Open Minded Testing Organisations For Paranormal Phenomena

[Ashles]

Goodbye, Nina Kulagina.

I'd forgotten about that thread. It's a good one with both Interesting Ian and Jambo on top form.

 

[Dr Adequate]

The Fox Sisters "founders of modern spiritualism" demonstrated their mediumship to several scientists. Sceptics say that they cracked their toes to produce spirit rappings and that Margaretta Fox confessed to this herself. What sceptics don't tell is the second half of the tale :

Margaretta admitted that her confession was a lie devised by herself and her youngest sister Kate to get revenge on their older sister Leah. Margaretta and Kate devised the spirit communication methods themselves, it was their older sister Leah however who took most of the credit and gained most respect as a medium because of her resources, money and older age, she then disowned her 2 youngest alcoholic sisters who'd brought her fame. Margaretta and Kate became jealous and this is why Margaretta made up a confession which she later retracted.

A little more detail:

Nevertheless, in 1888, Margaret Fox made a public statement denouncing the spiritualists, claiming that she had made the noises by cracking her toes.

On October 21, 1888, Margaret appeared before an audience of 2000 to demonstrate how she had fraudulently produced the spirit raps. In her stocking feet, on a small pine platform six inches above the floor, Margaret produced raps audible throughout the theater by cracking her toe-joints! Doctors from the audience came on stage to verify the source of the sound.

Margaret confessed that she and her sister used this and other methods to produce the raps. Sometimes they used an apple on a string, bouncing it on the floor out of sight behind the furniture. Her confession showed that the entire spiritualism movement was founded on fraudulent events. Kate, who was with her at the time remained silent, as if in agreement. The following year, however, Margaret recanted, saying she had fallen under the influence of people who were inimical to spiritualism and who had offered her money.

... and who taught her how to make rapping noises with her toe joints loud enough to be audible throughout a theatre seating two thousand people, a talent she never previously knew she had. Those evil, evil skeptics --- they'll do anything to conceal The Truth, won't they?

 

[jambo372]

A little more detail:... and who taught her how to make rapping noises with her toe joints loud enough to be audible throughout a theatre seating two thousand people, a talent she never previously knew she had. Those evil, evil skeptics --- they'll do anything to conceal The Truth, won't they?

She could always rap her toes, this has nothing to do with it. The only thing sceptics have against the sisters is a faked confession of how she created bogus spirit rappings which was later retracted. Also even if she did this in a seance it wouldn't explain the various other phenomena.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Sarcasm's wasted on you, isn't it?

Yes, I know she could always rap her toes. Since her childhood, in fact.

Dolt.

 

[Azrael 5]

She could always rap her toes, this has nothing to do with it. The only thing sceptics have against the sisters is a faked confession of how she created bogus spirit rappings which was later retracted. Also even if she did this in a seance it wouldn't explain the various other phenomena.

Phenomena such as.......? Obviously you have factual accounts of this phenomena of course.
Dont you?

 

[Dr Adequate]

Well, Azrael, since you ask, let me remind you of my post:

Margaret confessed that she and her sister used this and other methods to produce the raps. Sometimes they used an apple on a string, bouncing it on the floor out of sight behind the furniture. Her confession showed that the entire spiritualism movement was founded on fraudulent events.

Those other phenomena.

 

[Azrael 5]

Well, Azrael, since you ask, let me remind you of my post:Those other phenomena.

Cheers Dr A..an apple bobbing on a string,lol.

Wheres the laughing dog gif?? Imagine it here:

 

[Mojo]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Open Minded Testing Organisations For Paranormal Phenomena

It's irrelevant but I'll give you a few details anyway ... for the last time.

Helen Duncan materialised a deceased magician by the stage name of "The Great Lafayette" in a magician's club full of experts on fraudulent mediumship, none of them could work out how she did it and believed her mediumship to be genuine. In tests with a medium named Rita Goold the spirit of Helen Duncan has materialised and spoken to her daughter Gena.

Nina Kulagina demonstrated her various psychic talents including healing, medical vision and most famously psychokinesis to no less than 40 scientists in several repeated tests over a period of a decade or so. She was recruited by the soviet government to see if she could use her talents to help Nikita Khruschev. Scientists who tested her include LL Vasiliev, G Sergeyev, E Naumov, G Pratt, Ye Terletsky and Mr Blazek.

Julius Krmessky has shown to several scientists psychokinesis similar to that of Kulagina.

