Palestinian update

[Jim Bowen]

There is fault on both sides, but what does that mean to you? Does it inspire you to look into it futher and discover what the faults are? Or is this your way of dismissing the whole issue by settling into a comfortable but ill-informed they're both equally to blame position?

A bit ironic, considering that you appear to have a total lack of interest in discussing Israeli atrocities and their continual suppression of Palestinian economic and human rights. I'm also interested in what honourable alternatives you think the Palestinians have in their fight against tanks, helicopters and the Israeli airforce. It all seems terribly onesided on the military side to me.

Jim Bowen

 

[zenith-nadir]

Considering that the might of the American army can't control terrorists/resistance fighters in Iraq, I'm not sure that the Palestinian authority would have much luck in stopping the various organisations in Palestine.

Why? The Palestinian Authority has signed treaty after treaty after treaty to stop the terrorists/resistance fighters - over the past ten years. Ten years should be enough time to stop them and the excuses why you can't kinda fall on deaf ears after the sixth or seventh year....

The reality is the Palestinian Authority has signed treaty after treaty after treaty to stop the terrorists/resistance fighters yet they do not stop them but instead pay their salaries and supply them with weapons - (the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades is part of Fateh...Fateh is the ruling party of the Palestinian Authority led by one Mr. Yasser Arafat!). Since that is a fact the Palestinian Authority became as much a legitimate military target as the terrorists/resistance fighters.

However, the Israeli army is the force of a state and is more answerable for its actions. So the question is why doesn't Israel do something about its violence?

It has. Israel recognized it's mortal enemy - Arafat and the PLO - as the sole representative of the Palestinian people in 1993. Then Israel signed the Oslo accords, Israel-PLO Recognition, Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area, Agreement on the Preparatory Transfer of Powers and Responsibilities, Interim Agreement between Israel and the Palestinians, The Wye River Plantation Agreement, The Sharm el Sheikh Agreement, Palestinian-Israeli Security Implementation Work Plan (Tenet Plan) and the Performance-Based Road Map to a Permanent Two-State Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict with it's mortal enemy to try to stop the attacks.

Guess what Jim? The mortal enemy of Israel has not stopped attacking. The Palestinian Authority supports the terrorists and the Palestinian people harbor the terrorists in their neighborhoods. Why? Because of Islamic fundamentalism is rooted so deep in the Palestinian psyche after 30+ years of war that there are Palestinian women, fathers, mothers and teens who will happily - as a goal towards martyrdom - and willfully commit suicide "for the cause"... would you leave your family, children and siblings to commit suicide for your government Jim? Regardless of the target? Would you consider that 'normal' behaviour?

A bit ironic, considering that you appear to have a total lack of interest in discussing Israeli atrocities and their continual suppression of Palestinian economic and human rights. I'm also interested in what honourable alternatives you think the Palestinians have in their fight against tanks, helicopters and the Israeli airforce. It all seems terribly onesided on the military side to me.

Jim Bowen

The Palestinians have an option. Renounce terrorism as a political tool plain and simple. Arrest the masterminds of the terror groups who ironically push the goal of a Palestinian state further and further from the Palestinian's grasp. Yet the reality is the Palestinians don't live in a free society with "a choice". Arafat choses for every Palestinian on earth and always has since 1969.

Since the Palestinian Authority refuses to stop terror, continual suppression of Palestinian economic and human rights will happen. Why? Because of that terrorism. Because Palestinians live in a society that is run by a terror organization - aka "Authority" - full of corrupt killers who steal from their own people. I personally have never seen one group of people on earth who has perpetuated so much terrorism.

It's like everyone is wearing a tinfoil hat and forgets who Arafat is, let alone what a ruthless dictator he is. It's like they forget the Jordanian civil war, the Lebanese civil war, the 30-year terrorist war with Israel, the well-documented Palestinian terrorism from the assasination of RFK to the assasination of U.S. Ambassador Cleo A Noel to the murders at the Munich Olympics to the murders at the Rome airport to the murders of children on a schoolbus during the Maalot Massacre or the Nahariya/Avivim School Bus Attack.....hell and I am just in the early 1970's for christ sakes!

