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Oscar Pistorius shoots girlfriend

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The judge doesn't seem to think Oscar was in a combat situation. And SA isn't Vietnam (yet). :D
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That was a metaphor for "killing innocent people", not creating a warfare scenario. Killing the innocent is quite frequently frowned upon today, but hardly unknown, watching the news.
 
For Anglolawyer

http://criminallawza.net/2014/05/28/criminal-law-in-4d/

" In the case of private/self-defence the value judgments (made by Courts) to date allow us to set out the requirements of the defence as follows:
1. You can only resort to force in response to an attack against you that is unlawful itself (you can’t resort to force against someone who is acting lawfully, such as in the execution of a warrant of arrest against you);
2. It must have commenced or be imminent (It is possibly worth noting the ground breaking decision of Satchwell J in (Engelbrecht 2005 WLD) in which she accepted that it is enough if the attack was ‘inevitable’.);
3. It must be an attack against a legally protected interest of yours or of another person (life, limb, or property of substantial value);
4. It must be necessary to resort to force;
5. That force must be directed at the attacker (not someone else); and
6. The extent of force must be necessary and reasonable – for instance, you cannot shoot someone for threatening you with a light assault.

A noise behind a closed door does not meet the requirements of item 2 or item 3.

Geeez! He starts with this:

Criminal law can be confusing because conduct can be both reasonable and unreasonable, right and wrong, and things can exist or not, all at the same time. This might appear to be an indictment of criminal law as inherently contradictory, but it is not. It is an attempt to illuminate how all these things can be true at the same time – without contradiction.
The key is to recognise that the answers depend on the particular perspective or context from which the questions must be approached. It isn’t even as simply as a reminder that there is (presumably) a world out there, of reality, and that we have no direct access to this reality – we can only perceive it. This is only part of what must be recognised. In the final analysis I will identify four different dimensions or perspectives from which questions in criminal law must be approached.
It is first necessary to sketch out the requirement of criminal liability in brief, before discussing the different perspectives/dimensions applicable to these requirements.
Meaningless crap. Criminal law is the easiest law to understand.

Anyway, 2 is satisfied (there is a guy in the toilet who has invaded your home intending to do something bad - like steal, rape or kill) and so is 3 - the attack on your property has already taken place (the guy has entered it without consent) and is also immediately threatened.

Guys, forget the law and use your imaginations. Imagine an intruder in your home in the middle of the night. How scary is that? IMO very. Imagine you have others to protect beside yourself.
 
I found that very difficult to follow. Which is odd because there is nothing difficult about this case analytically. Not in English law anyway. I suspect SA law has taken a wrong turn somewhere. The author, while declaiming on the supposed difficulty of the concepts, certainly doesn't make a good job of explaining them.

Here, so far as murder is concerned, he falls to be judged on the facts as he subjectively (not objectively, not reasonably) believed them to be. On that assumption, did he use reasonable force in defence of himself, his property and/or another? If so (as I think) he is not guilty of murder. As we don't have an offence of homicide by negligence (unless it is gross) he would not be convicted of any kind of homicide here.

I shall not be surprised if the judge's reasoning fails to withstand scrutiny but it makes no difference to my argument which concerns whether there is any objective basis for the CH conviction.

Btw. your smiley suggests you think I care about the outcome and will be dismayed if a state appeal succeeds. You are mistaken again, I am afraid. You are confusing me with Lionking.


Well no - as Grant observes, the judge, bafflingly, didn't even raise the issue of whether Pistorius subjectively felt that his life was in imminent danger, and if he did, whether he used proportionate force (which, taken together, would be the test for murder vs self-defence).

Instead, the judge concentrated solely on the intent part. And in my view Grant is entirely correct to claim that Masipa messed up stupendously on the way she treated indirect intent (dolus eventualis) alongside mistaken identification (error in persona).

What Masipa appears to have done is as follows - and the order of things is important here:

Firstly, she stated that the prosecution had not proven that Pistorius knew it was Reeva behind the door and not an intruder, plus the court found that the facts and evidence better fitted Pistorius' version, so the court concluded that Pistorius genuinely believed that there was an intruder behind the toilet door.

Secondly, she then applied the intent test under these circumstances (i.e. Pistorius genuinely believing there was an intruder behind the door), BUT.... she only applied the test with relation to Reeva Steenkamp!