Rudi Schneider and DD Home demonstrated powerful physical mediumship to several scientists.

The Fox Sisters "founders of modern spiritualism" demonstrated their mediumship to several scientists. Sceptics say that they cracked their toes to produce spirit rappings and that Margaretta Fox confessed to this herself. What sceptics don't tell is the second half of the tale :

Margaretta admitted that her confession was a lie devised by herself and her youngest sister Kate to get revenge on their older sister Leah. Margaretta and Kate devised the spirit communication methods themselves, it was their older sister Leah however who took most of the credit and gained most respect as a medium because of her resources, money and older age, she then disowned her 2 youngest alcoholic sisters who'd brought her fame. Margaretta and Kate became jealous and this is why Margaretta made up a confession which she later retracted.

Come on, Jambo, where are the "official studies" you claim have been published? There's no mention of them here: just a few tall stories (with no mention of the researchers beyond the phrase "several scientists") and a claim that the Russian Government investigated someone's powers to see if they could be used in espionage. Governments are kind of notorious for not publishing any information about their possible espionage techniques.

 

[Throg]

Does anyone here know of any unbiased committees who investigate paranormal phenomena such as psychic ability.
Brain washing organisations which are closed minded and cynical who despise claimants such as JREF and CSICOP don't count, neither do gullible organisations.

May I suggest that what is important is not whether the organisations are biased (i.e. have an opinion one way or the other - who doesn't?) but the soundness of their investigative methods. That someone disagrees with me is not nearly so important as why.

The only thing sceptics have against the sisters is a faked confession of how she created bogus spirit rappings which was later retracted

That's a pretty big strike against the sisters. If they publicly lied once about how their results were obtained how can we ever trust what they say again? How do we even know that the original confession was the lie rather than the retraction?

 

[Open Mind]

Although I don't have any fixed opinion as to whether Helen Duncan had any genuine ability or was fraudulent , I wish to comment on some misleading debunking quoted in this topic ……. It all revolves rather much around a publicist called ‘Harry Price’

You do realize that this is a story - not an 'official investigation'. All links I can find are stories as well.

To be fair, it was more than a ‘story’, nor is it so easily dismissed as such. Magician William Goldston wrote the article defending Helen Duncan himself. …… Goldston's words are

‘........as far as I was concerned, purely in the nature of a test séance. I had enlisted with me as co-examiners Henry Rigoletto, Dr. A. E. Neale, and Dr. O. H. Bowen. All three are magicians of the widest experience.......’

So if Duncan was fraudulent, this unsophisticated woman tricked 4 accomplished magicians? (Goldston wrote many books on magic, founded Magicians Circle along with Houdini)
http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/experiments/materialisation/duncan.htm

It is also important to point out, that magician Will Goldston seems to have written the article in defense of Helen Duncan in response to the allegation made by amateur magician Harry Price investigation claiming she was ’ ......one of the cleverest frauds in the history of Spiritualism.......’ .

Goldston seems very aware of Price’s accusation made about one year earlier, when writing this. ....

' ....... Mrs. Duncan is said to possess a remarkable power of regurgitation; before a sitting she swallows many yards of tightly packed and specially prepared cheese cloth - and rubber gloves. (Note: Harry Price’s accusation) All this material she regurgitates from her stomach during a séance, persuading it, in some manner to simulate human shape. That, with further elaboration, constitutes the persecuting statement. ........

So Goldston statement above is disputing Price’s accusation .... he continues .......

Godlston says ' Now, there is not, so far as I am aware - and I am a magician of lifelong experience - any system of trickery which can achieve the astounding results which I witnessed that evening with Mrs. Duncan.
Nor am I aware of any system of ventriloquism or voice control which can so perfectly simulate the voices of eight different beings. After the sitting Mrs. Duncan repaired in my company to an adjoining room. There, with me, she drank two cups of coffee and ate two tea cakes.

Someone else quoted ……..

’ In the July 14, 1931, Morning Post, a long article was published on her exposure there and Harry Price branded her in a statement "as one of the cleverest frauds in the history of Spiritualism." A portion of her teleplasm was found to be composed of woodpulp and white of egg. Photographs taken during the séance disclosed India rubber gloves and rough portraits wrapped in cheesecloth. An X-ray examination revealed that Mrs. Duncan was possessed of a remarkable faculty of regurgitation and she merely swallowed the necessary paraphernalia before the séance.’

