Otherkin?

[Moronic_Laughter]

I have on occasion met some who have identified as less desireable creatures but you might even interpret that as being cool by going against the grain. The reason this happens will be explained differently depending on what their beliefs about the nature of kin and therian identities are. Someone with magical or reincarnation type beliefs (and why is it always past lives, rarely simultaneous and never future... I mean, for most how could you know?), would explain that the memories or experiences of a goldfish or a worm would be too simplistic, primitive or alien to be parsed at all.

For a naturalist like myself, I view it the same way as you do... its about how the individual feels about that creature, it's acknowledged either to be a purely psychological phenomenon (as one otherkin told me many years ago, "Whatever it takes to keep me from drinking draino in the morning.") of some kind or no comment is given at all since the magical beliefs are nonfalsifiable and no one has really studied the psychology. This has lead to arguments (there was even a thread on Tumblr with a supernaturalist otherkin claiming that stating otherkin as a psychological phenomenon is pseudoscience since no studies have been done).

But many people come at it from different angles. For some people it is escapism, for some it has been with them for so long they couldn't tell you how it developed, some try to ignore it and can't, and some grow out of it. Some people seem like they really did just come from some alien planet, and others clearly have some more mundane problems. Some are mentally ill, some aren't some are really religious or spiritual and others are hardcore skeptics. The only thing that binds us together is for whatever reason there's this persistent identification with some other kind of creature.

Now, as for "would you have been this creature if you never heard of it before." I think it kind of speaks for itself to see that no one really imagines a creature totally outside the realm of human experience. Even if the creature is alien in nature its still constructed in human ideas and mythology and Earth biology. Of course, perhaps it could be speculated that across the universe and in so called magical dimensions that creatures are all very similar from physical necessity, no way to know at this time.

As for "how are you sure that you aren't identifying as something that is only similar to the creature." Many otherkin (not all) do acknowledge this point, and state that they only call themselves whatever it is they are calling themselves because it simplifies the explanation.

 

[Susitar]

Would you consider modifications if they would give you attributes that mirrored your inner self? I don't necessarily mean visible mods, but something like enhanced hearing, smell or the ability to see in low light.

Absolutely. Enhanced sense of smell would be top-priority.

I'm pretty sure I've heard dog owners swear their dog thinks it's human.

Do you have a dog?

Nope, I grew up with a mother who was allergic to most common pets. I wish to have a dog one day.

A question for Susitar and Moronic_Laughter,

There seems to be a pattern of people only identifying with really cool animals and creatures and not unusual or less respected ones. In your experience, does anybody think they are a nautilus or a pillbug or a sea cucumber or an earthworm or a flea or a mosquito or a trilobite or a sand dollar or something?

It's hard to define "cool". I think all animals can be cool, and all animals have their disgusting aspects as well. But yes, I have talked to therians online who are insects, small fish, monkeys, rodents. But I guess it would be hard to identify as something that doesn't even have a face, psychologically speaking?

Another question for the therians, furries, and otherkin in the thread,

Do you suppose you'd still think you were this other creature even if you'd never heard of it in your entire life? Alternatively, Is it possible that the creature feelings or traits you have are actually for some other creature you'll never hear of in your entire life but the creature you associate yourself with may just be the closest approximation that feels right? For example, maybe you have the feelings or traits of some creature from ancient human ancestry because your brain includes prominent features of those ancient brains. So maybe you're like some sort of hunting, howling ape or rodent-like mammal, or fire-breating, scaly, damsel-kidnapping, knight-killing mammal but since you have no idea about this creature in your family tree you just adopted the closest analog you're familiar with like a wolf or a dragon.

Let's see if I understand you correctly: would I have identified as wolf even if I'd never heard of wolves? It's hard to say. Who knows? Perhaps I would have identified as something very close to it, such as dog or jackal. I've heard of several therians who feel animalistic and really have to search for what describes them, since they do not match commonly known animals. Sometimes, they turn out to "be" animals they've never heard of.
I don't really like the idea that therians are some kind of evolutionary throwbacks to our ancestors. If so, more people would identify with apes and monkeys, and less with quadrupedal carnivores and birds.

 

[Scopedog]

It's hard to define "cool". I think all animals can be cool, and all animals have their disgusting aspects as well. But yes, I have talked to therians online who are insects, small fish, monkeys, rodents. But I guess it would be hard to identify as something that doesn't even have a face, psychologically speaking?

In your experience, do you know of therians, otherkin, or furries who identify as lame versions of "cool" creatures? Does anybody think they are a fat, mentally retarded elf or wolf or lion or dragon with a cleft palate and some unsightly skin condition or something?

I don't really like the idea that therians are some kind of evolutionary throwbacks to our ancestors.

Is it because the proposed mechanism is too mundane and not special and not unique and not paranormal enough?

If so, more people would identify with apes and monkeys, and less with quadrupedal carnivores and birds.

Maybe the ones that identify with creatures that aren't in the human lineage are just mistaken.

