I'm not sure myself what to think about Pat and cancer...
What I do find interesting is that most people here hate the message of hate he preached/preaches. He wished death on others, he blamed people for their apparent damnation, whatever. Obviously not a very loving, Christian way to look at the world.
Now whatever you think about Christianity, there are some basic ideals that it espouses, one of which is, basically, to love others. Another rather topical ideal is to not judge others and to let God do the judging. These, I think, are pretty decent ideals for humans to live by, whether one is a Christian or not.
To wish Pat Robertson pain and suffering goes against these ideals we wish he lived by, and the ideals that are reasonable for all of us to live by.
I, for one, as a Christian, pray that this can be a transforming and meaningful experience for Pat Robertson. We all have the ability to f*ck up and to get things right, and the rules aren't any different for him, despite just how badly he's f*cked up.
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What I do find interesting is that most people here hate the message of hate he preached/preaches. He wished death on others, he blamed people for their apparent damnation, whatever. Obviously not a very loving, Christian way to look at the world.
Now whatever you think about Christianity, there are some basic ideals that it espouses, one of which is, basically, to love others. Another rather topical ideal is to not judge others and to let God do the judging. These, I think, are pretty decent ideals for humans to live by, whether one is a Christian or not.
To wish Pat Robertson pain and suffering goes against these ideals we wish he lived by, and the ideals that are reasonable for all of us to live by.
I, for one, as a Christian, pray that this can be a transforming and meaningful experience for Pat Robertson. We all have the ability to f*ck up and to get things right, and the rules aren't any different for him, despite just how badly he's f*cked up.
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Fade said:
Yet the basic underlying emotion is the same is it not?
And if that emotion is ok to have in certain situations but not in others - then it becomes relative, open to interpretation.
So if it's relative then who are we to say that Robertson is less moral than FFed?
But you make an interesting point - thank you
As always you make your point lucidly Sou
Tricky
Briefly immortal
He hid in a number of places all over Europe, including Sweden. The US eventually gave up chasing him and he was only caught through the diligent efforts of the victim's family who refused to give up. Was theirs a quest for justice or vengence? Can you tell the difference?Yahzi said:
But this ties in again to the purpose of this thread. The French would only agree to extradite Einhorn if the US agreed not to seek the death penalty, which they regard as barbaric. They apparently have no problem with barbaric murderers living freely within their borders. Were the French wrong to insist on this condition, or were they humane?
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Finella...I have to disagree with you that Christianity is about loving others. It is not. It is about bringing the message of Christ to those that have not heard it that they may be saved. Those that do not choose Christ are doomed. The "Christians" are in an exclusive club. They do not love those that choose differently. They may pity them but if they are not saved the Christians give it little other thought. Hell fire an brimstone for eternity. Too bad.
This is the view of most organized churches. Please do not tell me that the "real" Christian doesn't think this way. It is a cop out. Talk to any Christian long enough and you get the same answer...they are going to heaven and you are going to hell. End of story.
This is the view of most organized churches. Please do not tell me that the "real" Christian doesn't think this way. It is a cop out. Talk to any Christian long enough and you get the same answer...they are going to heaven and you are going to hell. End of story.
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Tricky said:
Sounds to me, Tricky, as though it was more about justice, than anything else. Einhorn was able to run around loose and escape justice, living well in Europe.
France might have helped its cause far better if they'd even bothered to lock Einhorn up, instead of allowing him to run around loose. The man had already been convicted in absentia for murder, for God's sake.
As far as Robertson goes, I find it funny that Doctors aren't good enough for anyone else, but they're the first ones Pat turned to when things got tough.
I can't help but be reminded of ol' Brother Oral, and the time he said that if he didn't get a million bucks, God would "call him home."
My Grandmother had sent ol' Brother Oral a one-time "donation" of $5.00. Not long after that, (a few months), she started getting dunning letters, telling her that if she didn't cough up another $5.00 a month, it would "negatively impact" her credit rating. Not long after that, ol' Brother Oral made his declaration.
I sent him a note saying, "SEE YA!"
Roadtoad
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jimmygun said:
Sorry, Jimmy.
