Patriotism

[six7s]

RandFan,

You persist in defining patriotism in a way that suits you and your long-held beliefs, whilst seemingly ignoring that you are on an international forum where some (or at least one) of us regard patriotism in precisely the same light as sexism, ageism, racism, etc

Please, stop being so didactic and acknowledge that Uncle Sam-style patriotism is one of the least popular images of your homeland

 

[RandFan]

It is not beside the point that patriotism is not needed at all to resist things like Hitler´s jackbooted goons invading the place you live in.

The point you are missing is that patriotism doesn't obviate resistance and it CAN be a point for resistance.

He would also take away at least your liberty, considering your unflattering remarks about him, possibly your property and, even more important, your life. I´m at a loss as to why this is not enough to oppose him.

BECAUSE HE WOULD take away my liberty.

Yeah, I wonder. When will you oh-so-great patriots ever take a break from blindly rallying to the one who waves the flag?

We did exactly that. Bush's poll numbers went into the toilet. Do you really not know this.

Funny... his being tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail fails to have made world-wide news.

There are none so blind as they who will not see.

• America voted for Obama who was against torture.
• America voted for Obama who was agaisnt the war in Iraq.
• America voted for Obama who promised to respect and honor the constitution and the rule of law AND STOP TORTURE.

I seem to recall that the oh-so-great American patriots stood up to him so effectively that he was even re-elected, and that they kept standing up him so overwhelmingly that the guy who was to succeed him was defeated only very narrowly.

We made a mistake. We are human. However patriotism won out.

But it is used for that, very effectively. Come back claiming you have a point to the contrary when you can show patriots actually standing up in some way other than claiming to have done it, years later.

I can't make you see what you refuse to see. Patriotism is like anyother emotion it can be abused and misused. You refuse to see the good even when it is right in front of your eyes. There's not much more I can do.

 

[Thunder]

IMHO, being a patriotic American means standing up for our core values; which are freedom, democracy, liberty, and tolerance.

There will always be those pigs who hide their hatred, bigotry, xenophobia, and extremism, behind a mask of patriotism. But they always lose in the end.

 

[RandFan]

You persist in defining patriotism in a way that suits you and your long-held beliefs...

Words are simply the means to convey ideas. I'm not using the word differently than it is stated in the dictonary.

...whilst seemingly ignoring that you are on an international forum where some (or at least one) of us regard patriotism in precisely the same light as sexism, ageism, racism, etc

I've made myself clear. If there is confusion as to my intent then I'm not the one at fault here. If others refuse to acknowledge that there exists an emotion called patriotism that is healthy and good and a part of America's heritage then that is their fault. If others want to conflate the definition Americans use with something else that is there problem. I'm simply trying to explain what I mean. If you find the word objectionable then that's fine. If you find my definition of the word objectionable then that is an entirely different subject.

Please, stop being so didactic...

Please look in the mirror my friend.

...and acknowledge that Uncle Sam-style patriotism is one of the least popular images of your homeland

This would require a capitulation to propaganda and missinformation.

I CAN'T do that. I can only try and inform and educate and be honest with myself. Please don't ask me to act contrary to that? If there is confusion and misunderstanding then it is incumbant on EVERYONE to try and better understand. Browbeating and bullying is hardly an effective tactic.

http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn...finger_poster-p228192446718115559t5wm_400.jpg

?

 

[RandFan]

IMHO, being a patriotic American means standing up for our core values; which are freedom, democracy, liberty, and tolerance.

That's how I define it also.

There will always be those pigs who hide their hatred, bigotry, xenophobia, and extremism, behind a mask of patriotism. But they always lose in the end.

Agreed. In the end those who exploited 9/11 and apealed to our fears and hid behind that mask were exposed.

Thank you.

 

[six7s]

If there is confusion as to my intent then I'm not the one at fault here. If others refuse to acknowledge that there exists an emotion called patriotism that is healthy and good and a part of America's heritage then that is their fault. If others want to conflate the definition Americans use with something else that is there problem. I'm simply trying to explain what I mean. If you find the word objectionable then that's fine. If you find my definition of the word objectionable then that is an entirely different subject.

I am sincerely disappointed that you Rand Fan, an otherwise articulate and reasoned man, steadfastly fail to see how the highlighted bit is at odds with everything else

In communication, responsibility for comprehension rests with the sender (not the recipient) of a message

You have been told, in no uncertain terms, that your contorted abuse of language is hindering this discussion

Think, Randfan... who developed PATRIOT missiles, and why? Ask around and find out how many people think (yes, think) that the way your kids pledge allegiance to your flag is not only absurd but also scary

Patriotism is NOT a nice, warm emotional term

Its cold, vile and repugnant

I suggest that you think about what it is you are really proud of and find a word to describe it

 

[RandFan]

I am sincerely disappointed that you Rand Fan, an otherwise articulate and reasoned man, steadfastly fail to see how the highlighted bit is at odds with everything else

Can you explain it to me?

