One possible way to end Affirmative Action?

[c0rbin]

Spin, corbin, spin.

When you say that, GP, I get an image of Darth Maul putting his fingers in his ears and shouting: "BLAH BLAH BLAH--African slavery in America is a conspiracy started by blacks so they can guilt white women into sexual relations!"

Come on, man. How would you feel if your dad had to step and shuffle everytime he crossed paths with a black man? What would it do to you to watch your father do something so degrading?

 

[Ed]

Malichi:

"This is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard, and immediately places you in the "not and intellectual" category."


Irony meter approaching overload.

 

[Genghis Pwn]

Here's a precis of why people attack "The Bell Curve"; it's junk science.

There is no god damn "junk science" required to add up IQ scores. All you need is a piece of paper and a calculator. Lol at this denial that you seem to be in.

c0rbin I would have felt horrible, been horrified. I condemn racism in all its forms. I applaud all efforts to end racism and promote friendship and cooperation amoung all people around the world. I do not think using race to award privelages to one race at the expense of others is the right way to bring blacks up and improve the United States of America, though.

 

[hammegk]

Just to clarify--do you really think genetic inferiority is a viable explanation of Black socio-economic failure?

Only if you examine available psychometric data. Otherwise, of course not.

 

[BillyTK]

There is no god damn "junk science" required to add up IQ scores. All you need is a piece of paper and a calculator. Lol at this denial that you seem to be in.

LOL--a piece of paper and a calculator? So that's where Herrnstein and Murray went wrong!

 

[BillyTK]

Only if you examine available psychometric data. Otherwise, of course not.

Of course, you mean "only if you examine available psychometric data which supports the contention that genetic inferiority is a viable explanation of Black socio-economic failure and ignore all the other factors which might explain such. Otherwise, of course not".

 

[hammegk]

Of course, you mean "only if you examine available psychometric data which supports the contention that genetic inferiority is a viable explanation of Black socio-economic failure and ignore all the other factors which might explain such.

Actually, I do mean all available. You have a citation you'd care to share of ANY study that does not offer that as a reasonable conclusion? LOL. Mismeasure of Man, perhaps?

 

[c0rbin]

c0rbin I would have felt horrible, benn horrified. I condemn racism in all its forms. I applaud all efforts to end racism and promote friendship and cooperation amoung all people around the world. I do not think using race to award privelages to one race at the expense of others is the right way to bring blacks up and improve the United States of America, though.

Okay. How are whites in america disadvantaged through AA?

 

[Genghis Pwn]

Okay. How are whites in america disadvantaged through AA?

Because if they are qualified to go to Harvard they can can be rejected because a slot needs to be open for a less-qualified black person.

 

[Malachi151]

Now to finish what I was saying. Of course the points I have made so far have still not been addressed, but I'll go on anyway.

Okay, from what I know the Bell Curve states that there is only a slight difference between blacks and whites anyway. Even if you want to assume that it is correct, which I have no problem with, the question becomes: is that slight difference representative of the socio-economic differences in America?

If the difference in IQ between blacks and whites as groups is about 2% yet the economic differences are 20% don't you see that that is still a problem? Of course it is.

Now, let's just still assume that there is a difference intelligence wise between the two groups. As I have already stated studies have shown that the lower a person's IQ the less economic mobility they have.

That means if you have a large population of uneducated poor unintelligent people they will remain poor and uneducated unless you do SOMETHING to try and help them.

Now, as for IQ you too have to understand that as long as someone has an IQ over 90 they should have no problems with becoming educated and being productive.

We aren't talking about sending morons to school here, we are generally talking about blacks with IQs over 100.

Again, in order to make your argument viable you have to show that IQ is the ONLY limiting factor for economic disparity between blacks and whites. If you can't show that IQ is the only factor then you have no argument.

In addition, as for observations about black intellectuals you have yet to show what you even consider an intellectual, and you have yet to show that your ignorance of black culture is not the reason why you are unaware of such people, you have yet to show that you are not more familiar with white intellectuals because you are a part of white culture, etc.

You want to know a major reason why you are unaware of many black intellectuals? Because many of them are anti-establishment. First of all a large number of intellectuals are anti-establishment, but especially black intellectuals, because they are discriminated against and they are not part of the establishment so they have no interest in the establishment, thus these people are got embraced by society. You don't see black intellectuals on TV for the same reason you don't see other real liberals on TV, the establishment is afraid of real liberals, which many black intellectuals are.