For thirty years Arafat and the PLO have led a guerilla campaign against Israeli civilians - not the Israeli military. And after 30 years of terror and war Jim is surprized by the state of the palestinian society? And you're surprized by the economic and human rights problems that come with a society based upon martyrdom, jihad and terrorism under a dictator who steals international aid - (see: Arafat's Billions - Nov. 9, 2003 ) - from his own people. With all due respect wake up Jim.

Once Arafat and the Palestinian Authority are dead and gone then the Palestinians can wake up from this nightmare started by Islamic fundamentalism and perpetuated by honestly evil men such Haj Amin al-Husseini, Gamal Abdel-Nasser and Yasser Arafat.

 

[Mycroft]

A bit ironic, considering that you appear to have a total lack of interest in discussing Israeli atrocities and their continual suppression of Palestinian economic and human rights. I'm also interested in what honourable alternatives you think the Palestinians have in their fight against tanks, helicopters and the Israeli airforce. It all seems terribly onesided on the military side to me.

The funny thing about Israeli atrocities is how often they don't stand up to scrutiny. Such as the death of Muhammad Al-Dura, a Palestinian-Arab child who was captured on film with his father, caught in the crossfire of a gun battle between the IDF, the camera rolling as they sought shelter behind a cement column for long minutes before they were both shot, the father survived but young Muhammad did not. The IDF initially took responsibility because it seemed most likely that they were shot by Israelis, but a later investigation by a German news station demonstrated they could only have been shot from Palestinian-Arab positions.

Or the Jenin "massacre" where initial death tolls were reported into the thousands, later to be 500, and finally reported by the UN to not be a massacre at all.

These "atrocities" and others have been discussed at length in these forums. If you have something specific you want to bring up, you’re as free as anyone else to do so.

I think it’s somewhat disingenuous of you to ask what honorable alternatives I think the Palestinian-Arabs have when I’ve already mentioned several. They can 1) adopt combat tactics that conform to international standards by ceasing to target civilians or allowing their own civilians to be used as human shields, 2) negotiate in good faith and 3) adopt non-violent resistance. There are of course other options, but it’s odd that you ask about alternatives when I’ve already mentioned these. Do you have any comments on them?

Finally, I agree with your assessment that the military side is terribly one-sided. What’s your point? We’ve already discussed how that does not relieve one of the obligation of international standards of behavior, do you want to disagree with that? Do you want to argue that the relative military strength of one side or another has anything to do with the right/wrong of the conflict? I don’t see how that could be.

War is not a game where one seeks to be "fair". It’s not chess where both sides start with equal forces and work towards a gentlemanly conclusion. Yes, one force in this conflict is stronger than the other, but a rational person would see that as yet another reason why the Palestinian-Arabs should seek alternatives to the actions they’ve chosen.

 

[Jim Bowen]

Funny how you mention about a lack of specific atrocity stories, or their lack of substance, yet both Demon, and A_U_P amongst others have given plenty of examples, mostly ignored by thee, though.

Your honourable alternatives are pretty humourous, as they are mostly things that will lead to almost certain death and defeat for the Palestinians. The one-sidedness of the conflict has predicated the methods used by the Palestinians to continue their struggle. Perhaps it is time that you recognised that this issue is not as clear cut as you would like it to be. The Palestinians blow up the Israelis and the Israelis blow up the Palestinians. To condemn one side for blowing up the other and to ignore the other side is dodgy in the extreme.

