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P & T and Secondhand Smoke

I read some of those links. Part of the problem being that hundreds of such studies have been done. Yes, you can find one or two that show effects, but that's all. There are an equal number of studies that show smoking reduces cancer. It's just statistical deviations.
Also, if you read some of those studies, it would be impossible for them to double blind, which completely invalidates any results they got.

I am sorry but while I agree that the link between second hand smoke and harm is not seen in every study--I know of no study where smoking REDUCES cancer..could you provide a reference?

What you see in second hand smoke effects is likely reflecting that any harmful effect it has is probably small---there is no ological reason it would be harmless...Smoking is a risky harmful behavior--there is no reasonable scientifc dispute about that--there is also no "safe" level of exposure...the risk rises with the dose...so second hand smoke is just a lower dose....
The questions are:

Is the risk so low as to be negligible? No one knows what that means-one man's negligible is another's panci level

Is the risk so high as to require government power to protect us? Clearly not--this is not people walking around with Plutonium endangering everyone to intolerable extremes.

Is the risk avoidable? Yes. Don't go to businesses that allow smoking.

So I think that governments have no role to play here....let the market decide..let restaurant and bar owners cater to their clientele's wishes and let the anti-smokers fles their market muscles not ask the government to do it for them....
I won't go to a place that is smoky..I wish all smokers would go away somewhere to do their nasty habit....but I am not going to ask Big Brother to do my bidding in this arena--this is social engineering and that is a nasty habit that conservaitves and liberals are indulging too much nowadays
 
Bar staff benefit from smoking ban

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/71816.html

by GRAEME SMITH for THE HERALD
Web Issue 2646 October 11 2006


""Our study shows that, across a number of health indicators, positive changes were evident, even in the first two months following the introduction of the smoking ban, which is a very rapid change," said Dr Daniel Menzies, principal investigator."
 
Youtube.com

At TAM3, someone questioned P&T on the second hand smoke show. Apparently, the questioner had send info P&T about the dangers of second hand smoke.

Penn said he had looked at the information agreed that second hand smoke did actually pose a real threat. Unfortuately, B*llsh!it doesn't have the budget to redo shows, or spend time correcting them in new shows. I haven't seen the details, Penn and the questioner didn't go into it, since it was a Q&A session.

Here's the video:

 
My respect for them has just gone up, if they are prepared to admit they made a mistake.
Note that Penn didn't acknowledge they made a mistake; he said the content of the program was accurate, given the state of the scientific evidence at the time the program was made. What he is acknowledging is that more convincing evidence has emerged in the interim which, in retrospect, may invalidate a small amount of that show's content.
Still, how much of a budget does it take to add a few words onto one episode for their audience?
Not much, but is there a point to doing so? There's no guarantee that people who watched the secondhand smoke episode would watch whichever episode they issued the update on. It strikes me that an announcement on the website would be more effective.

I do find it curious to note that, contrary to Penn's statement, no such update was actually issued in the third season, nor is there any mention on the website. Perhaps, upon closer examination, their researchers found that the most recent study mentioned left few things to be desired as well.
 
I would have thought it wise to be prudent on a matter of public health?
Undoubtedly, but when one errs on the side of caution (or what one believes to be the side of caution), one still errs.

Moreover, having become accustomed to the format of P&T:BS! episodes, I'd find it rather jarring if they made some announcement regarding an earlier show, two seasons previously, that was in no way related to the topic of the episode in question. That would be like a newspaper printing a correction as part of the text of an unrelated article.
 
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To be honest, I don't look to Penn to evaluate scientific findings such as these. I don't think he can do it any better than I can. Give me six months of concerted effort in the field, and maybe I can evaluate the scientific merit, but other than that, no. Certainly as sceptics we can point out flawed methodology when it occurs, but otherwise we are left to seeing what the conclusions are of the majority of the experts.

With that said, it seems logical that second hand smoke can be somewhat harmful. The dangers of inhaling organics and particulates are well known. My hobby is woodworking, and there are many dangers associated with prolonged exposure to particulates down to 1 micron, solvents, etc. So in the absense of evidence in regards to second hand smoke, I'd prefer caution rather than a libertarian free for all in this matter.