 

[Scopedog]

There seems to be a lot of preference involved in this which sounds awfully convenient. I think humans are animals and are largely indistinguishable from animals and the things humans do that seem different from animals, despite the pomp and circumstance and contrivance attached, are done for more or less the same reasons that animals do what they do. I think on a moment by moment basis people attempt to express themselves as the person they prefer to be. That is to say, no ones self-expression or personality is totally set in stone, there is a lot of internal subjectivity and fluidity involved as well that dictates how a person presents themselves to the world and how they wish to be perceived, or not perceived, and how they are actually perceived by others. What I'm trying to say is that it seems like being therian, or otherkin, or furry doesn't seem to be different from people who think they are a goth or a kicker or a gangster rapper and choose to embrace all the trappings of the subculture and express themselves within their own subjective idea and concept and interpretation of those categories. Many therians, otherkin, and furries seem to be claiming that they REALLY are a turtle when in reality "I am a turtle" means you are just expressing yourself as your own personal, human, and probably totally erroneous anthropomorphized concept of a turtle in the same way that someone expresses themselves as their own concept of a gothic libertine or cowboy or hip hoppity gangbanging rapper.

 

[Moronic_Laughter]

Most furries don't claim to literally be that creature, just to clarify the distinction.

You could simplify religion and spirituality and philosophies in that way as well.

 

[Aridas]

Is it because the proposed mechanism is too mundane and not special and not unique and not paranormal enough?

I don't like it either, really. That has more to do with it being a really, really long shot, though, with other completely mundane explanations based more on psychology being far more reasonable and likely. Either way, responding the way you did reflects quite badly on you, especially in light of Susitar's previous posts and the sentence right after what you quoted, which was a reasonable point to consider.

Maybe the ones that identify with creatures that aren't in the human lineage are just mistaken.

Maybe souls do exist, too. There's lots of unfalsifiable possibilities, if you're going to argue like that.

 

[Soapy Sam]

I wish to have a dog one day.

I believe you can go to jail for that.

It's hard to define "cool". I think all animals can be cool, and all animals have their disgusting aspects as well. But yes, I have talked to therians online who are insects, small fish, monkeys, rodents. But I guess it would be hard to identify as something that doesn't even have a face, psychologically speaking?

Well, dragons don't have faces either, because they don't exist. I find it hard to see how anyone can "identify" with something imaginary - but I guess it comes down to exactly what's meant by "identify with". If one can identify with the imaginary, it's hard to see why the entire process might not be seen as simply imagination. Thinking back to my childhood, it surely sounds like the sort of thing kids do. We would run around the school playground , arms extended, "being" both fighter planes and their pilots simultaneously for instance. There seemed no reason why not. I'm unsure at what age I realised there are reasons why not, that they have to do with how others perceive us and that what others think, in a herd species, actually does matter.
At about age nine , I stopped being an aeroplane / giant robot and took up playing air guitar, which was more socially acceptable. I think all this sort of thing is very normal and healthy in children. In adults it seems neotenous, which may be no bad thing. Staying young and flexible mentally is a good idea- and so long as it's under control, as the posters here seem to have it, it sounds dandy.

 

[Scopedog]

Either way, responding the way you did reflects quite badly on you

Very well.

especially in light of Susitar's previous posts and the sentence right after what you quoted, which was a reasonable point to consider.

I quoted and responded to that sentence. Are you talking about a different sentence?

ETA: By "human lineage" I mean an unbroken reproductive chain all the way back to the beginning of the universe. This means the lineage includes one-celled organisms and worms and fish-analogues and plenty of quadropeds but definitely not birds or reptiles.

Maybe souls do exist, too. There's lots of unfalsifiable possibilities, if you're going to argue like that.

I think all humans are literally animals and everybody is as much like a wolf or a turtle or a horse or whatever as somebody claiming to think they are a wolf or a turtle or horse or whatever trapped in a human body. I'm not saying that humans deserve less respect or to be treated like animals but that all animals deserve respect.

 

[Moronic_Laughter]

We identify with the imaginary all the time.. it's part of being human. We (humans) identify with characters in stories and mythology, celebrities (unreal in the sense that we don't really know them), etc. We imagine if we were the boss instead of being whatever boss we have, or many other such fantasies well into adulthood.

We pretend to be animals and robots as kids, or imagined ourselves to be astronauts or some such growing up. People of all ages around the world have believed (imagined?) they have been possessed by spirits, transformed into animals or have identified with various spirits, animals, etc. It's all part of the spectrum of the human experience.

 

[Scopedog]

We identify with the imaginary all the time.. it's part of being human. We (humans) identify with characters in stories and mythology, celebrities (unreal in the sense that we don't really know them), etc. We imagine if we were the boss instead of being whatever boss we have, or many other such fantasies well into adulthood.

We pretend to be animals and robots as kids, or imagined ourselves to be astronauts or some such growing up. People of all ages around the world have believed (imagined?) they have been possessed by spirits, transformed into animals or have identified with various spirits, animals, etc. It's all part of the spectrum of the human experience.

Perhaps we agree on all of this then.

