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OOS Collapse Propagation Model

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There was a very permissive environment within JREF that allowed these misrepresentations to flourish unchecked (for years).


You're the one misrepresenting your "work" as important.

Collapse progression never has been, nor ever will be, of any interest to any serious structural engineer. Collapse initiation is their holy grail cuz they KNOW that once any structure begins to initiate movement that is visible to the naked eye, that the structure is doomed.

Collapse progression and issues like crushup/down, ROOSD, etc are not of any interest to them UNLESS there exists a solid reason to engineer one that will resist collapse progression.

The mechanics of the collapse progression IS of interest to those in the CD industry however, cuz a better understanding of what happened could possibly lead to cheaper/easier demos and perhaps even using less explosives that have a potential to damage nearby buildings. I believe one of the papers you cite even say that.....
 
You're the one misrepresenting your "work" as important.

Collapse progression never has been, nor ever will be, of any interest to any serious structural engineer. Collapse initiation is their holy grail cuz they KNOW that once any structure begins to initiate movement that is visible to the naked eye, that the structure is doomed.

Collapse progression and issues like crushup/down, ROOSD, etc are not of any interest to them UNLESS there exists a solid reason to engineer one that will resist collapse progression.

The mechanics of the collapse progression IS of interest to those in the CD industry however, cuz a better understanding of what happened could possibly lead to cheaper/easier demos and perhaps even using less explosives that have a potential to damage nearby buildings. I believe one of the papers you cite even say that.....


The initiation IS the key here for all sorts of reasons. And it was a undoubtedly a progression of structural failures which led to the point where the structure remaining could not support the service loads and *gave way* and then the ROOSD process began.

My understanding is that the interesting thing about ROOSD is that it did not involve the failing or destruction or crushing or buckling or any columns. The columns came down because the ROOSD left them without lateral bracing which was the floor system. ROOSD consumed the floors and the columns toppled or self bucked from Euler forces.

So the macro picture the strength of the tower has nothing to do with its demise... but the *weakness* or the floor/bracing system. And perhaps other framing systems might have isolated local failures and they wouldn't have gone run away consuming the entire floor area.

The crush up crush down hardly matter. A mass which was unsupportable fell on the floor slabs and it was all over.
 
This is what physicist David Bohm referred to as 'sustained incoherence.'


When creating superficial one-liners and memes within this thread the regular JREF posters may want to coordinate the memes so as to not contradict one another.

Is the group going to go with the 'everybody knows the accepted explanation' meme or the 'how could the authors have known' meme?

You ask questions, but never respond to questions asked of you.

Please, since I went first:

Which academic journal that a doctoral student of civil engineering can be supposed to have on his radar has published an article that describes ROOSD?

In which journal have YOU published this mechanism?
 
Which academic journal that a doctoral student of civil engineering can be supposed to have on his radar has published an article that describes ROOSD?

In which journal have YOU published this mechanism?





According to a meme expressed on page 1 of this thread and revived in 2014, this collapse mode of WTC1 and 2 is 'common knowledge'.



This failure mode has been discussed for a very large period of time and it just a rehash of what everyone who wasn't delusional already knew.

The whole line of investigation is ridiculous. What unanswered question does this paper purport to examine? None. Existing, reliable, reviewed scientific literature covers it quite thoroughly. All the made-up acronyms and appeals for attention are no more than fatuous Truther narcissism.

Well, in this thread, on this forum, I get it, ozeco41 gets it, JSO gets it, DGM gets it, Newton's Bit gets it, rwguinn gets it, pgimeno gets it, Myriad gets it, Dave Rogers gets it and I believe beachnut gets it. Obviously FEMA gets it, and so does NIST.





It is documented in JEM that Thomas Eagar and Edward Musso didn't understand it nor did any peer reviewers at the time, nor many of the readers.


It is documented that neither Bazant nor David Benson understood it in 2007 and 2008. Members of this forum were able to freely misinterpret BV eq 12 and 17 and ignore direct quotes from BL and BLGB in order to ignore this contradiction. People still do, openly and freely, within this thread. Such behavior is encouraged here, and one of your moderators actively encourages it and participates himself (from 2010 to 2014).

Seffen didn't understand it.


It is documented in posts that you didn't understand it. Dave Rogers also didn't understand it as is documented in this thread.




I agree with you that given the actual state of the written record, it is verifiable that this information is not well known even among people that write about examples of progressive collapse as their PhD thesis or among JEM published authors on the subject. Anyone who puts in the effort can verify this for themselves.


