P & T and Secondhand Smoke

[pipelineaudio]

I say a bar owner or restaraunt owner is free to allow smoking if he wishes. If you dont like that, go elsewhere

Next were gonna have people coming in and insist that the band doesnt play certain songs since they might offend

When its YOUR house, you set the rules

When its my house, you are my guest, if you dont like my rules, get the hell out

 

[ponderingturtle]

There are already campaigns underway by people sensitive to perfume to reduce the amount of perfume and cologne they encounter on a daily basis.

MCS is a major public health crisis after all

 

[Rocky]

I don't care about the bans or the reasoning behind them. What I want to know is,
What the crunk is the truth about secondhand smoke?

I think everyone will agree that actually smoking is bad for your health. At what point is does it stop being bad? If I'm three feet away am I safe?

-R

 

[ynot]

Even if the smoke from smoking was completely harmless to health, smoking is harmless and costly to non-smokers in other ways. It's the cause of many accidental fires that cause death and property damage (buildings, forests, etc). This increases insurance premiums for non-smokers. Perhaps non-smokers should get a discount on property insurance in the way they do from life insurance. There's also the discomfort and inconvenience from the stink that non-smokers receive from smokers. When a smoker asks "Do you mind if I smoke?" the reply should be "Do you mind if I spit?". Then if they start smoking, start spitting on them.

 

[rockoon]

I am alergic to pet dander.

Fine. So I avoid animals.. seems simple, right?

Then some jerk who was recently fondling his/her furball cat, with cat hair all over themself, decides to go out into the private business that I happen to be visiting...

Do these people have a right to drag their pet dander everywhere? It seems to me that pet owners cannot help but drag their pet dander around because obviously it covers all of their clothings... its unavoidable since their house has billions of bits of dander dust floating around...

It seems settled then... pets must be banned. Nobody should be allowed to have pets. After all... pet owners rights end where my nose begins.

Yes, that includes blind people who require dogs which drag them around town. They have no right.

Period.

Jerks!

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

There's a huge difference between lighting up or splashing on, and walking around with invisible proteins. That difference is choice.

 

[trvlr2]

What if I just don't like YOUR particular body odor?

What if the very sight of YOU turns my stomach?

Fair to remove YOU or not?

 

[Blue Mountain]

What if I just don't like YOUR particular body odor?

What if the very sight of YOU turns my stomach?

Fair to remove YOU or not?

A person's body odour is a "natural" thing, but I encounter far fewer people with offensive body odour every day than I encounter smokers. Although that might come from the fact I'm a white-collar worker in an office building. A doctor, home-care worker, or bus driver might have a different experience.

It's extremely disingenuous to tell me I should just go somewhere else if smokers insist on being able to light up anywhere they damned well choose. During the time when smoking was allowed in restaurants in my city, I recall that after an evening out I might have to take a shower and change my clothes upon returning home, simply because some people felt the had the right to pollute the atmosphere. The situation improved when restaurants started offering smoking and non-smoking sections, but was eliminated when the source of the problem was eliminated.

As a society we proscribe all sorts of public behaviour on the grounds of it being dangerous to the peace or even just being a nusiance. I can't expect to play hard rock or classical music at levels that shake the foundations of my neighbours' houses without being asked to stop, because it disturbs the neighbours. Factories and shops that emit noxious odours are told to clean up their act, shut down, or leave because they're being a nusiance.

So why should I have to put up with a smoker's noxious odours getting into my nose, hair, eyes, and clothes?

 

[Blue Mountain]

I say a bar owner or restaraunt owner is free to allow smoking if he wishes. If you dont like that, go elsewhere

Next were gonna have people coming in and insist that the band doesnt play certain songs since they might offend

When its YOUR house, you set the rules

When its my house, you are my guest, if you dont like my rules, get the hell out

A business is an unique blend of private and public space. It's not completely private like your house because the business owner invites the public to enter his premesis.

If the business is a restaurant, he can choose whatever colour scheme he wishes, because that is considered a private matter. However, he must ensure the food is prepared according to the provisions of all applicable regulations, because that is considered a matter of public health.

Over the last thirty years smoking has been moving from a private matter to a public one, over the howls and protests of the tobacco industry and those addicted to their cigarettes. Since it is now a matter of public concern, it gives the regulators the power to set forth and enforce regulations. We're now at "your right to swing your arms ends where my nose begins," where before it was, "if you don't want to get your nose broken, stay out of the boxing ring!"

 

[ynot]

A business is an unique blend of private and public space. It's not completely private like your house because the business owner invites the public to enter his premesis.

If the business is a restaurant, he can choose whatever colour scheme he wishes, because that is considered a private matter. However, he must ensure the food is prepared according to the provisions of all applicable regulations, because that is considered a matter of public health.