How much do you know about the history of the Black Panthers? Let me guess, nothing except a few stereotypes. The Black Panthers were a groups of well educated black intellectuals, of course demonized and dismissed because they were anti-establishment.

Your own ignorance and lack of understanding of sociology is why you can't understand the issues at hand here.

What I find so amazing is the total lack of knowledge of the degree to which blacks have been disadvantaged in America. 130 years ago 99% of blacks in the South, which is where the largest population of backs are, and were slaves with zero education and zero rights and zero property.

Whites never had that situation, even immigrants lived better than that where they were from and they had a culture they were coming from. These people's sense of culture was totally destroyed. Since that time, up until about 40 years ago they were still kept in poverty as a group and given no economic or social opportunity, so of course as a group they would suffer problems. Many blacks during the early 1900s were run out of business and run out of town when they did try to become successful. In fact a study of black business in America from the 1900s up shows that blacks have been very progressive and successful in business, BUT in most cases they were oppressed by whites run out of business by white businesses teaming up against them, stealing their ideas and then patenting them because the blacks were not savvy on legalities, running black business out of town, etc. A lot of this goes into the study of the role of blacks in prostitution because successful black businessmen had no opportunity in legal business because of the reasons I said so they had to resort to illegal business where whites could not effect them. Its actually a fascinating history.

It all goes back to the same old thing with all issues with "right-wingers", you use your own ignorance to support your ideas. You know nothing, so you just draw conclusions our of stupidity.

 

[Malachi151]

Also, do a comparison between blacks in Europe, where they are not the decendants of a massive slavery and have not be descriminated against as much, and American blacks.

 

[c0rbin]

Because if they are qualified to go to Harvard they can can be rejected because a slot needs to be open for a less-qualified black person.

Thousands of qualified people don't get admitted to Harvard. Usually those people have back-up plans with other presitigous universities.

How has the white man been disadvantaged here?

 

[bpesta22]

Okay, from what I know the Bell Curve states that there is only a slight difference between blacks and whites anyway. ...
If the difference in IQ between blacks and whites as groups is about 2% yet the economic differences are 20% don't you see that that is still a problem? Of course it is.

Malachi.

You should search for the threads where we previously debated all this.

The black white difference on IQ tests is 15 points-- about 1 SD, which puts the effect size at 1.0.

As posted earlier, here are some guidelines from the well-respected statistician (who doesn't publish in this area, and gives these estimates as guidelines for science in general), Cohen:

Effect sizes of .2 are considered small, .4 medium and .6 large.

1.0-- the black white difference-- is so large, Cohen has no name for it.

IIRC, only 14% of blacks score average on an IQ test, with only 3% scoring one SD above.

The differences are not trivial, and to the extent that IQ correlates with important life outcomes (which it does-- see previous threads) the group difference here is a likely (but not sole) explanation for why blacks do so poorly when it comes to things like education, ses, etc.

The data are the data.

No non-ignorant person can disupute the fact that: (1) IQ predicts important life outcomes, (2) IQ tests are neither culturally nor legally biased, (3) the 15 point race difference mentioned above is real (i.e., not due to test bias).

The only thing under debate is why.

B

 

[Dancing David]

I dispute the evidence that IQ tests are related to life outcomes is based upon the same things that bias the test in the first place.

That and a gross misunderstanding of what statistical coorelation means or what it represents.

I guess that makes me ignorant, some sceptics forum! IQ is BOGUS!

 

[c0rbin]

Here is a nice little history of AA.

Affirmative action, the set of public policies and initiatives designed to help eliminate past and present discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin, is under attack.