But your fellow JREF posters seem to disagree with you. According to them, this collapse mode is well recognized and well documented within available literature and is even 'common knowledge.'

This is a meme that some of you have been trapped within for years. Many have creatively invented their own versions of BV, BL, and BLGB to conform to the meme. I.m not suggesting posters are aware that this happens, but it happens all the same.
 
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Tom,
Why do you suppose so many seemed to have missed the *obvious*? To some (many?) the ROOSD process seems to be indistinguishable from *global collapse* and the distinction is of no consequence. At the very least even if there are no code / engineering implications it seems from an intellectual honesty perspective an accurate description should be of interest to all.

I find the reaction to ROOSD or whatever name one gives to it... baffling.
 
With the gift of hindsight, what has been learned about structural vulnerabilities to these systems:


WorldTradeCenter11.jpg




We now know that at any time since 1970 accidental or intentional local detachment of only 2 floor slabs in only one portion of either of the buildings could have led to catastrophic failure of an entire building. This coud have happened even without the loss of a single column.


This unique architecture had an equally unique weakness.


Has this fact been recognized within available professional and academic literature on the subject? We can easily verify whether it has or hadn't simply by reviewing the literature published since the collapses.


.................................


Mathematical approach to the study of ROOSD propagation:


Step 1: GAIN AN OVERALL CONCEPTUAL AND VISUAL UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT ONE IS LOOKING AT

Step 2: RESEARCH AVAILABLE LITERATURE ON THE SUBJECT OF FLOORS IMPACTING FLOORS

Step 3: MEASURE THE COLLAPSE PROPAGATION RATE AS ACCURATELY AND COMPLETELY AS POSSIBLE

Step 4: EXAMINE A VARIETY OF PHYSICS-BASED MATHEMATICAL APPROACHES TO THE COLLAPSE OF STACKED SYSTEMS

Step 5: COMPARE MODELS IN STEP 4 TO INFORMATION IN STEPS 1 - 3 to see which models could match propagation behavior or teach something about it.




Step one done correctly will lead to a recognition of a ROOSD process. If it is not done correctly every subsequent step will general and vague (see Seffen and BV, BL, BLGB for examples) or skipped completely.


An intelligent researcher will then go to step 2. Has anyone here collected and reviewed the available material on progression mechanisms involving floors impacting floors? (I'm just joking. I'm quite sure nobody did.)



It is possible to see how well the actual WTC collapse propagation mechanism was recognized within the academic and engineering community simply by doing step 2.
 
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Anyone can verify that a number of papers were written after the WTC collapses on the subject of accessing buildings for progressive collapse potential. One such study in the form of a PhD thesis was cited earlier:

A Method to Assess the Progressive Collapse Vulnerability of Frame Structures
by Francesco Barni



Within the available literature, can anyone find studies on methods of accessing ROOSD vulnerability of existing structures? For example, is the architecture of the Sears Tower or the John Hancock building in Chicago ROOSD vulnerable? To what degree relative to other types of architecture?

Is there any systematic approach to the study of ROOSD vulnerability in existing structures within professional or academic literature?


This information can be discovered by doing step 2.
 
I see a pattern here.

Mathematical approach to the study of ROOSD propagation:


Step 1: GAIN AN OVERALL CONCEPTUAL AND VISUAL UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT ONE IS LOOKING AT

Step 2: RESEARCH AVAILABLE LITERATURE ON THE SUBJECT OF FLOORS IMPACTING FLOORS

Step 3: MEASURE THE COLLAPSE PROPAGATION RATE AS ACCURATELY AND COMPLETELY AS POSSIBLE

Step 4: EXAMINE A VARIETY OF PHYSICS-BASED MATHEMATICAL APPROACHES TO THE COLLAPSE OF STACKED SYSTEMS

Step 5: COMPARE MODELS IN STEP 4 TO INFORMATION IN STEPS 1 - 3 to see which models could match propagation behavior or teach something about it.
Can that prediction be tested?