Over the last thirty years smoking has been moving from a private matter to a public one, over the howls and protests of the tobacco industry and those addicted to their cigarettes. Since it is now a matter of public concern, it gives the regulators the power to set forth and enforce regulations. We're now at "your right to swing your arms ends where my nose begins," where before it was, "if you don't want to get your nose broken, stay out of the boxing ring!"

Excellent post. 10/10

 

[pipelineaudio]

Theives

The guy buys a bar, you didnt pay for it

Then you want to tell him what he can and cant do in it?

So sad

 

[Blue Mountain]

Theives

The guy buys a bar, you didnt pay for it

Then you want to tell him what he can and cant do in it?

So sad

Damned right.

I want to know that he doesn't urinate in the beverage casks (health regulations)

It's nice to know an improperly wired electrical outlet won't short out and start a fire (electical codes)

I'd like to know that if a fire breaks out, the exit doors aren't barred and locked (fire regulations)

I'd really like to assume the place won't go up in a huge fireball when the natural gas furnace starts (gas regulations)

I'd like to be assured that if he serves hamburgers, the meat doesn't contain uncomfortable amounts of e. coli or mouse droppings (those pesky health regulations again)

I'd like reasonable assurance that the roof won't cave in on me if I go there after a heavy snowfall (building codes)

When you're prepared to offer more than ad hominems and posts showing more thought that the last 27 word offering, I'll be happy to debate you further. Otherwise I'm just going to write you off as a serious poster to this topic.

 

[pipelineaudio]

This is an issue that affects my life everyday, that makes me a serious poster about the issue.

You dont seem to care that you are creating a situation that causes the loss of employment for so many, just because you dont like something

go somewhere else you fascist

leave the guy alone who wants a smoking bar, why do you have to throw your weight around and dictate?

 

[Blue Mountain]

This is an issue that affects my life everyday, that makes me a serious poster about the issue.

In what way does it affect your life?

You dont seem to care that you are creating a situation that causes the loss of employment for so many, just because you dont like something

Loss of employment for whom? Tobacco company executives?

Bars? If a bar goes under because it can't get smokers in, it sounds like it was a pretty borderline business to begin with. Also, if smoking is banned in all bars, then no one bar is at a disadvantage.

go somewhere else you fascist

Please stop with the ad hominems; they're against the forum rules.

leave the guy alone who wants a smoking bar, why do you have to throw your weight around and dictate?

Let's reframe the issue. "Leave a guy alone who wants a smoke-free bar, why do you have to throw your weight around and dictate?" The norm is a smoke-free atmosphere, seeing as humans as a general rule aren't natural born smokers. So in my opinion it's up to you to defend why you should be able to pollute my atmosphere as opposed to me to having to defend why I want a pollution-free environment.

A smoking vs non-smoking bar is moot for me, since I don't attend either. But I do like to go to restaurants, and under the current laws restaurants and bars are included in the class of "public buildings," along with movie theatres, libraries, post offices, and churches. "The law in its majestic equality forbids the poor as well as the rich to beg in the streets, to sleep under bridges, and to steal bread."

 

[pipelineaudio]

In what way does it affect your life?

I run a recording studio. As can EASILY be shown in the Tempe smoking ban situation, no smoking = no patrons. See for yourslf, the once packed to the gills, Waikiki style Mill Ave. of Tempe is now a ghost town, no more than a month after the ban went up.

Here in Phoenix, we've capitalized a bit on Tempe's misery, but if the ban comes here, no smoking = no patrons = no bands = noone for me to record

My GF is a bartender. No smoking = no patrons = no bar = no job for her

Its fine for you to dictate in your ivory tower, but the facts on the ground are a little different

Loss of employment for whom? Tobacco company executives?

Me, the record store, the bartenders, the wait staff, the cab drivers, the beverage companies, the alcohol distributors, the roadies, the stagehands, the gaffers, the lightmen, the guitar techs, the music store...it goes on and on and on

Bars? If a bar goes under because it can't get smokers in, it sounds like it was a pretty borderline business to begin with. Also, if smoking is banned in all bars, then no one bar is at a disadvantage.

So becuase YOU think bars should be a certain way, they are bad business if they are another way? ALL bars close, not just the smoking ones. If barhoppers dont show up to your neghborhood they bypass ALL bars in the neighborhood. Having ALL bars nonsmoking in Tempe didnt help any of them stay afloat.

Please stop with the ad hominems; they're against the forum rules.

http://www.answers.com/topic/dictator

Let's reframe the issue. "Leave a guy alone who wants a smoke-free bar, why do you have to throw your weight around and dictate?"