As a Christian, I kind of had to check my expectations at the door. I don't know if you're going to heaven or hell. The last time I checked, God hadn't died, and I hadn't been promoted to the job.
jimmygun said:
It certainly isn't the view of me or my church. Then again, the Episcopal church hasn't been known to have hard doctrine on much of anything.
I certainly most disagree with your statement that Christians "do not love those that choose differently." I do. Maybe I'm naive, but this is what Jesus himself did: he died for every person because he loves every person. Not for the "exclusive" members as some denominations of Christianity preach, but for the whole world. Many theologians don't think of hell as a place that God damns people to, but rather that it is a chosen destination for those who refuse the love of God.
Thus, yes, love is at the heart of Christianity. And as a Christian who believes that, I disprove your statement that "any" Christian divides up the world's population into future inhabitants of heaven and hell. That's not something I can wrap my mind around metaphysically -- it's a far larger question that, I believe, has absolutely nothing to do with me anyway.
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Au contrair mon frair...JC did not die for everyone. He died for only those that would except him. The rest can go to hell. Boil it down and you will find the underlying impatice is to be better than or better off than those that disagree with you.
If you really loved someone would you tell them tales of horror and everlasting agony and blame them for their own fate? No, if you really loved someone you would try to comfort them and make them at ease.
That is something that is beyond the Christian mentality in my opinion. Sort of a tough love thing, but the end result is that you go to heaven and eternal bliss while the other guy goes to the lake of fire. You wash your hands of the sinner and accept the ruling of an unjust, unrelenting, unfeeling, sadistic god. That is not love.
If you really loved someone would you tell them tales of horror and everlasting agony and blame them for their own fate? No, if you really loved someone you would try to comfort them and make them at ease.
That is something that is beyond the Christian mentality in my opinion. Sort of a tough love thing, but the end result is that you go to heaven and eternal bliss while the other guy goes to the lake of fire. You wash your hands of the sinner and accept the ruling of an unjust, unrelenting, unfeeling, sadistic god. That is not love.
That is not Christianity. Sorry, but whoever represented it to you as the evil thing you are describing misrepresented it.
It seems you had a limited experience with Christianity, a really fundamentalist one, which is not necessarily what every Christian believes.
In regards to this thread, though, it doesn't behoove us as human beings (which we all are) to wish suffering on one who wished it on others. We can be bigger than that.
It seems you had a limited experience with Christianity, a really fundamentalist one, which is not necessarily what every Christian believes.
In regards to this thread, though, it doesn't behoove us as human beings (which we all are) to wish suffering on one who wished it on others. We can be bigger than that.
Roadtoad
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jimmygun said:
But I think you've hit the nail on the head, Jimmy. You're right, that ain't love at all. I have never been able to simply wash my hands of people, especially friends. (Family... that's another matter. I'll tell you later...)
Just what sort of Christians are you running into up there? Sounds like the crowd I used to hang with, until I kept getting hit time and again with hard realities. (Family and friends dying of AIDS, who lived better lives than we had and had given more than I ever imagined; God fearing people who had done nothing more than filled the hearts of those in their presence with nothing but unvarnished malice... What sort of God allows this unholy swap?)
Here's an even bigger question for you: Pat Robertson would tell you that someone like Stephen Hawking is destined for Hell because he denies Christ. Yet, in his search for a unifying principle (or perhaps that ought to be "unifying principles"), I see an honest search for God, or at least God as best Hawking can understand. (And given Hawking's displayed compassion, not to mention what else we've seen elsewhere, he can understand a great deal.)
I have a hard time justifying the notion that Dr. Hawking would spend an eternity in damnation. I don't buy it. How would you justify that? I can't.
Sorry, I guess I'm not much of a Christian. I have a broader idea of what God would accept than most people. But I've also said it before: No one has ever put me in charge.
Believe me, Robertson would have something to worry about then.
Finella said:
But what was described *IS* Christianity. It's hard to preface every useful discussion with the standard caveats of the fact that we are individuals and there really is no such thing as an "-ic", "-ian", "-ist", "-ity, " or "-ism".
Given that caveat, I have met many people in my life who think just like Pat Robertson (or at least show me that on the outside that they do).
I have many examples, but this one seems to come to mind.