Yes. Follow the 5 steps:

Mathematical approach to the study of ROOSD propagation:


Step 1: GAIN AN OVERALL CONCEPTUAL AND VISUAL UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT ONE IS LOOKING AT

Step 2: RESEARCH AVAILABLE LITERATURE ON THE SUBJECT OF FLOORS IMPACTING FLOORS

Step 3: MEASURE THE COLLAPSE PROPAGATION RATE AS ACCURATELY AND COMPLETELY AS POSSIBLE

Step 4: EXAMINE A VARIETY OF PHYSICS-BASED MATHEMATICAL APPROACHES TO THE COLLAPSE OF STACKED SYSTEMS

Step 5: COMPARE MODELS IN STEP 4 TO INFORMATION IN STEPS 1 - 3 to see which models could match propagation behavior or teach something about it.
Also, in sharp contrast to both Bazant and Seffen, I strongly recommend approaching the physics and mathematics of the WTC1 and 2 collapse propagations using these 5 steps in order:


Step 1: GAIN AN OVERALL CONCEPTUAL AND VISUAL UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT ONE IS LOOKING AT

Step 2: RESEARCH AVAILABLE LITERATURE ON THE SUBJECT OF FLOORS IMPACTING FLOORS

Step 3: MEASURE THE COLLAPSE PROPAGATION RATE AS ACCURATELY AND COMPLETELY AS POSSIBLE

Step 4: EXAMINE A VARIETY OF PHYSICS-BASED MATHEMATICAL APPROACHES TO THE COLLAPSE OF STACKED SYSTEMS

Step 5: COMPARE MODELS IN STEP 4 TO INFORMATION IN STEPS 1 - 3 to see which models could match propagation behavior or teach something about it.
The mathematical approach to the study of ROOSD propagation is given below as 5 clearly marked steps to be taken in order:


Step 1: GAIN AN OVERALL CONCEPTUAL AND VISUAL UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT ONE IS LOOKING AT

Step 2: RESEARCH AVAILABLE LITERATURE ON THE SUBJECT OF FLOORS IMPACTING FLOORS

Step 3: MEASURE THE COLLAPSE PROPAGATION RATE AS ACCURATELY AND COMPLETELY AS POSSIBLE

Step 4: EXAMINE A VARIETY OF PHYSICS-BASED MATHEMATICAL APPROACHES TO THE COLLAPSE OF STACKED SYSTEMS

Step 5: COMPARE MODELS IN STEP 4 TO INFORMATION IN STEPS 1 - 3 to see which models could match propagation behavior or teach something about it.
Mathematical approach to the study of ROOSD propagation:


Step 1: GAIN AN OVERALL CONCEPTUAL AND VISUAL UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT ONE IS LOOKING AT

Step 2: RESEARCH AVAILABLE LITERATURE ON THE SUBJECT OF FLOORS IMPACTING FLOORS

Step 3: MEASURE THE COLLAPSE PROPAGATION RATE AS ACCURATELY AND COMPLETELY AS POSSIBLE

Step 4: EXAMINE A VARIETY OF PHYSICS-BASED MATHEMATICAL APPROACHES TO THE COLLAPSE OF STACKED SYSTEMS

Step 5: COMPARE MODELS IN STEP 4 TO INFORMATION IN STEPS 1 - 3 to see which models could match propagation behavior or teach something about it.
And one that puts M_T dangerously close to violating Rule 6.
 
With the gift of hindsight, what has been learned about structural vulnerabilities to these systems: ...

Don't let terrorists fly.
Keep cockpits locked, secure.
Energy increases with the square of the velocity.
Let Balsamo build all aircraft, they would fall apart over Vmo, the Balsamo Aircraft Company; we build them to fall apart at the red-line, not one knot over ...
Increase the thickness of steel on the Shell to a half inch and stop 600 mph crashes.


We now know that at any time since 1970 accidental or intentional local detachment of only 2 floor slabs in only one portion of either of the buildings could have led to catastrophic failure of an entire building. This coud have happened even without the loss of a single column.
How would a floor become detached? Give exact details.

Prove it, show the math.
 
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We now know that at any time since 1970 accidental or intentional local detachment of only 2 floor slabs in only one portion of either of the buildings could have led to catastrophic failure of an entire building. This coud have happened even without the loss of a single column.
What is your estimate of the probability of such a detachment occurring?

In addition, major design changes came around due to the Northridge earthquake, with regard to moment framing. How do you think that applies to future building considerations with regard to the survivability concerns you have?

For full credit, show your math.
 
....... the walls of the tower were blown out with enough initiating force so that the tower appeared to unpeel like a banana.

Do you know - I've been saying something similar for the last thirteen years - well, my particular allusion is to a doughnut sliding down a broom handle - and have been greeted by some very strange looks from some listeners - you'd be forgiven in thinking that me and them had watched a different event and that it could not be revisited in stopframe video ad nauseum!

I agree with you that there were massive wind forces generated in the collapses and it's these that are responsible for the infamous "squibs! adhered to by Truthers - the windows were very strong as you suggest and openings that did spout dust either had weaker seals or had been knocked out - most stayed intact until the collapsing wave reached them.