Jim Bowen

 

[zenith-nadir]

The one-sidedness of the conflict has predicated the methods used by the Palestinians to continue their struggle. Perhaps it is time that you recognised that this issue is not as clear cut as you would like it to be. The Palestinians blow up the Israelis and the Israelis blow up the Palestinians. To condemn one side for blowing up the other and to ignore the other side is dodgy in the extreme. Jim Bowen

The one-sidedness of the conflict has predicated the methods used by Al Queda to continue their struggle. Perhaps it is time that you recognised that this issue is not as clear cut as you would like it to be. Al Queda blows up the Americans and the Americans blow up Al Queda. To condemn one side for blowing up the other and to ignore the other side is dodgy in the extreme. Zenith-Nadir...

 

[demon]

ZN:
"Al Queda blows up the Americans and the Americans blow up Al Queda. To condemn one side for blowing up the other and to ignore the other side is dodgy in the extreme. Zenith-Nadir..."

Hey, welcome to the darkside ZN...you have a good insight there.
I`ll send you a turban and one of my Osama signed copies of the Koran ok.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Hey, welcome to the darkside ZN...you have a good insight there. I`ll send you a turban and one of my Osama signed copies of the Koran ok.

I don't consider islam the "dark side". I consider muslims who premeditate their martyrdom to kill civilians the dark side. Jim sees the targetting of a bus or a restaurant or a shopping mall full of civilians in Israel as the only recourse for the Palestinians...so using that morality I guess 9-11 was the only recourse for Al Queda to beat the Americans....

 

[Jim Bowen]

I don't consider islam the "dark side". I consider muslims who premeditate their martyrdom to kill civilians the dark side. Jim sees the targetting of a bus or a restaurant or a shopping mall full of civilians in Israel as the only recourse for the Palestinians...so using that morality I guess 9-11 was the only recourse for Al Queda to beat the Americans....

Ah, but the difference between me and thee is that I see both various terrorists and states who 'legitimately' kill people as being the dark side. You only appear to see one side as being the dark side.

Jim Bowen

 

[zenith-nadir]

Ah, but the difference between me and thee is that I see both various terrorists and states who 'legitimately' kill people as being the dark side. You only appear to see one side as being the dark side. Jim Bowen

Jim what I see is a war between islamofascist guerillas - who specifically target civilians - vs a country trying to stop islamofascist guerillas - who specifically target civilians. I refuse to equate IDF operations to suicide bombing a restaurant 'for the cause'.

While you may not like IDF operations or the effect IDF operations have on Palestinian civilians the sad truth is Palestinian civilians are caught in the crossfire because the islamofascist guerillas hide amongst Palestinian civilians.

Thousands mourn Hamas chief - Friday, 22 October, 2004

Thousands of Hamas supporters have turned out for the funeral of Adnan al-Ghoul, one of the movement's leading figures in the Gaza Strip.

There is an example of what I am talking about. "Thousands of Hamas supporters", Hamas is recognized as a terrorist organization by America and the E.U., according to the rules of war you don't get to be a Hamas supporter one day - ie: part of the militancy - and an innocent civilian the next day - ie: suddenly not part of the militancy. The rules of war do not work that way. If you support the militancy you are a combatant. If you do not take an active part in supporting the militancy then you are a non combatant.

So unless the Palestinian Authority stops islamofascist guerillas and their supporters - operating in Palestinian areas of control - from attacking civilians in another country then Israel has every right to attack the islamofascist guerillas where they hide in Palestinian civilian areas. If the islamofascist guerillas are operating within Palestinian civilian areas against the wishes of the Palestinian Authority then it is the Palestinian Authority's responsibility to stop islamofascist guerillas from endangering Palestinian civilians.

 

[Jim Bowen]

I still see that you are avoiding the deliberate targetting of Palestinian civilians by the Israelis... Perhaps if this stopped, then it would help to create an atmosphere in which mutual trust and understanding could begin to blossom. Or at least the first few shoots appear.