I worked at a place once where I used to always to say hi to the janitor and thank him when he came around to clean out the trash in my office every single day. The day before I was leaving that job, the guy tried to sit down with me for like 20min to convince me to become a chirstian (I have brown skin, so most people think that there are no Christians from India
). If I didn't get saved I'd be going to hell. I just smiled politely and thanked him for letting me know, poor guy was brainwashed....I was still a little insulted though. I mean the guy does not know what my life is like or what I have been through that day...it's terribly insensitive/rude and somehow selfish to feel that you can walk up to somone you don't know and allow yourself to purge your mouth of stupidity.I have seen innumerably stupid, fraudlent child-like fibbing and zealousy in the media and from people who call themselves Christian....(the Southren Baptists and Pentacostals come to mind more quickly than anyone else).
Like it or not, in any sense of the word; the picture painted by Jimmy is a very big and relvant part of Christianity here in America. Of course, I know that there are people far more wonderful than myself who profess the faith; but I you can't honestly say that Jimmy is misrepresenting Christianity; it's a very real part of what it is, particularly to non Christians.
DialecticMaterialist
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Of course it is beyond absolutists to make distinctions. If you are callous/humored about Robertson dying; then you are just as bad as he is for wanting people to be tortured forever. You are either one way or another....period. No exceptions. No inbetween.
If only reality was that simple.....
If only reality was that simple.....
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Dialectic...where the hell do you get off jumping from not caring if Pat Robertson dies to wishing he is tortured for ever. That is a pant load. I do not believe in an afterlife so if he dies he is just gone and the evil he does goes with him (except that his minions will continue it).
I find it ironic that he has cancer and cannot heal himself. I find it humerous that he claims to be able to heal those that send him money but can't do a thing for himself. I don't wish that he suffer, I know he won't unless it is in his own mind, knowing what a hypocrite he is and fearing his own god's rath. If that is his suffering then good on him.
Finella...If you are a Christian it means you believe what Christ said. He said unless you accept him then you go to hell. He didn't say maybe, he didn't say his mom would get you in. He made it perfectly clear that if you do not accept him you do not go to heaven. If you dispute his teaching then you are by definition not a Christian.
That you might not get in the face of someone about your religion and people like Pat do is just a matter of degree. In the end it all boils down to who is going to heaven and who is going to hell.
You can claim love for your fellow man, nurse him to health or comfort him in pain. You can give all of your money and time helping the homeless and the unfortunate. You can do all these things but at the last minute you can also step back, wash your hands of that person and consign them to everlasting torture.
Some ask what kind of Christians I have come into contact with? Every kind from born again lunatics to sincere, devout believers. In every case it is the same. When the rubber hits the road they are all capable of cutting the unbeliever loose, including their own family.
My wife who is a devout Catholic is the same. When she dies she is convinced she will go to heaven and when my son and I die we will not. When I asked how she can reconcile having her loved ones in hell while she basks in heaven her reply was that God will erase all memory of us. You draw your own conclusions from this type of thinking.
I find it ironic that he has cancer and cannot heal himself. I find it humerous that he claims to be able to heal those that send him money but can't do a thing for himself. I don't wish that he suffer, I know he won't unless it is in his own mind, knowing what a hypocrite he is and fearing his own god's rath. If that is his suffering then good on him.
Finella...If you are a Christian it means you believe what Christ said. He said unless you accept him then you go to hell. He didn't say maybe, he didn't say his mom would get you in. He made it perfectly clear that if you do not accept him you do not go to heaven. If you dispute his teaching then you are by definition not a Christian.
That you might not get in the face of someone about your religion and people like Pat do is just a matter of degree. In the end it all boils down to who is going to heaven and who is going to hell.
You can claim love for your fellow man, nurse him to health or comfort him in pain. You can give all of your money and time helping the homeless and the unfortunate. You can do all these things but at the last minute you can also step back, wash your hands of that person and consign them to everlasting torture.
Some ask what kind of Christians I have come into contact with? Every kind from born again lunatics to sincere, devout believers. In every case it is the same. When the rubber hits the road they are all capable of cutting the unbeliever loose, including their own family.
My wife who is a devout Catholic is the same. When she dies she is convinced she will go to heaven and when my son and I die we will not. When I asked how she can reconcile having her loved ones in hell while she basks in heaven her reply was that God will erase all memory of us. You draw your own conclusions from this type of thinking.
