Palestinian update

[a_unique_person]

Is the answer 60 years of promises of victory any time now by Palestinian leaders while the Palestinians get bombed further and further into the stone age? Would that be a contributing factor to why Palestinian children suffer post traumatic stress syndrome?

So they should just surrender and take whatever likud wants to give them?

 

[a_unique_person]

Is the answer 60 years of promises of victory any time now by Palestinian leaders while the Palestinians get bombed further and further into the stone age? Would that be a contributing factor to why Palestinian children suffer post traumatic stress syndrome?

Winston Churchill was praised for saying to the people of Britain 'I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears, and sweat.'

You may also wonder who is bombing them into the stone age, and why.

 

[a_unique_person]

The funny thing about Israeli atrocities is how often they don't stand up to scrutiny. Such as the death of Muhammad Al-Dura, a Palestinian-Arab child who was captured on film with his father, caught in the crossfire of a gun battle between the IDF, the camera rolling as they sought shelter behind a cement column for long minutes before they were both shot, the father survived but young Muhammad did not. The IDF initially took responsibility because it seemed most likely that they were shot by Israelis, but a later investigation by a German news station demonstrated they could only have been shot from Palestinian-Arab positions.

Or the Jenin "massacre" where initial death tolls were reported into the thousands, later to be 500, and finally reported by the UN to not be a massacre at all.

These "atrocities" and others have been discussed at length in these forums. If you have something specific you want to bring up, you’re as free as anyone else to do so.

I think it’s somewhat disingenuous of you to ask what honorable alternatives I think the Palestinian-Arabs have when I’ve already mentioned several. They can 1) adopt combat tactics that conform to international standards by ceasing to target civilians or allowing their own civilians to be used as human shields, 2) negotiate in good faith and 3) adopt non-violent resistance. There are of course other options, but it’s odd that you ask about alternatives when I’ve already mentioned these. Do you have any comments on them?

Finally, I agree with your assessment that the military side is terribly one-sided. What’s your point? We’ve already discussed how that does not relieve one of the obligation of international standards of behavior, do you want to disagree with that? Do you want to argue that the relative military strength of one side or another has anything to do with the right/wrong of the conflict? I don’t see how that could be.

War is not a game where one seeks to be "fair". It’s not chess where both sides start with equal forces and work towards a gentlemanly conclusion. Yes, one force in this conflict is stronger than the other, but a rational person would see that as yet another reason why the Palestinian-Arabs should seek alternatives to the actions they’ve chosen.

I'm sure they are working on a suitable story for the latest attacks, a young schoolgirl is shot multiple times with automatic weapons. A woman is shot through a window.

I can guarantee you, Mycroft, you just keep reading your usual sites, and a very plausible explanation will appear, that will thoroughly debunk any possibility of IDF fault.

 

[Mycroft]

So they should just surrender and take whatever likud wants to give them?

The deal that Arafat turned down in 2000, is that better or worse than their situation now?

You may also wonder who is bombing them into the stone age, and why.

Have their lives gotten better or worse since the Intifada?

 

[a_unique_person]

The deal that Arafat turned down in 2000, is that better or worse than their situation now?



Have their lives gotten better or worse since the Intifada?

That is what I don't get. What deal do they turn down? Why do they even have to make a deal. Get the IDF and settlers the hell out of there, then start making deals. The notion that the Palestinians have to make a deal is absurd in the extreme. As I pointed out in the fence thread, the whole concept is absurd, and it shows how Israel just runs the whole thing. Terrorists can be kept out with a fence, but settlers and IDF can pass through it at will, no restrictions. It is Israel who calls all the shots. Arafat is just a guy under house arrest in pile of rubble who makes a convenient whipping boy.

 

[Mycroft]

That is what I don't get. What deal do they turn down? Why do they even have to make a deal. Get the IDF and settlers the hell out of there, then start making deals.