Jim Bowen

 

[zenith-nadir]

I still see that you are avoiding the deliberate targetting of Palestinian civilians by the Israelis... Perhaps if this stopped, then it would help to create an atmosphere in which mutual trust and understanding could begin to blossom. Or at least the first few shoots appear. Jim Bowen

Dude after 10 years of endless Palestinian terrorism and several peace treaties you actually believe that islamic fundamentalists like Hamas are interested in an "atmosphere of mutual trust and understanding"? Plaeeeeze....

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Jim Bowen
Funny how you mention about a lack of specific atrocity stories, or their lack of substance, yet both Demon, and A_U_P amongst others have given plenty of examples, mostly ignored by thee, though.

Oops, read it again, Jim. I did not say there was a lack of specific atrocity stories, I mentioned two specific atrocity stories and showed how they later turned out to be false.

Feel free to bring up any of your own.

Originally posted by Jim Bowen
Your honourable alternatives are pretty humourous, as they are mostly things that will lead to almost certain death and defeat for the Palestinians.

Evidence?

Ghandi and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. recognized the danger inherent in passive resistance. If you resist someone who might not be passive, you could get hurt or killed. Still, when you compare the danger to that of resisting with a gun or a bomb, it still comes out ahead.

Originally posted by Jim Bowen
The one-sidedness of the conflict has predicated the methods used by the Palestinians to continue their struggle.

Is this a re-hash of your previous the rules don’t apply to them because they are weak argument?

In any case, it’s simply not true. They have many avenues available to them, the truth here is that you favor them choosing the one that’s most destructive to themselves.

Originally posted by Jim Bowen
Perhaps it is time that you recognised that this issue is not as clear cut as you would like it to be. The Palestinians blow up the Israelis and the Israelis blow up the Palestinians. To condemn one side for blowing up the other and to ignore the other side is dodgy in the extreme.

Classic turn-speak.

The intifada was not initiated by the Israelis.

Originally posted by Jim Bowen Jim Bowen

Denny Crane.

 

[demon]

"There is an example of what I am talking about. "Thousands of Hamas supporters", Hamas is recognized as a terrorist organization by America and the E.U., according to the rules of war you don't get to be a Hamas supporter one day - ie: part of the militancy - and an innocent civilian the next day - ie: suddenly not part of th"

Same with the IDF...thousands are onto what that bunch of gangsters are onto and it isn`t rescuing cats stuck up trees.

 

[Jim Bowen]

Interesting how you try and twist and squirm when it comes to making claims about what has actually been posted, Mycroft, or when it comes to evidence and claims of turn speak. These are all things that you appear to have little trouble in doing yourself. I note that you haven't really answered any of mine, Demon's or U_A_P's points, instead you only want to discuss the stuff that suits your views.

Jim Bowen

 

[a_unique_person]

Dude after 10 years of endless Palestinian terrorism and several peace treaties you actually believe that islamic fundamentalists like Hamas are interested in an "atmosphere of mutual trust and understanding"? Plaeeeeze....

Dude after 30 years of endless Israeli military occupation and several peace treaties you actually believe that Zionist fundamentalists like Likud are interested in an "atmosphere of mutual trust and understanding"?

Plaeeeeeze....

 

[a_unique_person]

Oops, read it again, Jim. I did not say there was a lack of specific atrocity stories, I mentioned two specific atrocity stories and showed how they later turned out to be false.

Cherry picking. Only about 50 people died in that raid, so you can't really call it a massacre, can you. And, for the fifteen millionth time, the UN said on the evidence it had, that was the conclusion it could draw, pointing out that it was not allowed to make it's own inspection, as the IDF severely restricted it's ability to make an investigation.

[/b][/quote]


Feel free to bring up any of your own.



Evidence?

Ghandi and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. recognized the danger inherent in passive resistance. If you resist someone who might not be passive, you could get hurt or killed. Still, when you compare the danger to that of resisting with a gun or a bomb, it still comes out ahead.



Is this a re-hash of your previous the rules don’t apply to them because they are weak argument?

In any case, it’s simply not true. They have many avenues available to them, the truth here is that you favor them choosing the one that’s most destructive to themselves.