In other words, her "reasoning" appears (amazingly) to have been as follows: since Pistorius believed he was firing at an intruder, he clearly did not intent to kill (or seriously injure) the actual victim, i.e. Reeva Steenkamp.

A reading of Masipa's verdict makes it pretty clear that this is indeed the way in which she decided there was no indirect intent. However, if this is the case, then she has obviously misapplied the law extremely incompetently. She has not understood that if there is a case of mistaken identification, then intent applies to the person who was shot in error. In making this mistake, she seeks to support her position by stating (correctly) that there is no concept of "transferred intent" in SA law. However, she totally misunderstands and misinterprets what that actually means, and erroneously takes it to mean that since Pistorius only intended to kill/injure an "intruder", this intent cannot therefore be "transferred" to the actual victim, Reeva Steenkamp.

I cannot see how the prosecution cannot appeal this decision. Again, if Masipa's written judgement goes much further than her oral verdict in regard to whether the court believes Pistorius genuinely felt in imminent mortal danger, then this might become moot. But as it stands, it appears to be a shocking and incompetent misapplication of the law.
 
Geeez! He starts with this:


Meaningless crap. Criminal law is the easiest law to understand.

Anyway, 2 is satisfied (there is a guy in the toilet who has invaded your home intending to do something bad - like steal, rape or kill) and so is 3 - the attack on your property has already taken place (the guy has entered it without consent) and is also immediately threatened.

Guys, forget the law and use your imaginations. Imagine an intruder in your home in the middle of the night. How scary is that? IMO very. Imagine you have others to protect beside yourself.


No, I think Part 2 refers specifically to an attack upon you, not to an invasion of the home etc. In other words, you must either be being attacked with potentially deadly force or believe yourself to be imminently attacked with potentially deadly force, in order to defend yourself with lethal force.

I don't think be a long stretch that Pistoris passes the test for a "reasonable person" in this respect, all the more so since he was a licensed gun owner who had recently been explicitly tested on the various scenarios where it was - and was not - lawfully reasonable to fire one's firearm. The scenario in which Pistorius claims to have found himself would categorically fall into the "not lawful" bracket, and he should have known that.

I have no idea why you're so militant on the "right" to shoot a lethal firearm at someone simply because they've broken into your house. And, by the way, it doesn't matter one jot whether that's in SA (which is not quite as "lawless" as you describer earlier.....) or UK or wherever. You ONLY have the right to use lethal force to defend yourself (and/or others) where you believe there is an imminent threat to your life (or that of others). And when considered objectively, this means that either somebody must have actually started to attack you with potentially lethal force (and fists/feet alone would not count here, only probably an attack with a gun, knife or large blunt object) or it is reasonable to believe that such an attack was imminent (e.g. the other person raised a gun towards you, or was running towards you with a knife, or had already fired and missed, etc), or such an attack could reasonably be construed as inevitable (e.g. the other person was loading a gun while shouting that they were going to kill you).
 
And it's worth restating that Masipa didn't even touch on this whole issue (whether Pistorius subjectively felt himself/Reeva to be in imminent mortal danger from the intruder, or, if so, whether the "reasonable man" should have felt himself/Reeva to be in imminent mortal danger, and then the question of whether Pistorius used proportionate force) in her oral judgement. Astonishing.
 
Then there should be carte blanche to shoot blindly through doors in one's own property whenever one hears or believes one hears an unidentified noise on the other side?


Apparently there is in SA even when the woman on the other side of the door is white, wealthy and reasonably famous.

We shall have to await sentencing (and possible appeals) to see how far this blank yellow white card extends.
 
No, I think Part 2 refers specifically to an attack upon you, not to an invasion of the home etc. In other words, you must either be being attacked with potentially deadly force or believe yourself to be imminently attacked with potentially deadly force, in order to defend yourself with lethal force.

I don't think be a long stretch that Pistoris passes the test for a "reasonable person" in this respect, all the more so since he was a licensed gun owner who had recently been explicitly tested on the various scenarios where it was - and was not - lawfully reasonable to fire one's firearm. The scenario in which Pistorius claims to have found himself would categorically fall into the "not lawful" bracket, and he should have known that.

