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OOS Collapse Propagation Model

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M_T is posting comments from folks who haven't participated in the JREF forum for years, because ___________?

He posts very intelligent comments by R.Mackey, Dave Rogers and Myriad, in the hopes that we'll suddenly become stupid, I guess...

What gets me the most is that he says something like this "these participating posters are incapable of perceiving that there is any contradiction or inconsistency between BV, BL, and BLGB (2007-2008) and the OOS collapse progression model." immediately after quoting people who are explaining the differences between BZ, BLGB and his model.
 
Comments by Dave Rogers and Myriad in the first 8 pages of this thread............

In yet another example, these participating posters are incapable of perceiving that there is any contradiction or inconsistency between BV, BL, and BLGB (2007-2008) and the OOS collapse progression model.

No one cares about your pseudopsych musings!

Do you have a discussion about the collapses in mind any time soon?
 
If MT weren't so bloody boring, this would be comedy gold.
Dave, In BL, can you explain why Dr Bazant insists that crush down must be complete before crush up occurs. Does he mean this literally?

R Mackey seems to be saying he doesn't mean this to apply to WTC1 literally.

What do you think?
.

Bazant showed that initial crush-up would arrest very quickly, and that in effect the upper block would ride down on the intervening rubble block as it destroyed the lower structure. This is for the specific case of a perfectly level collapse with axial column-on-column impacts of a previously undamaged structure, which is the limiting case Bazant used to determine whether it was possible for the structure to resist collapse.



That's correct. As everyone keeps pointing out ad nauseam, Bazant is considering the limiting hypothetical case in which the structure is best able to resist collapse, and finding that it cannot.

when Bazant makes the following statement, what does he mean:

"So it must be concluded that the simplifying hypothesis of
one-way crushing (i.e., of absence of simultaneous crush-up),
made in the original paper, was perfectly justified and caused
only an imperceptible difference in the results. The crush-up
simultaneous with the crush down is found to have advanced
into the overlying story by only 37 mm for the North Tower
and 26 mm for the South Tower. This means that the initial
crush-up phase terminates when the axial displacement of
columns is only about 10 times larger than their maximum
elastic deformation. Hence, simplifying the analysis by neglecting
the initial two-way crushing phase was correct and
accurate."

Is he applying this to WTC1, or to just a hypothetical extreme case?

Originally Posted by Myriad


He is applying it to his model of a WTC tower, which incorporates best-case assumptions for the possibility of collapse arrest. That he is analyzing a model is indicated by the methodology used -- which is performing mathematics on the model, as opposed to, say, running up and down the tower with a tape measure as it was collapsing.

MT writes:
participating posters are incapable of perceiving that there is any contradiction or inconsistency between BV, BL, and BLGB (2007-2008) and the OOS collapse progression model.

Its quite obvious who in this thread does not understand what is being said to them.

In the posts MT quotes its quite obvious that the posters see the Bazant papers as simplifying cases designed to test a specific collapse limiting case.

They say little to nothing regarding actual collapse modes nor does Bazant have in mind to explain what did happen.

Well, in this thread, on this forum, I get it, ozeco41 gets it, JSO gets it, DGM gets it, Newton's Bit gets it, rwguinn gets it, pgimeno gets it, Myriad gets it, Dave Rogers gets it and I believe beachnut gets it. Obviously FEMA gets it, and so does NIST.

Major Tom, when will you be moving the discussion to the next phase you mentioned before, how your 'mappings' can be used in discussing the possibility of CD ???
 
Myriad said:
I [referred to] the paper that contains the answer to the question you asked regarding whether Bazant intended the assumptions made in his collapse model of the WTC towers to represent a limiting best (most favorable to collapse arrest) case. In the paper in which he introduced that model and first applied it to the WTC collapses, he clearly stated that it was (using the phrase "most optimistic.") That paper is cited in "BV" so presumably Bazant still stands by its claims; nor does he need to repeat that information in "BV," having cited it.