Thank you for making this point that so many don't seem to be aware of and let's remove cigarette smoke from the statement(as you did): the dangers of inhaling organics and particulates is well known (coal dust, factory smokestacks, fly ash, etc./ acetone., gasoline, carbon tetrachloride etc. even the smoke from a wood fire can do it. None of this stuff is good for your lungs, never has been, never will be. So, back to cigarettes, they are by default bad for your lungs - like any of those others. Second hand smoke has lots less of the particulates (smoker gets those) but still enough of the organics and some particulates that there is no logical way it can't have an effect.
 
So, back to cigarettes, they are by default bad for your lungs - like any of those others. Second hand smoke has lots less of the particulates (smoker gets those) but still enough of the organics and some particulates that there is no logical way it can't have an effect.
That's highly plausible, but the contention that ETS has some effect is not, by itself, sufficient to inform government policy. If we are to weigh the benefits of outlawing certain behaviors against the drawbacks, we have to quantify those benefits and those drawbacks, and that means that we have to know how significant the effects of ETS are. For example, if things like vehicle emissions, bonfires, what have you, turned out to present a more severe threat to public health than ETS (especially if ETS were comparatively easy to avoid), it seems misplaced to implement smoking bans while failing to address the more severe threats.

One may argue that misplacing priorities does not, in and of itself, condemn a particular policy, provided that that policy protects some aspect of public health, but once you go down that road, where do you stop? This discussion is the result of a government policy to implement a blanket smoking ban in bars; the primary function of a bar, as opposed to a café, coffee shop, soda fountain, etc. is to serve alcoholic beverages, and of course, alcohol carries many health risks with it. Many bars play music, live or recorded, at levels which are bound to have some effect on the hearing of the patrons and the employees. Essentially, if we're concerned about public health, would it not make sense to simply outlaw bars?

Well, yes, but we're not concerned solely with public health; we're weighing that issue against the freedom of the average citizen to frequent bars and engage in behaviors (alcohol consumption, being exposed to loud music, finding sexual partners who might be infected with STDs) which the customers find pleasurable, even if it these activities are potentially or actually harmful to their health. Once we accept that the freedom to do so trumps the government's interest in protecting public health, we have to ask what makes smoking different. Why is it that smoking is the one behavior regarding which no compromise is possible?
 
There are an equal number of studies that show smoking reduces cancer.

What total and utter unadulterated horse crap.

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The situation, as I see it, is as follows.

The majority of medical professionals now believe second hand smoke is dangerous.

Everyone agrees that second hand smoke can be a powerful irritant.

Governments across the globe have taken notice of both these aspects and are implementing measures to reduce people's exposure to second-hand smoke.

Smokers possessed of sense and reason - i.e. the majority - understand this. They welcome such action. They understand that smoking is not being banned and they understand that such regulatory measures are necessary and indeed inevitable in a progressive civilised society.

A small minority of selfish, small-minded individuals do not agree that smoking should be regulated. They have no valid argument other than they don't see why they shouldn't be able to do what they want when they want, regardless of who they physically harm or otherwise negatively affect. They argue is that non-smokers should stay indoors if they don't want to be exposed to others' smoke.

I don't see a problem. There are always those who are too stupid and / or selfish to voluntarily conform to change and need to be forced into compliance by the introduction of laws. However, they are being forced. So, although I do resent the very presence of such people in society, I am happy that in this instance their influence is being severely diminished.
 
What total and utter unadulterated horse crap.

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The situation, as I see it, is as follows.

The majority of medical professionals now believe second hand smoke is dangerous.

Everyone agrees that second hand smoke can be a powerful irritant.

Governments across the globe have taken notice of both these aspects and are implementing measures to reduce people's exposure to second-hand smoke.

Smokers possessed of sense and reason - i.e. the majority - understand this. They welcome such action. They understand that smoking is not being banned and they understand that such regulatory measures are necessary and indeed inevitable in a progressive civilised society.

