Pardoning Nixon, a retrospective

[theprestige]

So was just yet another "We have to burn the system down to prevent another Trump" thread?

I wish people would say that when they start threads.

It was a Trump thread. Seriously, what did you expect?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

So was just yet another "We have to burn the system down to prevent another Trump" thread?

I wish people would say that when they start threads.

I don't really follow. Nixon's pardon was largely uncharted waters. How is this thread advocating burning down the system?

 

[shemp]

I think Ford did the right thing largely because Nixon (eventually) did the right thing and resigned.

Nixon broke every law that ever existed in order to become President. But then he was ... pretty good. He didn't seek to divide the country in a culture war. He started to wind down our foreign wars. He went to China, put a man on the moon and founded the EPA. He didn't cripple LBJ's social reforms. He could have been a real conservative jerkward, but ended up being surprisingly progressive.

In contrast, **** Donald Trump. **** him right in the ear.

I would take Nixon over Cheeto any day. Hell, digging up his body and propping it up in the Oval Office would be an improvement.

 

[SpitfireIX]

I think Ford did the right thing largely because Nixon (eventually) did the right thing and resigned.

Nixon broke every law that ever existed in order to become President. But then he was ... pretty good. He didn't seek to divide the country in a culture war. He started to wind down our foreign wars. He went to China, put a man on the moon and founded the EPA. He didn't cripple LBJ's social reforms. He could have been a real conservative jerkward, but ended up being surprisingly progressive.

In contrast, **** Donald Trump. **** him right in the ear.

Nixon doesn't deserve any credit for the Apollo program; that all belongs to JFK and LBJ. In fact Nixon was responsible for the cancellation of Apollo 18, 19, and 20.

 

[Hellbound]

I would take Nixon over Cheeto any day. Hell, digging up his body and propping it up in the Oval Office would be an improvement.

http://futurama.wikia.com/wiki/Richard_M._Nixon's_head

 

[This is The End]

So was just yet another "We have to burn the system down to prevent another Trump" thread?

I wish people would say that when they start threads.

Could a President do anything that would be considered treasonous in your eyes?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Could a President do anything that would be considered treasonous in your eyes?

Who the hell do you think you're talking to?

I support impeaching Trump. I think he has committed treason.

I just don't think Trump has tainted everything about the Presidency so that everything has to be discussed in the context of "But Trump"

We don't have to get rid of the carpet in the Oval Office because Trump walked on it.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Who the hell do you think you're talking to?

I support impeaching Trump. I think he has committed treason.

I just don't think Trump has tainted everything about the Presidency so that everything has to be discussed in the context of "But Trump"

We don't have to get rid of the carpet in the Oval Office because Trump walked on it.

That's ok he will just pardon himself and all will be good.

 

[bobdroege7]

We don't have to get rid of the carpet in the Oval Office because Trump walked on it.

I would scan it with a UV lamp just to be sure.

We know male Russians have been in there, we don't know about female Russians visiting late at night, while the Orange Menace is all about tweeting.

 

[The Norseman]

I think Ford did the right thing largely because Nixon (eventually) did the right thing and resigned.

Nixon broke every law that ever existed in order to become President. But then he was ... pretty good.

He broke laws while being president too.

He should have been taken to task just like every other criminal who gets caught and the lame excuses bandied about like "let's all put this behind us" or "but then he did what I think is great so it's okay" need to be scorned as the pitiful attempts at evading responsibility they are.

 

[LSSBB]

He broke laws while being president too.

He should have been taken to task just like every other criminal who gets caught and the lame excuses bandied about like "let's all put this behind us" or "but then he did what I think is great so it's okay" need to be scorned as the pitiful attempts at evading responsibility they are.

Wow, you sound just like all the Trumpettes decrying illegal immigration. Interesting...

 

[The Norseman]

Wow, you sound just like all the Trumpettes decrying illegal immigration. Interesting...

Huh? Other than the ad hom is there an actual point?

Nixon should have been pardoned despite committing crimes, is what I'm arguing against so are you agreeing with that statement?

 

[jimbob]

Wow, you sound just like all the Trumpettes decrying illegal immigration. Interesting...

It's not really the same thing at all. Abuse of public office should be considered a very serious crime.

 

[dudalb]

Huh? Other than the ad hom is there an actual point?

Nixon should have been pardoned despite committing crimes, is what I'm arguing against so are you agreeing with that statement?

Uh, if someone has not commited crimes, then a pardon is pretty useless?
I think Nixon should have stood trial for his offenses. If found guilty he should have been sentenced.
But then I would have had no problem with a pardon. The problem I have is with Ford pardoning Nixon before he stood trial.

 

[No Other]

I think Ford did the right thing largely because Nixon (eventually) did the right thing and resigned.