DialecticMaterialist
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I never said anything about wanting Pat to be tortured forever, I was reffering to how Pat wants others to be tortured forever.
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Dialectic...Quote...
"If you are callous/humored about Robertson dying; then you are just as bad as he is for wanting people to be tortured forever."
You compare me on the same level as PR. You equate my not carring and amusement with his situation, with him wanting to see people tortured forever.
A=B=C?
I take what you say to its logical conclusion that you think I am equal in depravity to PR.
You are wrong.
"If you are callous/humored about Robertson dying; then you are just as bad as he is for wanting people to be tortured forever."
You compare me on the same level as PR. You equate my not carring and amusement with his situation, with him wanting to see people tortured forever.
A=B=C?
I take what you say to its logical conclusion that you think I am equal in depravity to PR.
You are wrong.
I, and several other theologians (not that I'm a theologian, of course!), don't think heaven and hell are that clear-cut. And I'm not entirely sure that Christ is "the way", as in, the only ticket to heaven. Many, many Christians struggle with this. I think there are many roads to immortality. Christians could very well have gotten it wrong, but it seems to work for me thus far, and based on my personal experience I have a gut feeling it's the right spritual path to follow -- for me.
I think you'll find many Christians are like myself, and some are more black and white and like your wife. I personally can't reconcile how a God can lovingly create us and then punish us with hell -- therefore I don't buy the instant damnation thing.
All I know for sure that I can try to do as a Christian is to live a Christ-like life as best I can. I am not concerned with anyone else's status with God, unless they ask for ways to get closer to God. And then I leave Jesus out of the picture unless they say they are Christian. My job is to "serve Christ in all persons, loving [my] neighbor as myself", "strive for justice and peace among all people" and "respect the dignity of every human being"; these are the things I vowed when I confirmed my baptism and I continue to renew these vows several times a year. Nowhere in these does it say to judge others, nor does it say that I am now a member of some exclusive immortal club and non-believers are doomed forever. Yes, it says I believe in the resurrection, but not that I know I will be resurrected. Because we don't really know.
So, basically, I ask you to not dump all Christians in the hypocritical, judgmental, Pat-Robertsonesque pile you conceive. Sure, some belong in that pile, and all I can say is that people created religion and people f*ck up.
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gmol said:
Oh, Gmol, I don't doubt that. My mother grew up in a nondenominational "fundie" church. The stories I know from her experience are bad enough. I have seen my Jewish friends in high school be told by their supposed friends that they were going to hell. Yeah, it is significant, and these people are the most visible Christians out there. Their motivation and actions are going to get the most attention out of any kind of Christianity. I'm not defending Bible-thumpers, and I disagree with their theology on a fundamental level (no pun intended).
I think Christianity gets a bad rap because of these people, and it does make it harder to come into a skeptics forum and confess my faith -- because I don't want to come across as one who will judge and condemn. Hardly. I barely understand what I believe anyway. I've got enough questions for myself, thank you.
I'm just trying to say that Christianity -- as I experience it -- is far deeper, far more loving, and far more accepting than these fundie dorks will ever be able to comprehend.
(oops... I guess I'm calling fundies "dorks"... my bad.
)---,---'--{@
Finella said:
When you start making the rules for your religion, this fact will be relevant. Until then, you are still terribly wrong.
Christianity is about who goes to heaven, and who goes to hell. That's it. Earn enough christian merit badges, and you get the fluffy cloud real estate. Fail to do so, and you get to take a lava bath. Any revisionist spin you put on it, based on your own personal experience, is invalid as you do not run the churches.
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Finella....perhaps I am not making myself clear. If you claim to be a Christian, you are by definition a follower of Christ. If you accept that he is the son of god, that he himself is god then you cannot pick and choose what part of what he says is okay for you and what is not. I realize that most of the bible is open to interpretation but it is very clear on one point....You must accept Jesus or you go to hell. I don't think it could be any clearer.
If you decide that isn't the case you have removed yourself from the teachings of JC and are no longer a Christian. You may be something else that believes in something else but not a Christian.
If you decide that isn't the case you have removed yourself from the teachings of JC and are no longer a Christian. You may be something else that believes in something else but not a Christian.