Classic turn-speak.

The intifada was not initiated by the Israelis.




Denny Crane. [/B][/QUOTE]

The intifida was a popular uprising against a continuing occupation by Israel. Just get the IDF the hell out of Gaza and West Bank. Then start negotiating.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Dude after 30 years of endless Israeli military occupation and several peace treaties you actually believe that Zionist fundamentalists like Likud are interested in an "atmosphere of mutual trust and understanding"? Plaeeeeeze....

Thank you a_u_p you shall illustrate my point perfectly.

One camp in this thread doesn't seem to have a problem with tyranny and islamic fundamentalism. They complain that it is "unfair" what the IDF is doing and suicide bombing civilians is the only choice the Palestinians have in this war. Forget Arafat and the Palestinian Authority's corruption, it's 30 year record of international terror attacks against Americans, Europeans, Israelis, Jordanians and Lebanese, forget the occupation is because of a war in 1967 and continued Palestinian terrorism....and blame the IDF/Sharon/settlements/Likud for everything.

The other camp sees tyranny and islamic fundamentalism as an obstacle to peace. Groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades which indoctrinate children to martyr themselves and fill their heads full of fundamentalism like "winning" the 72 virgins if they will only blow themselves up a bus in Tel Aviv.

And that is what it boils down to. Those who whitewash Arafat's tyranny and Hamas/Al Aksa/Islamic Jihad fundamentalism and those who see those two issues as the obstacle to peace.

a_u_p prefers Arafat's tyranny to Sharon's Likud.

 

[a_unique_person]

Jim what I see is a war between islamofascist guerillas - who specifically target civilians - vs a country trying to stop islamofascist guerillas - who specifically target civilians. I refuse to equate IDF operations to suicide bombing a restaurant 'for the cause'.

30% of Palestinian children suffering post traumatic syndrome. You know how they got that.

While you may not like IDF operations or the effect IDF operations have on Palestinian civilians the sad truth is Palestinian civilians are caught in the crossfire because the islamofascist guerillas hide amongst Palestinian civilians.

You are one (censored)ed up smartarse. You find nothing sad in it. So stop with the lies. Nothing makes you happier than a wisecrack and a smiley.

 

[a_unique_person]

Thank you a_u_p you shall illustrate my point perfectly.

One camp in this thread doesn't seem to have a problem with tyranny and islamic fundamentalism. They complain that it is "unfair" what the IDF is doing and suicide bombing civilians is the only choice the Palestinians have in this war. Forget Arafat and the Palestinian Authority's corruption, it's 30 year record of international terror attacks against Americans, Europeans, Israelis, Jordanians and Lebanese, forget the occupation is because of a war in 1967 and continued Palestinian terrorism....and blame the IDF/Sharon/settlements/Likud for everything.

The other camp sees tyranny and islamic fundamentalism as an obstacle to peace. Groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades which indoctrinate children to martyr themselves and fill their heads full of fundamentalism like "winning" the 72 virgins if they will only blow themselves up a bus in Tel Aviv.

And that is what it boils down to. Those who whitewash Arafat's tyranny and Hamas/Al Aksa/Islamic Jihad fundamentalism and those who see those two issues as the obstacle to peace.

a_u_p prefers Arafat's tyranny to Sharon's Likud.

I don't prefer anything, it is not my place to prefer. It is up to them to find their own destiny. Only, you can't when every facet of your life is dominated by spy planes, helicopters, tanks, gunships, walls, etc.

As the article I linked to before says, they aren't after martydom for virgins, their young lives are already ruined, they just want them to end.

 

[zenith-nadir]

30% of Palestinian children suffering post traumatic syndrome. You know how they got that.

Is the answer 60 years of promises of victory any time now by Palestinian leaders while the Palestinians get bombed further and further into the stone age? Would that be a contributing factor to why Palestinian children suffer post traumatic stress syndrome?