A small minority of selfish, small-minded individuals do not agree that smoking should be regulated. They have no valid argument other than they don't see why they shouldn't be able to do what they want when they want, regardless of who they physically harm or otherwise negatively affect. They argue is that non-smokers should stay indoors if they don't want to be exposed to others' smoke.

I don't see a problem. There are always those who are too stupid and / or selfish to voluntarily conform to change and need to be forced into compliance by the introduction of laws. However, they are being forced. So, although I do resent the very presence of such people in society, I am happy that in this instance their influence is being severely diminished.

What total and utter unadulterated horse crap.

Look, we've been going round this issue for 4 pages, and that's all been said before, and called out for the ridiculousness that it is. If you have something new to add to the conversation, feel free, but otherwise you're just trolling.
 
What total and utter unadulterated horse crap.

---

The situation, as I see it, is as follows.

The majority of medical professionals now believe second hand smoke is dangerous.

Everyone agrees that second hand smoke can be a powerful irritant.

Governments across the globe have taken notice of both these aspects and are implementing measures to reduce people's exposure to second-hand smoke.

Smokers possessed of sense and reason - i.e. the majority - understand this. They welcome such action. They understand that smoking is not being banned and they understand that such regulatory measures are necessary and indeed inevitable in a progressive civilised society.

A small minority of selfish, small-minded individuals do not agree that smoking should be regulated. They have no valid argument other than they don't see why they shouldn't be able to do what they want when they want, regardless of who they physically harm or otherwise negatively affect. They argue is that non-smokers should stay indoors if they don't want to be exposed to others' smoke.

I don't see a problem. There are always those who are too stupid and / or selfish to voluntarily conform to change and need to be forced into compliance by the introduction of laws. However, they are being forced. So, although I do resent the very presence of such people in society, I am happy that in this instance their influence is being severely diminished.

because there are not any non smokers who disagree with anti smoking laws :rolleyes:

My dad doesnt smoke, and Ive quit, and we both think a business owner should get to decide wether or not they allow smoking. if you dont like it, dont go there. its really that simple.

what i am sick of is a bunch of people thinking they somehow have a right to have a good experience in someone elses business. its not yours.
 
What total and utter unadulterated horse crap.

Impressive. You used my own quote back at me. Although I hesitate to tackle such towering drollery and intellect, I feel I should remind you that it was you who posted the garbage that smoking prevents cancer. I merely mentioned that it was, er, untrue.

Look, we've been going round this issue for 4 pages, and that's all been said before, and called out for the ridiculousness that it is. If you have something new to add to the conversation, feel free, but otherwise you're just trolling.

It may have been said before, but not by me, and not in this thread. If you're genuinely concerned about repetition, as you seem to be, I suspect your time would be better spent in the Conspiracy Forum.

(And if you insist on providing response please try to include some semblence of intelligence or wit)
 
because there are not any non smokers who disagree with anti smoking laws :rolleyes:

Some do. Your point?

My dad doesnt smoke, and Ive quit, and we both think a business owner should get to decide wether or not they allow smoking. if you dont like it, dont go there. its really that simple.

Would you find it acceptable to scrap fire safety legislation in privately-owned businesses? Oh, this club doesn't have a fire escape but that's OK because the business owner doesn't want one. People don't have to go if they don't want to, right?

There are dozens, if not hundreds, of individual items of legislation that businesses must comply with in the interests of health and safety. Now, protecting their clientele from the demonstrably dangerous effects of second-hand smoke will be another one. And rightly so.

what i am sick of is a bunch of people thinking they somehow have a right to have a good experience in someone elses business.

Soon they will have the right, and therefore they will be correct in thinking that. You being "sick of it" will not change a thing.
 
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It seems to me that it is not the majority that is getting there way in this issue. I think that most people would be fine with non-smoking sections in bars and restaurants but more and more places are banning smoking completely. I live near Madison Wisconsin and they started a ban a few years back. Even the cigar bar had to keep people from smoking (which naturally shut it down.) Why would either side of the argument have a problem with a bar that had an area where non-smokers have a place to go segregated from smoking areas. Seems to me this was working in many places around the country for quite a number of years. Why this big push for all out bans recently.