I have no idea why you're so militant on the "right" to shoot a lethal firearm at someone simply because they've broken into your house. And, by the way, it doesn't matter one jot whether that's in SA (which is not quite as "lawless" as you describer earlier.....) or UK or wherever. You ONLY have the right to use lethal force to defend yourself (and/or others) where you believe there is an imminent threat to your life (or that of others). And when considered objectively, this means that either somebody must have actually started to attack you with potentially lethal force (and fists/feet alone would not count here, only probably an attack with a gun, knife or large blunt object) or it is reasonable to believe that such an attack was imminent (e.g. the other person raised a gun towards you, or was running towards you with a knife, or had already fired and missed, etc), or such an attack could reasonably be construed as inevitable (e.g. the other person was loading a gun while shouting that they were going to kill you).

None of this could be justified by merely hearing unknown noises behind a closed door.
 
Geeez! He starts with this:


Meaningless crap. Criminal law is the easiest law to understand.

Anyway, 2 is satisfied (there is a guy in the toilet who has invaded your home intending to do something bad - like steal, rape or kill) and so is 3 - the attack on your property has already taken place (the guy has entered it without consent) and is also immediately threatened.

Guys, forget the law and use your imaginations. Imagine an intruder in your home in the middle of the night. How scary is that? IMO very. Imagine you have others to protect beside yourself.
You can't judge his intent until you see him.
I thought the legality of Oscars actions is what we are discussing. Are you changing the subject?
It's very scary, but it would still be illegal for me to do what Oscar did. And, Oscar had taken firearms training and passed tests concerning the very issues we are talking about.
 
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None of this could be justified by merely hearing unknown noises behind a closed door.


I totally agree. Especially since, by definition, Pistorius can have had no idea who the mythical "intruder" was, whether (s)he was armed or carrying any sort of weapon at all, or whether the intruder was intent on fleeing or confronting. In addition, Pistorius can, also by definition, have heard no threats from behind that door, and nor can he have even attempted any meaningful dialogue with the "intruder" (otherwise Reeva would surely have identified herself).

But it's important also to remember that for murder it's a subjective test - i.e. not whether it's reasonable for Pistorius to have felt his life was in imminent danger, but rather whether the court believes that Pistorius actually DID (even if "unreasonably") feel his life was in imminent danger. Note though that in order for the court to assess this subjective element, it has to (to a degree) go back to objective analysis of the context, the circumstances, the personality of Pistorius himself, the evidence and testimony.`If the court judges that Pistorius truly believed his life to be in imminent danger, then it has to acquit on murder, but if it then holds that this belief was not "reasonable", it should convict on culpable homicide (all else being equal).

The astonishing thing here, however, is that Masipa didn't even touch on this whole issue in her oral judgement! She only went as far as saying that the court chose to believe that Pistorius truly thought that it was an intruder in the toilet rather than Reeva. She should then have addressed the issue of whether Pistorius felt his (and Reeva's) life was in imminent danger, since this was explicitly the second part of his defence as a justification for firing the aimed shots into the door!! Instead, she jumped straight to intent, and made a massive error (in my view).
 
I totally agree. Especially since, by definition, Pistorius can have had no idea who the mythical "intruder" was, whether (s)he was armed or carrying any sort of weapon at all, or whether the intruder was intent on fleeing or confronting. In addition, Pistorius can, also by definition, have heard no threats from behind that door, and nor can he have even attempted any meaningful dialogue with the "intruder" (otherwise Reeva would surely have identified herself).

But it's important also to remember that for murder it's a subjective test - i.e. not whether it's reasonable for Pistorius to have felt his life was in imminent danger, but rather whether the court believes that Pistorius actually DID (even if "unreasonably") feel his life was in imminent danger. Note though that in order for the court to assess this subjective element, it has to (to a degree) go back to objective analysis of the context, the circumstances, the personality of Pistorius himself, the evidence and testimony.`If the court judges that Pistorius truly believed his life to be in imminent danger, then it has to acquit on murder, but if it then holds that this belief was not "reasonable", it should convict on culpable homicide (all else being equal).