Major_Tom is still having trouble with this clear simple point? Sheesh.
 
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If MT weren't so bloody boring, this would be comedy gold.

Major Tom, when will you be moving the discussion to the next phase you mentioned before, how your 'mappings' can be used in discussing the possibility of CD ???

I am curious... why do JREFers feel it is so important for Tom to discuss CD in the pre ROOSD phase of the collapse?

I don't see evidence of CD... loud noises and so forth but I can conceive that explosives could turn the top parts into a ROOSD driving mass. Does anyone even doubt that?

As an aside... I met a FDNY guy yesterday by accident when I was walking my dog and I asked him if he was with FDNY during 911. He told me he was working now in Riverdale, Bronx but had been in Manhattan. Well what do you know.... he was at the WTC on 9/11 and 2WTC fell down on him and his fellow firefighters from his company. His name is Fernando and he showed me some pics from 9/11 with him in them... head bandaged. I asked him what he experienced and heard and I was particularly interested in explosion sounds. He said when it went he heard what he described as the sound of the floor slabs dropping and the crashing boom or whatever the sound was took on an increasing rate... as we would expect from a gravity driven floor collapse. He was pretty young at the time and so had nothing to refer to with his observations. He did mention I believe the lights went out before the thing came crashing down and the ensuring darkness down where he was was very difficult... but they had one flashlight and actually saw some sunlight and were able to crawl to safety... his mouth was full of dust and so forth and he could hardly breath.

Fernando is not one of the fire fighters who heard "explosive" sounds...

He did say that he heard that firefighters heard creaking sounds in 7WTC and they were told to get out. He was injured and long gone from the site when 7 went down.
 
I am curious... why do JREFers feel it is so important for Tom to discuss CD in the pre ROOSD phase of the collapse?

Because it's the 9/11 CT forum.

If he wants to discuss the precise nature of the collapse post an entirely natural (caused purely by impact damage + fire) collapse initiation then he should be over in the Science forum.
 
Its quite obvious who in this thread does not understand what is being said to them.

In the posts MT quotes its quite obvious that the posters see the Bazant papers as simplifying cases designed to test a specific collapse limiting case.

They say little to nothing regarding actual collapse modes nor does Bazant have in mind to explain what did happen.

Well, in this thread, on this forum, I get it....[/B]


Just to be clear, you, like R Mackey, Myriad, Newton's Bit, and Dave Rogers are writing about BV, BL and BLGB, published in 2007 and 2008, is that true?
 
I am curious... why do JREFers feel it is so important for Tom to discuss CD in the pre ROOSD phase of the collapse?

I don't see evidence of CD... loud noises and so forth but I can conceive that explosives could turn the top parts into a ROOSD driving mass. Does anyone even doubt that?
.

I too see no evidence of CD.
That said, this is the 9/11 conspiracies subforum. This is the place where CD hypotheses are to be aired.
M_T says he has something that can be discussed along that vein. Therefore I would like it if he quit his ego trip trying to convince everyone else that they are all stupid and only he truly understands the collapse, and move on.

So far few people have any issue with the idea of ROOSD, whether its called that or something else. Seems M_T is having a very difficult taking "yes" for an answer.
 
Just to be clear, you, like R Mackey, Myriad, Newton's Bit, and Dave Rogers are writing about BV, BL and BLGB, published in 2007 and 2008, is that true?
How many people do you know with the last name of "Bazant"?

People agree that Bazant was not modeling what-really-happened and was instead modeling limiting cases. What possible quibble do you have with that? Do you suppose that Bazant was modeling what-really-happened? If so then you are what is known as wrong. We can discuss that if you wish.

Yes the various papers model different limiting cases and thus if one were to presuppose that they are supposed to be what-really-happened, then they would be contradictory BUT THEY DON'T DO THAT!