Got it. It's okay for Arafat to walk away from negotiations where he was offered 100% of Gaza, 97% of the West Bank, East Jerusalem and 30 billion in reparations, call for an Intifada that causes untold suffering and economic crisis on his own people...all because in your opinion he should get all that and more without so much as a hint that he plans to end his terrorist campaign.

 

[Mycroft]

I'm sure they are working on a suitable story for the latest attacks, a young schoolgirl is shot multiple times with automatic weapons. A woman is shot through a window.

I can guarantee you, Mycroft, you just keep reading your usual sites, and a very plausible explanation will appear, that will thoroughly debunk any possibility of IDF fault.

I don't need an explanation, it doesn't really change anything. Either these soldiers are dead-wrong in their actions, in which case they should be prosecuted, or the reports of their wrongdoing are a part of the Palestinian-Arab manipulation of a sympathetic international press designed to smear Israel and create sympathy. Worst case scenario, the actions of these individuals would approach standard operating procedure of every member of Hamas and a half-dozen other terrorist organizations. Either way, the issues we're discussing are larger issues of policy, and such actions wouldn’t happen in a state of peace.

Of course, in AUP logic, if one Israeli soldier is ever found guilty of wrong-doing, that retroactively discredits the actions of every Israeli or Zionist in the past 120 years, as well as exonerating any and all atrocities perpetuated by Palestinian-Arabs.

 

[Jim Bowen]

Got it. It's okay for Arafat to walk away from negotiations where he was offered 100% of Gaza, 97% of the West Bank, East Jerusalem and 30 billion in reparations, call for an Intifada that causes untold suffering and economic crisis on his own people...all because in your opinion he should get all that and more without so much as a hint that he plans to end his terrorist campaign.

A very selective and one sided reading of the terms. I find it odd that you don't mention what Israel was going to gain from it at the expense of the Palestinians.

Jim Bowen

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Jim Bowen
A very selective and one sided reading of the terms. I find it odd that you don't mention what Israel was going to gain from it at the expense of the Palestinians.

Do you want to support your argument by listing these things?

Originally posted by Jim Bowen Jim Bowen

Denny Crane

 

[Jim Bowen]

Could do, but I'm sure that since you went to the trouble of posting your onesided version of events, you'll be more than willing to show your evenhandedness by posting the rest of it, after all, surely you're not totally biased and onesided, or are you?

Jim Bowen (just off to get a bit of work done and back in a bit)

 

[zenith-nadir]

The notion that the Palestinians have to make a deal is absurd in the extreme.

Arafat is just a guy under house arrest in pile of rubble who makes a convenient whipping boy.

Yes why make a deal for peace...peace is icky and absurd in the extreme. Plus Arafat is still promising 'victory' - any time now - while under house arrest in a pile of rubble....

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Jim Bowen
Could do, but I'm sure that since you went to the trouble of posting your onesided version of events, you'll be more than willing to show your evenhandedness by posting the rest of it, after all, surely you're not totally biased and onesided, or are you?

There have been a few times when I've wondered if you're channeling E.J.Armstrong. Do you know what a sock puppet is?

I'll tell you what I tell him; if you want to make an argument, it's up to you to make it. Just as I don't expect you to make my arguments for me, I won't make them for you.

Originally posted by Jim Bowen
Jim Bowen (just off to get a bit of work done and back in a bit)

Denny Crane.

 

[Jim Bowen]

Well, I think that you've just shown how one sided and biased you are. I'm willing to admit that there are wrongs on both sides and a compromise needs to be found. Whereas you aren't even willing to post both sides of an agreement. Where is your objectivity? All I see is plenty of subjectivity.

Jim Bowen

 

[a_unique_person]

Yes why make a deal for peace...peace is icky and absurd in the extreme. Plus Arafat is still promising 'victory' - any time now - while under house arrest in a pile of rubble....

I am not saying they won't have to, just that the do have to is crazy.