The astonishing thing here, however, is that Masipa didn't even touch on this whole issue in her oral judgement! She only went as far as saying that the court chose to believe that Pistorius truly thought that it was an intruder in the toilet rather than Reeva. She should then have addressed the issue of whether Pistorius felt his (and Reeva's) life was in imminent danger, since this was explicitly the second part of his defence as a justification for firing the aimed shots into the door!! Instead, she jumped straight to intent, and made a massive error (in my view).

I'm not sure if there is a "reasonable doubt standard" a SA judge has to follow, what she did state was that prosecution was unable to prove that Oscar knew it was Reeva in the toilet, so perhaps under SA law she must accept Oscars story as true? This leads to the question whither he was legally justified in doing what he did. I think he clearly intended to kill whoever was behind that door and because he didn't know that he was actually in danger makes him a murderer in my eyes.
 
......
Guys, forget the law and use your imaginations. Imagine an intruder in your home in the middle of the night. How scary is that? IMO very. Imagine you have others to protect beside yourself.

But there was no intruder except in Pistorius' mind. The key questions are whether it was reasonable for Pistorius to believe that an intruder was in his home, and if so, was it reasonable for Pistorius to fire four shots through a closed door at someone who posed no immediate threat when he instead could have hobbled out of the bedroom safely and taken Reeva with him?

Slate has just reprinted a pre-trial analysis by someone who apparently expected a murder conviction.
http://www.slate.com/articles/healt..._reeva_steenkamp_he_s_a_dangerous.single.html

The writer makes the obvious point that if Pistorius, as he claims, was screaming "Get out of my house!," Reeva would have called out "Calm down, darling. It's just me" -- unless she was cowering in terror of a lunatic.
 
Well no - as Grant observes, the judge, bafflingly, didn't even raise the issue of whether Pistorius subjectively felt that his life was in imminent danger, and if he did, whether he used proportionate force (which, taken together, would be the test for murder vs self-defence).

Instead, the judge concentrated solely on the intent part. And in my view Grant is entirely correct to claim that Masipa messed up stupendously on the way she treated indirect intent (dolus eventualis) alongside mistaken identification (error in persona).

What Masipa appears to have done is as follows - and the order of things is important here:

Firstly, she stated that the prosecution had not proven that Pistorius knew it was Reeva behind the door and not an intruder, plus the court found that the facts and evidence better fitted Pistorius' version, so the court concluded that Pistorius genuinely believed that there was an intruder behind the toilet door.

Secondly, she then applied the intent test under these circumstances (i.e. Pistorius genuinely believing there was an intruder behind the door), BUT.... she only applied the test with relation to Reeva Steenkamp!

In other words, her "reasoning" appears (amazingly) to have been as follows: since Pistorius believed he was firing at an intruder, he clearly did not intent to kill (or seriously injure) the actual victim, i.e. Reeva Steenkamp.

A reading of Masipa's verdict makes it pretty clear that this is indeed the way in which she decided there was no indirect intent. However, if this is the case, then she has obviously misapplied the law extremely incompetently. She has not understood that if there is a case of mistaken identification, then intent applies to the person who was shot in error. In making this mistake, she seeks to support her position by stating (correctly) that there is no concept of "transferred intent" in SA law. However, she totally misunderstands and misinterprets what that actually means, and erroneously takes it to mean that since Pistorius only intended to kill/injure an "intruder", this intent cannot therefore be "transferred" to the actual victim, Reeva Steenkamp.

I cannot see how the prosecution cannot appeal this decision. Again, if Masipa's written judgement goes much further than her oral verdict in regard to whether the court believes Pistorius genuinely felt in imminent mortal danger, then this might become moot. But as it stands, it appears to be a shocking and incompetent misapplication of the law.
If this is how she reasoned things out, I agree with your critique.

No, I think Part 2 refers specifically to an attack upon you, not to an invasion of the home etc. In other words, you must either be being attacked with potentially deadly force or believe yourself to be imminently attacked with potentially deadly force, in order to defend yourself with lethal force.

I don't think be a long stretch that Pistoris passes the test for a "reasonable person" in this respect, all the more so since he was a licensed gun owner who had recently been explicitly tested on the various scenarios where it was - and was not - lawfully reasonable to fire one's firearm. The scenario in which Pistorius claims to have found himself would categorically fall into the "not lawful" bracket, and he should have known that.