Of course, as others quote in this thread - it's the INITIAL failure that's of main engineering interest but you're not going very far with that one to the average Joe Public who likes to feel safe while perched on 4" of concrete and crinkly tin a thousand feet in the sky!

In like manner, I'm willing to bet that despite all the academic prowess shown in these threads ( mainly to self agrandise the posters!) would be completely lost on the average steelfixer - let alone a New York steelfixer!!! I'd have loved to have heard what they had to say about fixing damn great 60ft floor trusses with two bolts each end into a 3/8" thick tab 6" wide - a certain phrase from John McEnroe comes to mind.
 
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Cool story, bro. Now if you only had expertise and figures to back up those gut feelings, you'd be on the way to being a modern engineer...

The "fragile deck" stuff really does boggle my mind.

My steel buildings typically have a 2" or 3" composite steel deck with 2" or 3" of normal weight concrete on top of them. Cutting through them is so common that we have standard details for it. Small holes we don't care about, holes that catch more than one flute need angles around the perimeter (or channels if it's a giant hole).

My concrete buildings have 12" or 14" thick normal weight flat plate slabs (I know it's inefficient, but it was an architectural requirement). Cutting through them requires prior approval from myself or one of the other engineers. If a bar is cut, the contractor has to reinforce the slab with carbon fiber. It's not cheap.

I'm much more concerned about the flooring in the concrete building than the steel building. Global pancake collapse due to punching shear failures at the columns is a common nightmare for me.
 
Of course, as others quote in this thread - it's the INITIAL failure that's of main engineering interest but you're not going very far with that one to the average Joe Public who likes to feel safe while perched on 4" of concrete and crinkly tin a thousand feet in the sky!

I asked you before but you didn't answer (sorry if I did miss it). What is your problem with the towers floor system(you have actually misrepresented it)? It was not up to the extraordinary conditions of 9/11 but, why should it have been?
 
Do you know - I've been saying something similar for the last thirteen years - well, my particular allusion is to a doughnut sliding down a broom handle - and have been greeted by some very strange looks from some listeners - you'd be forgiven in thinking that me and them had watched a different event and that it could not be revisited in stopframe video ad nauseum!

I agree with you that there were massive wind forces generated in the collapses and it's these that are responsible for the infamous "squibs! adhered to by Truthers - the windows were very strong as you suggest and openings that did spout dust either had weaker seals or had been knocked out - most stayed intact until the collapsing wave reached them.

Of course, as others quote in this thread - it's the INITIAL failure that's of main engineering interest but you're not going very far with that one to the average Joe Public who likes to feel safe while perched on 4" of concrete and crinkly tin a thousand feet in the sky!

In like manner, I'm willing to bet that despite all the academic prowess shown in these threads ( mainly to self agrandise the posters!) would be completely lost on the average steelfixer - let alone a New York steelfixer!!! I'd have loved to have heard what they had to say about fixing damn great 60ft floor trusses with two bolts each end into a 3/8" thick tab 6" wide - a certain phrase from John McEnroe comes to mind.

Unfeeling like a banana is the opposite of donuts and broom handles. I am sure there is a better food analogy somewhere. And it's not pizza boxes.

The initial collapse is easy. Every floor truss is made from bar joists and they are impossible to fire protect every bar. Any defect turns in any bar turns the joint into a mechanism and the fire is hot enough to quickly get lots of bars failing. There are many pics around showing damage to the fire protection before 9/11.

That's why there will never be another tall building built with bar joist floors

My view is that there would be a good chance that WTC towers would have survived if they had used normal beams and better joints
 
Cool story, bro. Now if you only had expertise and figures to back up those gut feelings, you'd be on the way to being a modern engineer...

Some of us here are engineers and have experience. Although not many from the truth movement
 
A short history and description of the WTC towers from the website openbuildings.com is linked here.




Some quotes:

"The structural engineering firm Worthington, Skilling, Helle & Jackson worked to implement Yamasaki's design, developing the tube-frame structural system used in the twin towers. The Port Authority's Engineering Department served as foundation engineers, Joseph R. Loring & Associates as electrical engineers, and Jaros, Baum & Bolles as mechanical engineers. Tishman Realty & Construction Company was the general contractor on the World Trade Center project. Guy F. Tozzoli, director of the World Trade Department at the Port Authority, and Rino M. Monti, the Port Authority's Chief Engineer, oversaw the project. As an interstate agency, the Port Authority was not subject to local laws and regulations of the City of New York including building codes. Nonetheless, the structural engineers of the World Trade Center ended up following draft versions of the new 1968 building codes. The tube-frame design, earlier introduced by Fazlur Khan, was a new approach which allowed open floor plans rather than columns distributed throughout the interior to support building loads as had traditionally been done."