It actually benefits me when a place is non-smoking as I don't smoke and I don't even go to bars, but I don't think it's right that a smoker doesn't have 1 bar in a town of 200,000 that they can go and smoke in.
 
There are an equal number of studies that show smoking reduces cancer.
What total and utter unadulterated horse crap.
Actually, his wording's a little sloppy, but he's got a point. As I noted in a post a year ago,
[...] the Congressional Research Service noted that, of the 30 studies the EPA incorporated into its analysis, "six found a statistically significant (but small) effect, 24 found no statistically significant effect and six of the 24 found a passive smoking effect opposite to the expected relationship."
Italics mine. Those last studies "show" that ETS reduces the risk cancer (and various cardio-pulmonary disorders) to the same extent the first batch "show" ETS increases that risk. Or we could agree that correlation does not equal causation and that the studies in question don't "show" anything.
The situation, as I see it, is as follows.

The majority of medical professionals now believe second hand smoke is dangerous.
What they believe is beside the point; there was a time when a majority of medical professionals believed in the four humors, blood-letting and all that. What counts is what is supported by scientific evidence.
Everyone agrees that second hand smoke can be a powerful irritant.
An irritant, certainly; how powerful is the matter under discussion here. I don't think it's unreasonable to assert that whereas an activity which carries a genuine risk of causing cardio-pulmonary disorders (lung cancer, emphysema, heart disease etc.) in others is a matter which justifies government intervention, something that at worst inflicts smelly clothes, brief headaches and minor respiratory discomfort makes for a less compelling case.

This applies especially in the context of imposing blanket smoking bans in bars. Nobody needs to visit a bar, in the sense that one needs to visit a grocery store or a doctor's office or a vehicle licensing center. One visits a bar to engage in activities one finds pleasurable, and many of these activities have potentially detrimental effects on one's health, not least the consumption of alcohol. The notion that the health of bar patrons needs protecting is a ludicrous one; even the anti-smoking crusaders acknowledge this, which is why they push for smoking bans under the guise of "workers' protection."
Smokers possessed of sense and reason - i.e. the majority - understand this. They welcome such action. They understand that smoking is not being banned and they understand that such regulatory measures are necessary and indeed inevitable in a progressive civilised society.

A small minority of selfish, small-minded individuals do not agree that smoking should be regulated. They have no valid argument other than they don't see why they shouldn't be able to do what they want when they want, regardless of who they physically harm or otherwise negatively affect. They argue is that non-smokers should stay indoors if they don't want to be exposed to others' smoke.
I count at least two fallacies here, namely a false dichotomy regarding smokers' attitudes, and an argumentum ad hominem directed as smokers who don't agree with you (who are supposedly devoid of "sense and reason").

Have you actually read the thread? One smoker after another, myself included, has stated that he doesn't think that smokers should have the right to smoke anywhere they please. As I myself put it:
I don't care if I can't smoke everywhere, but I would like to be able have somewhere I can smoke and have a roof over my head and, ideally, a pint in front of me, all at the same time.
We're fine with not smoking in stores, office buildings, restaurants. We're fine with not smoking in bars of which the management has decided not to allow smoking on the premises because a substantial number of their customers demanded it. But what we refuse to accept is that there is a legitimate need to ban smoking in all bars by force of law.
I don't see a problem. There are always those who are too stupid and / or selfish to voluntarily conform to change and need to be forced into compliance by the introduction of laws.
But if you're going to go that route, why not extend it to all recreational activities with potential health risks? If any threat to public health justifies outlawing an activity, what reason is there not to outlaw bars, nightclubs and the like entirely? Why not outlaw sports which might result in severe injury and thus place an unnecessary burden on the health care system, not to mention the expense of mounting search and rescue operations in the case of climbers and boaters? Why not outlaw the use of motor vehicles for recreational purposes (such as going on holiday)?

Personally, I detest the term "nanny state," but it sounds to me like that is what you're advocating. Or are you like so many people, who resents government intervention when it affects them personally, but is perfectly happy to have it inflicted on others?
 