I have no idea why you're so militant on the "right" to shoot a lethal firearm at someone simply because they've broken into your house. And, by the way, it doesn't matter one jot whether that's in SA (which is not quite as "lawless" as you describer earlier.....) or UK or wherever. You ONLY have the right to use lethal force to defend yourself (and/or others) where you believe there is an imminent threat to your life (or that of others). And when considered objectively, this means that either somebody must have actually started to attack you with potentially lethal force (and fists/feet alone would not count here, only probably an attack with a gun, knife or large blunt object) or it is reasonable to believe that such an attack was imminent (e.g. the other person raised a gun towards you, or was running towards you with a knife, or had already fired and missed, etc), or such an attack could reasonably be construed as inevitable (e.g. the other person was loading a gun while shouting that they were going to kill you).
How exactly do you tell whether a night-time home invader is intent on merely rifling through the silver ware or taking your life? Do you set him a questionnaire? Maybe the intruder himself doesn't know. Rudy Guede did not invade Meredith Kercher's home intending to kill anybody but she ended up dead nonetheless. Say she had heard him in the toilet taking a crap. And say she had a gun in her handbag. Could she have shot him? I say yes and if I were on her jury she would walk.

And it does matter a jot where it is. He was living in a gated community with security staff. Levels of crime and violence in SA are very high. Burglars are more likely to encounter armed occupants in SA than here and are thus more likely to go armed themselves. That is all relevant context. One more thing that nobody has mentioned on this thread yet (I think) Oscar is a very famous person and thus a potential target for nutters like the one who killed John Lennon or the one who knifed George Harrison, or the one who got into the queen's bedroom etc etc. That distinguishes him from most of us.

And it's worth restating that Masipa didn't even touch on this whole issue (whether Pistorius subjectively felt himself/Reeva to be in imminent mortal danger from the intruder, or, if so, whether the "reasonable man" should have felt himself/Reeva to be in imminent mortal danger, and then the question of whether Pistorius used proportionate force) in her oral judgement. Astonishing.
If so, I agree.

You can't judge his intent until you see him.
I thought the legality of Oscars actions is what we are discussing. Are you changing the subject?
It's very scary, but it would still be illegal for me to do what Oscar did. And, Oscar had taken firearms training and passed tests concerning the very issues we are talking about.
His intent can be inferred from his unauthorised presence in your home in the middle of the night - to steal, rape or kill. There is no way of telling which without incurring risk and no reason why you should have to do that.
But there was no intruder except in Pistorius' mind. The key questions are whether it was reasonable for Pistorius to believe that an intruder was in his home, and if so, was it reasonable for Pistorius to fire four shots through a closed door at someone who posed no immediate threat when he instead could have hobbled out of the bedroom safely and taken Reeva with him?

Slate has just reprinted a pre-trial analysis by someone who apparently expected a murder conviction.
http://www.slate.com/articles/healt..._reeva_steenkamp_he_s_a_dangerous.single.html

The writer makes the obvious point that if Pistorius, as he claims, was screaming "Get out of my house!," Reeva would have called out "Calm down, darling. It's just me" -- unless she was cowering in terror of a lunatic.
Not a great point since she may have believed there was an intruder too and not wanted him to calm down but rub the guy out.

Look, you guys, I don't want to re-fight the whole case. My only point is that once he is held not to have known Reeva was behind the door, according to what objective standard of conduct should what he did be compared? I do not think this is something for the judge to make up but ought to be rooted in expert evidence.
 
<snip>
His intent can be inferred from his unauthorised presence in your home in the middle of the night - to steal, rape or kill. There is no way of telling which without incurring risk and no reason why you should have to do that.


<snip>
Look, you guys, I don't want to re-fight the whole case. My only point is that once he is held not to have known Reeva was behind the door, according to what objective standard of conduct should what he did be compared? I do not think this is something for the judge to make up but ought to be rooted in expert evidence.

You cannot infer that based on a noise behind a closed door. Your argument might have some slight merit if Oscar believed himself to be alone. Because he knew he was sharing the house with someone else, he had a responsibility to be certain the noise he was shooting at wasn't Reeva. He did not verify that she was actually in the bedroom. He didn't call out to her to find out where she was. His behavior was reckless and irresponsible.
If I'm sharing a bedroom with someone I love and I hear a strange noise. I am morally obligated to be certain my loved one is behind me before I start blasting away with my hand cannon.
 