Nixon broke every law that ever existed in order to become President. But then he was ... pretty good. He didn't seek to divide the country in a culture war.[\quote]You couldn't be further from the truth (except for breaking laws). Nixon used CoIntelpro as his little play thing (previous Presidents also used this secret approach but not as extensive as Nixon); Nixon had "Nixon's Enemy List"; The Plumbers were a spinoff of The Bay of Pigs in which he was in charge as VP; Dorothy Hunt died in a mysterious plane crash and then appointed Alexander Butterfield to head up the FAA... who was ultimately responsible for the (lack of) investigation; Nixon focused on suppressing campus demonstrations; Kent State shootings took place with no reprisals; White House recordings have Nixon describing Jews as "aggressive obnoxious and ******"; used the IRS to go after his enemies; Nixon wiretapped many people without warrants; conducted an illegal war in Cambodia; tore down the elected government of Chile... etc.

Ford also pardoned Nixon of future accusations; not just what we knew at that moment but also what could have been exposed in years to come. Ford was equally horrible as a President, VP and a Warren Commission Panelist who purposefully doctored evidence. The guy was a waste and will always be a waste...

 

[LSSBB]

Huh? Other than the ad hom is there an actual point?

Nixon should have been pardoned despite committing crimes, is what I'm arguing against so are you agreeing with that statement?

Then qualify what you mean by "broke crimes" when you make your statement. Loose discussion of "crimes" leads to confused rhetoric and misdemeanors like "illegal immigration" become equivalent to murder and treason - and vice versa. Not all crimes are major crimes.

 

[The Norseman]

It's not really the same thing at all. Abuse of public office should be considered a very serious crime.

Exactly. Yet when observed over time, it gives the impression to me of being the least prosecuted.

Uh, if someone has not commited crimes, then a pardon is pretty useless?

I agree but that's how it happened in real life and which, to me, just screams further abuse of the process.

I think Nixon should have stood trial for his offenses. If found guilty he should have been sentenced.
But then I would have had no problem with a pardon. The problem I have is with Ford pardoning Nixon before he stood trial.

I have a problem with it. I have a problem with any government official, such as "Joey Racist" Arpaio, being pardoned. To me, that's the abuse. I do not consider crimes that are perpetrated against society and the people specifically (such as treason but not limited to) to be less serious than other crimes; I consider those kinds of crimes to be far greater and frankly, crimes against the people of a state or the country should be the only death penalty crimes on the books (though I don't actually support the death penalty at all; I say this as if this society *must* have a death penalty in place for whatever reason, then it should be used only on those who have betrayed the public trust).

Nixon should have been strung up (so to speak) with his own "tough on crime" laws and attitude because I believe the harm — the real, actual harm that is done to the trust in government and the rule of law and the concept of fair and equitable justice — that harm is far, far worse than the supposed harm that people may have if a former president is sitting in jail where he would belong.

That's the real harm that is, and has been, simply and glibly dismissed or glossed over. It's a similar thing to the plummeting of trust and faith in the cops; when it's blatant to see the double standards going on, no one is gonna trust cops to do the right thing, or the criminal justice system to do the right thing; or on and on.

 

[The Norseman]

Then qualify what you mean by "broke crimes" when you make your statement. Loose discussion of "crimes" leads to confused rhetoric and misdemeanors like "illegal immigration" become equivalent to murder and treason - and vice versa. Not all crimes are major crimes.

Well, no, of course not.

So, okay, I can be a bit more specific: any felony is a good start, I think. Any misdemeanor that is directly related to violating the public trust or treason (unless those crimes are all felonies).

And I've said it before in this thread: my statements are presuming that the person got a fair trial and was convicted in the normal way which is presuming stuff like flying pigs, but still... I am not condoning simply throwing Trump in jail on a whim for example or anyone else.

But if a government official is convicted of crimes against the people, then that should never be pardonable. That limit must be there in order to help people trust that the system won't leave people unpunished when they deserve to be punished.

 

[Venom]

I would take Nixon over Cheeto any day. Hell, digging up his body and propping it up in the Oval Office would be an improvement.

Same here.

Nixon would actually expand social programs for the middle class, possibly even support single-payer healthcare.

 

[The Norseman]

Same here.

Nixon would actually expand social programs for the middle class, possibly even support single-payer healthcare.

That was then, this is now. I seriously doubt that Nixon would be supporting any kind of socialistic legislation because the Republican party doesn't. Back in the 50's and 60's mainly, unions and other legitimate ground-level grassroots organizations were powerful enough to put tremendous pressure on the gov't and the corporations hadn't yet got themselves positioned.

Beginning late 60's and into the 70's, businesses massively increased the propaganda against socialism and communism and against unions all the while they massively increased their lobbying power in Washington DC (and state governments as well).

Now it's too late. We're seeing what the results have been from all that money poured into the various projects.

Nixon would have been better than Trump in many or most respects regarding treating the presidency with some form of respect and honor, sure.
But don't think for a moment that he'd go beyond that.