My dad doesnt smoke, and Ive quit, and we both think a business owner should get to decide wether or not they allow smoking. if you dont like it, dont go there. its really that simple.
But what if there is no such establishment? What if NO BAR IN TOWN disallows smoking? Or no restaurant? Or no movie theatre?

And, IMHO, that's a very valid "what if". Sometimes the market can make bad decisions.
 
But what if there is no such establishment? What if NO BAR IN TOWN disallows smoking? Or no restaurant? Or no movie theatre?

Then you deal with the smoke or don't go. What if you're in a town with no bars? Or what if the guy who owns the one nice restaurant in town hates you and has told you you're not welcome there?

And, IMHO, that's a very valid "what if". Sometimes the market can make bad decisions.

Sometimes the market does things that *you* don't like. That's life. If non-smokers, who greatly greatly outnumber non-smokers, cared enough to stop going to bars that allowed smoking, those places would be non-smoking overnight. The reality is that it just doesn't bother almost anyone as much as they claim, it's certainly doesn't bother you as much as it bothers smokers to stop smoking. The market makes the right call, it doesn't just act on some misguided sense of "majority rules", or some misguided sense that your personal values are some how objectively better then other people's. It works to maximize utility, and as smokers become less in number and more willing to quit, non-smoking establishments grow in number.

The issue just comes down to a group of people who can't get everything that want by fair means right away so they use violence to get their way. I think that's rarely an acceptable way to reason, certainly not because of a minor irritation.
 
Sometimes the market does things that *you* don't like. That's life. If non-smokers, who greatly greatly outnumber non-smokers [my edit], cared enough to stop going to bars that allowed smoking, those places would be non-smoking overnight. The reality is that it just doesn't bother almost anyone as much as they claim, it's certainly doesn't bother you as much as it bothers smokers to stop smoking.

It's this incredible arrogance I see from smokers that irritates me. The reality is that it just doesn't bother almost anyone as much as they claim ... you're claiming that your filthy, dirty, stinking, obnoxious habit doesn't bother me? You're not the one who has to change his clothes and take a shower after an evening out because of the stench you carry home with you; you're in in all the time, so you don't notice it. You also probably don't notice the running, stinging eyes and the raw, sore throat either, because you've built up a certain resistance to the smoke. And maybe you like coming down with colds, headaches, and other minor but not debilitating diseases all winter because your body is busy fighting off the irritants from cigarette smoke in addition to the bacteria and viruses about you.

And I in no way claimed you had to stop smoking altogether, as you implied in the last line I quoted from your post. Just don't pursue your obnoxious behaviour in places where others find it objectionable.

Sometimes it's the smokers' attitudes that stink as much as the smoke.
 
But what if there is no such establishment? What if NO BAR IN TOWN disallows smoking? Or no restaurant? Or no movie theatre?

And, IMHO, that's a very valid "what if". Sometimes the market can make bad decisions.

If a town is unable to support a non-smoking bar, then I daresay that having no non-smoking bar in that town is not a bad decision. If, on the other hand, it is as good as you suggest, then surely it will not be long before some enterprising businessman recognizes this and opens such an establishment.

It's this incredible arrogance I see from smokers that irritates me. The reality is that it just doesn't bother almost anyone as much as they claim ... you're claiming that your filthy, dirty, stinking, obnoxious habit doesn't bother me? You're not the one who has to change his clothes and take a shower after an evening out because of the stench you carry home with you; you're in in all the time, so you don't notice it. You also probably don't notice the running, stinging eyes and the raw, sore throat either, because you've built up a certain resistance to the smoke. And maybe you like coming down with colds, headaches, and other minor but not debilitating diseases all winter because your body is busy fighting off the irritants from cigarette smoke in addition to the bacteria and viruses about you.

If a significant portion of the population felt this way, there would be virtually no market for establishments that permit smoking. The popularity of such estiblishments suggests, then, that you are in the minority on this point. Why should a private business owner be forced to cater to your whims over those of anyone else (in particular, over those of the more profitable majority, who enjoy or don't strongly object to smoking)? You are free to patronize businesses whose rules and regulations are more to your liking.
 
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