Are you trying to be intellectually dishonest here? Noone is stopping ANYONE from buying a bar and making it smoke free

YOU

YOU would like to dictate to that owner what he should do

When YOU buy a bar, make it smoke free and I will SEND YOU non smoking patrons. I will also send you smokers who will refrain from smoking at YOUR bar

All I ask in return is that you respect and tolerate the rules of MY bar

simple enough?

The norm is a smoke-free atmosphere, seeing as humans as a general rule aren't natural born smokers.

They arent born with close on either

Your clothes offend me

 

[Topspy]

I'm a chain smoker and I'm uncomfortable being placed in situations where I can't smoke (airplane flights and such.) It causes me stress that is obviously not good for me either. I'm not happy that I smoke but I'm realistic enough to realize I probably will never quit. Although I was initially chagrined when smoking was banned on airlines, restaraunts (most states, I think,) and workplaces among others, I will NEVER agree on a global ban in bars. NOTHING makes a smoker want to smoke more than having a drink. That's probably why bars were so smokey in the first place. Why not a compromise? Let those who want to have smoking bars put a big sign up outside that says "SMOKING ALLOWED HERE!" and leave it up to the customers to decide whether or not to enter? There seems to be a demand for non-smoking bars, so there should be plenty of alternatives for the non-smokers. Make it mandatory that employees are smokers also. Can't you say? Sure you can. Just change the laws yet again.

Now: As I said I'm not that happy that I turned out to be a smoker (bad descisions when I was young.) I think tobacco should be outlawed, period - certainly it is the only legal substance out there that, if used as directed, probably will shorten your life or kill you outright. However the government makes so much money from cigarret taxes, and the tabacco lobby is so strong, that outlawing tobacco seems unlikely. Here's how I propose it be done:

Issue a federal "smoker ID card" to every smoker. Every smoker would have 1 year to sign up and get one. It would have a photo and whatever other security needed to insure that only the person it was issued to could use it. After 1 year, no more cards would be issued. Require by law that tobacco companies, for their sins, be required to continue to manufacture cigarettes until the last cardholder is dead. Issue temporary cards to visitors from other nations. Since non-smokers want to ban smoking so badly, they can make up the tax loss by paying for it with a sin tax on say, condoms. Or bibles. Or a pet tax on cats, which make ME wheeze.

AND: I don't think second hand smoke, in passing, is even 10% as bad for you as all the crap spewing out of car exausts, smokestacks, forest fires, coal-fired power plants, and the like....... so don't come whining around me till you get rid of your SUV

 

[Topspy]

AND of course, only smokers with their ID cards could purchase cigarettes.......

 

[Topspy]

Bars? If a bar goes under because it can't get smokers in, it sounds like it was a pretty borderline business to begin with. Also, if smoking is banned in all bars, then no one bar is at a disadvantage.

Actually, I bet in a lot of places right now a smoking bar would be a pretty popular place - standing room only. Ever been to the smoking bar in the Denver airport? They have a drink minimum for a given period of time (1 drink per 30 mins?) JUST TO BE THERE. And it's ALWAYS full! Impossible to find a seat most of the time, and those folks are paying inflated airport bar prices for drinks they probably don't care much about, just for a place to smoke......

 

[Topspy]

damn... the first paragraph above was a quote from a previous post. I'm new here. How do I quote from a previous post (in part only) and have it in the little blue box?

 

[Blue Mountain]

So becuase YOU think bars should be a certain way, they are bad business if they are another way? ALL bars close, not just the smoking ones. If barhoppers dont show up to your neghborhood they bypass ALL bars in the neighborhood. Having ALL bars nonsmoking in Tempe didnt help any of them stay afloat.

Every single bar in Tempe closed? Wow--that would be rough on the owners and staff!

I can tell andecdotes, too. Here in my town most of the bars I drive by on a regular basis are still in business, several years after a city-wide smoking ban went into place.

Are you trying to be intellectually dishonest here? Noone is stopping ANYONE from buying a bar and making it smoke free

YOU

YOU would like to dictate to that owner what he should do

I quoted half a dozen other regulations and codes a bar owner must follow. Or should we simply repeal all health codes, fire codes, electrical and gas regulations, and building codes because they cause hardship for business owners? Those damned dictators again -- telling an honest businessman what he can and can't do.

They arent born with close on either

Your clothes offend me

I live in Canada. Clothes are a necessity nine months of the year

My wearing clothes (unless I am sitting right in front of you in a neon green shirt with pink polkadots) should not detract from your enjoyment of a meal or a movie. Cigarette smoke, however, can do that, even if you're out sight behind me. And I get to carry it home with me, too. How considerate of you.