as a fully defensible characterization of your approach. What you are doing to Christianity appears little different from what jihadists are doing to Islam. The reasons for that characterization have been presented. Would you care to address them? Or are you just going to hurl invective?

 

[Border Reiver]

You are wrong the Torah came long before the Koran—I refer to the Decalogue in Exodus—but you knew that.

And you are missing the very clearly made point that the Koran includes the 10 Commandments/Decalogue/whatever name you use to try to look more biblically literate then you are/etc and that your point of view and outlook on religion aligns more closely with the more jihadic strains of Islam then it does with either Judaism (since you clearly don't follow the mitzvot) or Christianity.