Jeebus-H-Kristoes, drop it already. People agree that the progressive collapse was due to internal floor failures creating conditions which then destroyed the columns. If it strokes your ego to require people to refer to this as ROOSD then ok, its ROOSD. Ya got me onside. What's next?


Move on.

You said something about CD?
 
Thanks for clarifying that.

A few pages ago I asked these questions to only a few specific people:

Beachnut, I'd appreciate your input on issues with the OOS propagation model also and its relationship with Bazant's papers on the WTC collapses from 2007 onward.


TFK, could you please comment on how you understand the relationship between the OOS propagation model and the Bazant papers on the WTC collapses from 2007 onward? Can you elaborate on the mistakes you have spotted in the OOS model?


Newton's Bit, following up on your comments in the first few pages of this thread, could you please explain the relation between the crush down, then crush up descriptions by Bazant in his papers on the WTC collapses from 2007 onward and the progression mechanism described in the OOS model?


I received an answer not just from them but from other participating JREF regulars. Among the posters only TFK (and possibly Ozeco) seemed to recognize that there is an incompatibility between Bazant statements in those papers and the OOS model.


From the comments there seems to be nobody else among regular JREF participants that recognizes any incompatibility between statements made by Bazant in those papers and David Benson, a co-author of BLGB, and the OOS propagation model. Just to verify this I'll extend the same question to anyone that wishes to answer.






Is there anyone here besides TFK and possibly Ozeco that sees any incompatibility between statements made in BV, BL and BLGB and the OOS propagation model?


Is there anyone here that can see any incompatibility between statements made by David Benson reproduced in a previous post and the OOS propagation model?
 
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Thanks for clarifying that.

A few pages ago I asked these questions to only a few specific people:




I received an answer not just from them but from other participating JREF regulars. Among the posters only TFK (and possibly Ozeco) seemed to recognize that there is an incompatibility between Bazant statements in those papers and the OOS model.


From the comments there seems to be nobody else among regular JREF participants that recognizes any incompatibility between statements made by Bazant in those papers and David Benson, a co-author of BLGB, and the OOS propagation model. Just to verify this I'll extend the same question to anyone that wishes to answer.






Is there anyone here besides TFK and possibly Ozeco that sees any incompatibility between statements made in BV, BL and BLGB and the OOS propagation model?


Is there anyone here that can see any incompatibility between statements made by David Benson reproduced in a previous post and the OOS propagation model?
You are obviously ignoring the fact that everyone except yourself and JSanderO seem to recognize that there was never any intent by "BV, BL and BLGB" to do anything other than envelope the problem, setting limits on the possible, and not simulate the actuality. This is a fact which is increasingly obvious to anyone with the reading comprehension of a 2nd grader in Mississippi.
**** or get off the pot, dude.
 
You are obviously ignoring the fact that everyone except yourself and JSanderO seem to recognize that there was never any intent by "BV, BL and BLGB" to do anything other than envelope the problem, setting limits on the possible, and not simulate the actuality. This is a fact which is increasingly obvious to anyone with the reading comprehension of a 2nd grader in Mississippi.
**** or get off the pot, dude.

Meaning to you there is no incompatibility between BV, BL and BLGB and the OOS model. Correct?
 
Meaning to you there is no incompatibility between BV, BL and BLGB and the OOS model. Correct?

Wat? What exactly do you mean by incompatibility? Because the way you're using it seems to be the exact opposite than the commonly held definition.
 
I'll take that as a yes.

Can anyone here see incompatibility issues between BV, BL, and BLGB and the OOS model?
 
I'll take that as a yes.

Can anyone here see incompatibility issues between BV, BL, and BLGB and the OOS model?

Yes, as mentioned before, Bazant' papers are limiting cases and the OOS model attempts to more exactly model behavior. Don't you see that incompatibility? If not, please explicitly state how they may be directly compared. Better yet, explain why the comparison matters.
 