 

[Moronic_Laughter]

It would depend on who you ask. Many otherkin have a strong vested interest in a supernatural explanation, or an explanation that would involve some kind of brain deformation or some such. One aspect of the otherkin community is while we will pick at each others beliefs and there can be bursts of drama and forums of different flavors in general we accept we have different explanations and come at it from different angles.

 

[Aridas]

I quoted and responded to that sentence. Are you talking about a different sentence?

No. My statement stands, though.

ETA: Specifically, the sentence in question was providing an explanation for why Susitar didn't like it. You interjected other suggestions for why Susitar didn't like it which were clearly intended to cause offense, despite the context, both immediate and larger.

ETA: By "human lineage" I mean an unbroken reproductive chain all the way back to the beginning of the universe.

...No. For this to be statement to be reasonable, you would have to stretch "reproductive" far, far beyond the limits of the word, redefine "beginning of the universe," or invoke something like the Omphalos hypothesis.

This means the lineage includes one-celled organisms and worms and fish-analogues and plenty of quadropeds but definitely not birds or reptiles.

I gathered that. It's still overwhelmingly a long shot, especially when compared to explanations that just rely on observed psychology.

I think all humans are literally animals

We indisputably are.

and everybody is as much like a wolf or a turtle or a horse or whatever as somebody claiming to think they are a wolf or a turtle or horse or whatever trapped in a human body.

That depends very much on what standards one is using. You seem to be trying to use very different standards than the large, large majority of those making the claims.

I'm not saying that humans deserve less respect or to be treated like animals but that all animals deserve respect.

I'm not going to disagree, but that is treading into much more complex moral issues that would quite certainly be a derail here.

 

[Biscuit]

This might come as a surprise, but we do have lives outside our identities.. most of us, anyway. It is not like our entire grasp of existing in the universe just utterly disappears.

Not surprised at all. Why you waste your own time is puzzling. Dragons do not and never have existed. How anyone could think they are something that doesn't exist is beyond me. It defies all logic. But as I said earlier so long as you aren't hurting someone else have at it. You are missing out of many amazing things wasting your energy on dragons.

I think my earlier point stands - unless you are actually human you can't possibly have the cognitive ability to think you are something other than human.

 

[Moronic_Laughter]

How much time do I spend on it?

 

[Biscuit]

How much time do I spend on it?

Beats me. I like to day dream but I don't believe what I day dream is real. The simple undeniable reality is that this process defies logic and truth. So long as you don't hurt anyone have at it. Watch that video I posted earlier by Tim minchin. It sums up my feelings nicely.

Yesterday I saw a real dragon while on a hike in the Santa Catalina's. it was a a foot long centipede.

 

[luchog]

A question for Susitar and Moronic_Laughter,

There seems to be a pattern of people only identifying with really cool animals and creatures and not unusual or less respected ones. In your experience, does anybody think they are a nautilus or a pillbug or a sea cucumber or an earthworm or a flea or a mosquito or a trilobite or a sand dollar or something?

I've obviously spent more time with the Furry than the Therian (thanks Susitar, I'd completely forgotten about that distinction) and Otherkin communities, so this is just my limited experience with one, and more extensive experience with the other. I can't say that I've known anyone to go that far down on the evolutionary scale. However, there are a lot that do not identify with/as the traditional "power" animals like big cats, wolves, dolphins, etc. There are quite a few who feel themselves closer to more "cute" or social animals. One furry I used to see regularly at cons was into ring-tailed lemurs (and had an absolutely amazing fursuit with a tail at least 6-7 feet long).

I've known rabbits, squirrels, various rodents, lower primates, and quite a range of animals. The majority of the more "hardcore" types do tend to go for the "strong" animals with powerful images. But there are plenty who do not. For myself, my own personal... totem, for lack of a better word, is the rat. Interestingly, I've known a considerably higher percentage of transgenders among the Furry/Therian/Otherkin communities; and I'm certain that there is a psychological relation between them.

 

[luchog]

Would you consider modifications if they would give you attributes that mirrored your inner self? I don't necessarily mean visible mods, but something like enhanced hearing, smell or the ability to see in low light.

I would even go for visible ones. I'd kill for a functional tail.

 

[Biscuit]

I have been talking with a friend about starting a business importing mouse lemurs. Damn things are the new chinchilla. I could identify with a mouse lemur.

 

[marplots]

I would even go for visible ones. I'd kill for a functional tail.

I have no desire to be other than human, but I'd love a tail too.

 

[luchog]

It's hard to define "cool". I think all animals can be cool, and all animals have their disgusting aspects as well. But yes, I have talked to therians online who are insects, small fish, monkeys, rodents. But I guess it would be hard to identify as something that doesn't even have a face, psychologically speaking?

I'd actually put it a little differently; it would be hard to identify as somethign that doesn't have some form of complex behaviour. Not many people are going to identify with a creature whose entire life consists of ingestion, excretion, and reproduction (despite how many people who probably do little else). There has to be some distinctive characteristic that draws them, either reflecting their own nature, or something they desire to be. For fish, it can simply be aethetics that attracts people to identify with them; it doesn't have to be the power and danger of sharks, it can simply be the colourful beauty of, say, a Betta or Lionfish, or the quiet grace of a Leafy Sea Dragon.