This sounds very conclusive .... but it is also inaccurate …… ’ An X-ray examination revealed that Mrs. Duncan was possessed of a remarkable faculty of regurgitation and she merely swallowed the necessary paraphernalia before the séance.’ .. Price admitted elsewhere this examination had failed to disclose anything, it was his theory, they didn't actually find anything in Duncan’s stomach during examinations. (Another trial was claimed where Duncan swallowed blue dye pills, didn't confirm Price's claim)

There is a problem too with skeptics quoting Harry Price as a trustworthy source for evidence of fraud. This is the same Harry Price who was accused of faking the ghosts of Borley Rectory for his publicity (poltergeist was throwing pebbles, Price had pebbles in his pocket), he also promoted a talking mongoose So why are skeptics quoting his opinion as trustworthy just because it suits their paradigm?

Several sceptics had problems with Harry Price, also the American Society of Psychical Research, didn’t even publish Prices conclusion on Duncan. Probably because they didn't trust Price. (Price was accused in a handkerchief incidence of trying to make psychic Rudi Schneider look fraudulent).

Duncan was arrested and prosecuted for fraud in Edinburgh in early 1933. One of the witnesses was assisted by Harry Price to give testimony

Duncan is arrested for fraud and jailed for fraud in 1940s. Police fail to capture evidence. At the trial over 40 witnesses give witnesses accounts of materializing dead people, relatives etc. and claim Duncan is genuine. Duncan is refused right to perform materialization or demonstration for jury. Harry Price’s early investigation/claim is used as evidence.

Duncan séance is raided again in 1950s, medium suffers injuries and dies weeks later. Again nothing found by police raid. This woman must have been a very fast swallower (If Price's claim was the right explanmation?)

So what is the best evidence against Duncan? Probably the photographs, ectoplasm photographs do not look convincing to me. But who took Duncan’s? Was it publicist Harry Price? I could be wrong but it seems the source may be from Harry Price’s book written against Duncan? (Note one photograph has Duncan wearing a ring, Duncan and other materialization mediums were not supposed to wear metal objects, removing them before seance .. why has she got one on in photo? Was Duncan talked into a fake publicity photograph?) Note: Publicist Harry Price was accused by witness of faking a poltergeist/brick incident at Borley Rectory.

(Another claim against Duncan involved piece of cloth captured from a Duncan seance in 1939 ...... however it is filed under 'allegedly' from Duncan seance.)

Does this prove Helen Duncan was genuine? Of course not... and the witnesses are too long gone to defend their claims ...... but it might be better if skeptics didn't automatically trust untrustworthy(?) sources just to debunk information .... if you trust publicist Harry Price, are you going to trust his opinion on the ghosts of Borley Rectory being genuine too?

 

[Zep]

Helen Duncan in action. This is the "proof" she supplied of her ability to materialise spirits in seances. Note the doorway jamb just behind the "spirit figure", where it is hardly possible that a wire to hold up the dummy could be put through.

Jambo, if you think this is in any way a "real" spirit materialisation by her then you need to up your meds. Seriously.

 

[Open Mind]

That is the photograph I was referring to, who took this photograph? Publicist Harry Price? Is the original source from Price's book on her? (I need to track down that book someday)

This photograph shows Duncan wearing a ring on her finger. If one does research into materialization mediums, Duncan and others didn't wear metal rings during materialization seances .... they claimed it caused burns .... photographs were supposed to cause burns, touching the mediums could cause burns .... the cabinet is missing ......in this photograph all the normal criteria is changed? Any chance this is publicity photograph she was talked into by someone who was promoting mediums? Price?
Or did she really do this alone? She pulled it out of her stomach and hung it up and no one noticed? I'd really like to know who took this photograph? In my opinion it might solve a puzzle.

Would this thing have fooled 4 magicians? Does this match any of the 40+ witness accounts at her trial ..... I think not. Also if this is a fake, how come they faked it so badly?

If this is genuine paranormal..... then it looks like the paranormal is trying to make it look fraudulent to outside observers ..... The paranormal makes the paranormal look fraudulent? Wait a minute! isn't that close to what 'The Trickster and the Paranormal' by magician George Hansen is heading ... the paranormal is often the trickster .. .. irrational but real .... or in the famous words of Sir William Crookes ‘ I didn’t say it was possible, I said it happened’ I don't think Mr Hansen would think this photo was genuine , but his book will challenge both skeptics and believers core beliefs ..... worth a read.