Well no - as Grant observes, the judge, bafflingly, didn't even raise the issue of whether Pistorius subjectively felt that his life was in imminent danger, and if he did, whether he used proportionate force (which, taken together, would be the test for murder vs self-defence).

Instead, the judge concentrated solely on the intent part. And in my view Grant is entirely correct to claim that Masipa messed up stupendously on the way she treated indirect intent (dolus eventualis) alongside mistaken identification (error in persona).

What Masipa appears to have done is as follows - and the order of things is important here:

Firstly, she stated that the prosecution had not proven that Pistorius knew it was Reeva behind the door and not an intruder, plus the court found that the facts and evidence better fitted Pistorius' version, so the court concluded that Pistorius genuinely believed that there was an intruder behind the toilet door.

Secondly, she then applied the intent test under these circumstances (i.e. Pistorius genuinely believing there was an intruder behind the door), BUT.... she only applied the test with relation to Reeva Steenkamp!

In other words, her "reasoning" appears (amazingly) to have been as follows: since Pistorius believed he was firing at an intruder, he clearly did not intent to kill (or seriously injure) the actual victim, i.e. Reeva Steenkamp.

A reading of Masipa's verdict makes it pretty clear that this is indeed the way in which she decided there was no indirect intent. However, if this is the case, then she has obviously misapplied the law extremely incompetently. She has not understood that if there is a case of mistaken identification, then intent applies to the person who was shot in error. In making this mistake, she seeks to support her position by stating (correctly) that there is no concept of "transferred intent" in SA law. However, she totally misunderstands and misinterprets what that actually means, and erroneously takes it to mean that since Pistorius only intended to kill/injure an "intruder", this intent cannot therefore be "transferred" to the actual victim, Reeva Steenkamp.

I cannot see how the prosecution cannot appeal this decision. Again, if Masipa's written judgement goes much further than her oral verdict in regard to whether the court believes Pistorius genuinely felt in imminent mortal danger, then this might become moot. But as it stands, it appears to be a shocking and incompetent misapplication of the law.

I don't believe the second bit in bold is true, LJ. This was something various legal commentators (including Grant) claimed after the first part of the judge's ruling, but that criticism seems to have fallen by the wayside since. In fact the judge specifically talks about "Reeva or any other person"; she doesn't limit 'intent' to Reeva at all.

However as I've said before, the fact is that if the judge accepted Pistorius believed his life to be in danger (a factual finding rather than a legal one, and hardly unreasonable if the court accepted as a reasonable possibility that Pistorius believed an armed intruder to be in the toilet, as it did) the question of intent in relation to the intruder is moot, putative private defence being a defence to murder in those circumstances.

First bit in bold, I'd argue that the judge's discussion of the circumstances in which Pistorius shot and her acceptance that it was reasonably possible he believed there to be an armed intruder on the other side of the door are themselves evidence he believed his life to be in danger, simply because even a reasonable person in the position Pistorius was in at the moment when he shot would believe that. The difference is that person would have acted differently, not that they wouldn't have believed their life to be in imminent danger.

Also, when you mention the "use of proportionate force", that would mean proportionate force from Pistorius' subjective standpoint, I assume? In other words, proportionate force given he believed his life to be in danger, not proportionate force from the perspective of a reasonable person (because that would surely be culpable homicide?).

ETA: And one other thing worth mentioning is that the prosecution never challenged Pistorius' claim that he felt his life was under imminent threat from the intruder, because they always argued he knew it was Steenkamp. Therefore nothing had been put to the judge to challenge this belief in the first place; all she had to go on was his word that this was the case and the circumstances in which he believed himself to be, which the court had already accepted to be reasonably possible. On what grounds should she have believed beyond reasonable doubt that this wasn't true - what would constitute that proof, in your view?
 
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The missing word at the bottom of page 11 of the judgment is likely to be 'shortage'.

ETA 'Distraught' and 'implored' on p.19, not 'destroyed' or 'employed'. This thing could have used a good proof read before circulation.
 
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Does the judge produce a written report? (This appears to be a transcription of her spoken words, with a few errors and elisions.)

I think so, or at least I've seen a few commentators make reference to one.

As you say, this is just a transcript of the spoken ruling.
 
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