Just to be clear, you, like R Mackey, Myriad, Newton's Bit, and Dave Rogers are writing about BV, BL and BLGB, published in 2007 and 2008, is that true?


I for one am not writing (present tense) about any of those things. I did so years ago; it's no longer relevant. The ship has sailed, reached port, sailed again, reached a different port, sailed, made a thousand more ocean crossings, been de-commissioned, and broken up for scrap.

Just for some historical perspective, though, I recall only sporadic discussion of any specific mechanism of collapse progression, in terms of what members or connections failed first at each floor, prior to about 2007. There was no argument going on between "column-firsters" and "floor-firsters" or anything remotely resembling that. The argument was between conspiracy skeptics and the prevailing claim by truthers that progressive collapse of the towers would have arrested part way down without the involvement of some additional unreported sabotage of the structure (usually, demolition charges but other methods of weakening the structure were proposed) making the lack of any such arrest proof of said sabotage. The floor truss to column connections were occasionally mentioned as a likely point of failure. However, the emphasis was on proving that arrest was impossible, and doing so requires that even the best case for arrest fails. That best case involved the static and dynamic loads from the upper structure somehow directly transferring to intact columns below, which process, unlikely as it always seemed, was either explicitly claimed or tacitly assumed (e.g. by Szamboti's "missing jolt" claim) in a number of truther publications.

In 2007, NIST published the first "supplemental FAQ" to NCSTAR (which is archived here). The first item in that document offered a concise argument against collapse arrest that was completely independent of Bazant's, disregarding the energy balance of column buckling and focusing instead on floor loading from collapsing or collapsed structure versus floor load capacity. Note that by doing so, NIST's answer also disregarded the possibility of falling loads bearing directly on intact column ends below without loading any floors. That brought floor failure more prominently into the discussion.

The NIST FAQ's argument against collapse arrest (impossible because no floor can bear the load of the rubble from above) does not explicitly describe a complete progressive collapse scenario of floors progressively shattering or shearing off leaving columns unbraced to fail a bit later. But it very clearly implies one. If the collapse can't arrest because the floors would shatter or shear off under the load, the possibility that the floors did shatter or shear off under the load follows practically automatically. That possibility had been discussed earlier, but as I said, the NIST FAQ brought it more into the discussion, often when truthers objected to because it disregarded column-end impacts. (By contrast, it was obvious from the start that Bazant's best-case collapse arrest mechanism of every column segment folding into thirds with 180-degree bends never actually happened; any of thousands of photographs of the rubble make that clear.)

Keep in mind that many truthers' arguments were still based on describing the collapse as an impact between two large sturdy structures, the "upper block" and the "lower block," somewhat like a vehicle collision. Bazant's model still represents a good argument that, even if that were the case, collapse would not arrest. The NIST FAQ argument, and the scenario it implies, is more realistic but less airtight as an argument against an expectation of collapse arrest.

My own thinking about actual collapse progression mechanisms, as of a year before the start of this thread, is indicated by my proposed intermediate-scale physical model of progressive collapse. That model was explicitly designed to collapse by severing of floor-to-column connections from the load or impact of upper floors. It's those floor-to-column connections whose strength would have to be calibrated, as described and illustrated in the design, to create the demonstrated effect. The columns in that model design at that scale, or any realistic-looking columns at that scale, would not be expected to break at all, which is why continuous columns weren't used for the model (since the terms of the challenge required the entire structure to collapse to the ground). It is, in short, a design for a physical model of runaway floor-tray destruction by progressive severing of floor-to-column connections.

Somehow, I managed to come up with that design a year prior to the OP of this thread which supposedly enlightened us all about that possibility.

Given the above-linked NIST (2007) and Myriad (2009), which are only the easiest for me to find of numerous other examples, I don't think M_T's claims to priority for the OOS model (except for the name), or his insinuations that skeptics were blindly adhering to the wrong model prior to that, hold any water at all.
 
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