In communication, responsibility for comprehension rests with the sender (not the recipient) of a message

• I've been very careful to explain what it is I mean by patriotism.
• I've provided the dictionary definition and wiki page to support my position.

You have been told, in no uncertain terms, that your contorted abuse of language is hindering this discussion

? Why the browbeating? I'm sincere here and I resent your attempts to bully me into abandoning a position that I sincerely and honestly hold. I've not contorted any language. I've been open and frank as to my intent and my definitions.

I honestly don't understand why you are doing this. You don't seem to be making any attempt whatsoever to understand my POV.

Think, Randfan... who developed PATRIOT missiles, and why? Ask around and find out how many people think (yes, think) that the way your kids pledge allegiance to your flag is not only absurd but also scary

I'm at a complete loss as to this. Are you saying that there is only one possible conclusion that can be drawn from "patriot missiles"?

Patriotism is NOT a nice, warm emotional term

Perhaps in your culture and language. Not mine.

Its cold, vile and repugnant

Again, this is not my POV. I believe that like the fact that some love for a spouse is harmful and unhealthy some forms of patriotism are harmful and unhealthy.

I suggest that you think about what it is you are really proud of and find a word to describe it

I suggest you take your ego down a notch or two and try to understand my POV.

Six,

Reasonable people can disagree about any number of things. JREF exists not to browbeat individuals into thinking monolithically but to discuss ideas and concepts in an attempt to broaden horizons and perceptions.

If you refuse to accept that I could be sincere and reasonable then I see no reason to continue the discussion. You are being very rude and presumptuous.

I ask you to calm down and think clearly. You appear to be engaging in the very thing you are railing against and that is to let your emotions rule your thinking.

I hope you will do so. I'm not here to make enemies. However I won't be browbeaten into taking a dishonest position to please others. I would rather leave the forum all together.

I hope you will reconsider your views and we can remain friends.

Sincerely,

RandFan

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

IMHO, being a patriotic American means standing up for our core values; which are freedom

See: Slavery.

democracy

See: Electoral College, The Senate, The Supreme Court

liberty

See: Slavery, disenfranchisement of women, blacks, gays, etc.

tolerance

Pfff.

Hm, none of these things seem particularly or singularly American. Oh, but I'm sure those are just lapses from our True Values (TM).

 

[RandFan]

See: Slavery.

See Peter Singers expanding circle. Anthropologically there is a reasonable explanation. You are judging people in the past based on modern morality and sensibility. It's unfortunate but at that time minorities and women were not seen as equal to white males. That doesn't change the core values that led to the emancipation of slaves and the granting of civil rights to women and minorities.

Please note that the American Constitution was well suited for Peter Singer's expanding circle and it is sufficient today to protect and provide redress for all.

See: Electoral College, The Senate, The Supreme Court

See checks and balances and balance of power IOW a more inteligent democracy.

See: Slavery, disenfranchisement of women, blacks, gays, etc.

Again, see Singer's expanding circle.

Hm, none of these things seem particularly or singularly American.

Strawman. He never said they were.

 

[six7s]

I hope you will reconsider your views and we can remain friends.

I have reconsidered them, many times

I too hope we can remain friends; I like the way you think RandFan... you have come a long way

Can you explain it to me?

As a friend, I say 'I don't think so, not at the moment... maybe later... who knows?'

In the meantime, I'll look forward to seeing you in other threads

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Without love for one's spouse there would be no divorce.

OK, problems:

1) People get married for reasons besides love, including just plain "like," so the analogy fails.

2) You didn't have to be a patriot to fight against Nazism. You might just be interested in a world where you can choose what to read, or not to live in fear being gay or Jewish.

 

[Jaxe]

OK, problems:

1) People get married for reasons besides love, including just plain "like," so the analogy fails.

2) You didn't have to be a patriot to fight against Nazism. You might just be interested in a world where you can choose what to read, or not to live in fear being gay or Jewish.

I believe that's the point he's making, you don't need to be a patriot to fight against Nazism, nor do you have to be a patriot to be a Nazi. You don't need to be a nazi to take advantage of other peoples patriotic feelings, but you can be one.

You should no more blame Nazi germany on patriotism than you should on people's kneejerk reaction when it comes to children ("wont somebody please think of the children!").

 

[h.g.Whiz]

It just occured to me that this thread should have been in the philosophy sub-forum .

 

[six7s]

Or Humor

 

[applecorped]

or AAH