This new, innovative approach allowed more total square feet of usable office space than the traditional designs. In a further effort to maximize usable office space an innovative elevator layout was introduced:


"A major limiting factor in building height is the issue of elevators; the taller the building, the more elevators are needed to service the building, requiring more space-consuming elevator banks. Yamasaki and the engineers decided to use a new system with sky lobbies; floors where people could switch from a large-capacity express elevator which serves the sky lobbies, to a local elevator that goes to each floor in a section. This allowed the local elevators to be stacked within the same elevator shaft. Located on the 44th and 78th floors of each tower, the sky lobbies enabled the elevators to be used efficiently, increasing the amount of usable space on each floor from 62 to 75 percent by reducing the number of required elevator shafts. Altogether, the World Trade Center had 95 express and local elevators. This system was inspired by the New York City Subway system whose lines include local stations where local trains stop and express stations where all trains stop."


"The buildings were designed with narrow office windows 18 inches (46 cm) wide, which reflected Yamasaki's fear of heights as well as his desire to make building occupants feel secure. Yamasaki's design included building facades sheathed in aluminum-alloy. The World Trade Center was one of the most striking American implementations of the architectural ethic of Le Corbusier and it was the seminal expression of Yamasaki's gothic modernist tendencies."






Objections and Criticisms to the WTC Design


There were also objections to the design, that the designs were ugly and the building looked like 'big filing cabinets'. There was criticism they were unnecessarily gigantic. That they were 'purposeless giantism' or an example of 'technological exhibitionism':


"The World Trade Center design brought criticism of its aesthetics from the American Institute of Architects and other groups. Lewis Mumford, author of The City in History and other works on urban planning, criticized the project and described it and other new skyscrapers as "just glass-and-metal filing cabinets". The twin towers' narrow office windows, only 18 inches (46 cm) wide, were disliked by many for impairing the view from the buildings.

The trade center's "superblock", replacing a more traditional, dense neighborhood, was regarded by some critics as an inhospitable environment that disrupted the complicated traffic network typical of Manhattan. For example, in his book The Pentagon of Power, Lewis Mumford denounced the center as an "example of the purposeless giantism and technological exhibitionism that are now eviscerating the living tissue of every great city."




Actually, Lewis Mumford referred to them in his 1970 book Pentagon of Power as en excellent modern example of a 'homage to giantism'. This means that there is a decision to make them big just to show that it is possible, like showing off the most modern technology of the day just to show it off.


This is a direct quote from the book:

"The Port Authority, a quasi-governmental corporation, was in origin a happy political invention, first installed in London; but unfortunately its social functions subordinated to pecuniary motivations: and its executives have conceived it their duty to funnel more motor traffic into the city, through new bridges and tunnels, than its streets and parking lots can handle - while contributing to the lapse of a more adequate system of public transportation that included railroad, subway, and ferry. This policy has resulted in mounting traffic congestion, economic waste, and human deterioration - though with a constant rise in land values and speculative profits. These baneful results were anticipated and and graphically depicted by Clarence S. Stein, then Chairman of the New York State Housing and Regional Planning commision, in his article on 'Dinosaur Cities' in the 'Survey Graphic,' May 1925. Stein there described the breakdowns - already quite visible - resulting from housing congestion, water shortage, sewer pollution, street clogging, traffic jams, and municipal bankruptcy. But Dinosaurs were handicapped by insufficient brains, and the World Trade Center is only another Dinosaur."


Ouch!



////////////////////////



So the history of the WTC towers is a complex one even before construction began. The tube design was an effort to maximize usable office space. This design was considered new and innovative.

In short, it was an experiment.

And not everyone agreed with the design or the mere size of this gigantic pair of structures.


With the gift of hindsight and accurate, detailed collapse mappings there is another chapter to be added to the complete history of these innovative and gigantic experimental towers. The decision to maximize usable office space is what ultimately led to unique and distinctive mode by which they collapsed. The buildings were an experiment and the results of that experiment can now be analyzed in an open and critical way.

Or at least they should. Were these buildings actually dinosaurs as Lewis Mumford observed in 1970? Was the large. stacked open office system a failed experiment?
 
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