• Originally, civil rights programs were enacted to help African Americans become full citizens of the United States. The Thirteenth Amendment to the Constitution made slavery illegal; the Fourteenth Amendment guarantees equal protection under the law; the Fifteenth Amendment forbids racial discrimination in access to voting. The 1866 Civil Rights Act guarantees every citizen "the same right to make and enforce contracts ... as is enjoyed by white citizens ... "
• In 1896, the Supreme Court's decision in Plessy v. Ferguson upheld a "separate, but equal" doctrine that proved to be anything but equal for African Americans. The decision marked the end of the post-Civil War reconstruction era as Jim Crow laws spread across the South.
• In 1941, President Franklin D. Roosevelt signed Executive Order 8802 which outlawed segregationist hiring policies by defense-related industries which held federal contracts. Roosevelt's signing of this order was a direct result of efforts by Black trade union leader, A. Philip Randolph.
• During 1953 President Harry S. Truman's Committee on Government Contract Compliance urged the Bureau of Employment Security "to act positively and affirmatively to implement the policy of nondiscrimination . . . ."
• The 1954 Supreme Court decision in Brown v. Board of Education overturned Plessy v. Ferguson.
• The actual phrase "affirmative action" was first used in President Lyndon Johnson's 1965 Executive Order 11246 which requires federal contractors to "take affirmative action to ensure that applicants are employed, and that employees are treated during employment, without regard to their race, creed, color, or national origin."
• In 1967, Johnson expanded the Executive Order to include affirmative action requirements to benefit women.
• Other equal protection laws passed to make discrimination illegal were the 1964 Civil Rights Act, Title II and VII of which forbid racial discrimination in "public accommodations" and race and sex discrimination in employment, respectively; and the 1965 Voting Rights Act adopted after Congress found "that racial discrimination in voting was an insidious and pervasive evil which had been perpetuated in certain parts of the country through unremitting and ingenious defiance of the Constitution."

 

[Tmy]

Dude, what the hell are you talking about. I called you out because you said there was no such thing as race, while at the same time supporting Affirmative Action for certain "races".

I did not say there was no such thing as race. My point was how you go about genitcally designating race can be different than how society designates race.

Lets look at the Bell Curve data. If Joe is 1/2 black and 1/2 white. Joe will be labled as black by society nad probably by himslef. So he takes an IQ test and scores low. THe Bell Curve will say "see he's black so genetically he is less intelligent". BUT genetically he's 1/2 white. The study is flawed.

Thats like saying "oranges cure colon cancer, as proof here's my data from the tangerines I studied".

 

[jj]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Tmy
AA was put in place in order to right prior wrongs. These schools DID disrciminate on the basis of color and sex.

As for the Bell Curve, thats been discussed in many threads. My big problem with it: How does one genetically indentify a black person vs a white. These lables tend to be social constructs. Plus, how many people have genetic background that is purely one race?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




HAhahahaha! And here we have it. Tmy, you are supporting affirmative action on one hand, which requires detailed desciptions of "race" by the colleges and goverment in order to separate those who will benefit from AA and those will not, and then, in the same breath, you are saying races cannot be distinguished from one another in your attempt to badmouth the BELL CURVE. LMAO.

You could at least be ethical enough to get his position right. He STATED what AA did in his opinion. You are simply so rabidly insane about the subject that you failed to realize that he didn't take a position beyond stating his OPINION of what the conclusion was.

From there, you launched, on this mistaken postulate, a character assassination intended to discredit the poor fellow.

Is there a reason for these ethical lapses on your part?

And, I do notice that you have not yet addressed any criticism of the Bell Curve. You have dodged, claimed that things that are obviously wrong are "obvious", but you have not addressed any of the basic flaws.

Why are you ducking and weaving? Have you nothing to defend your choice of citations with?

 

[jj]

Spin, corbin, spin.

I think you guys are misunderstanding something: Nobody is questioning the numbers in the BELL CURVE that show whites and asians score higher on IQ and ASVAB tests. No one. Those numbers and test results are clear.

Sir, do not even ATTEMPT to speak for me. You are, despite being told some small part of it, still entirely unaware of my entire position on the subject, and your summary above is quite misleading.

What people attack about the BELL CURVE are some of the ways M&H say IQ effects life, school, and work performance, and how that should or should not social policy. They also question M&H's methods for determining socionomic levels and other factors like that.

Perhaps you should re-read what I wrote.

But if you admit to actually having read it, then you'll have to address it, so you'll dodge wildly.

 

[Tmy]

I dispute the evidence that IQ tests are related to life outcomes is based upon the same things that bias the test in the first place.

I guess that makes me ignorant, some sceptics forum! IQ is BOGUS!

If Einstein was raised by wolves he would be no less a genius. Yet if you gave ferral Einstein an IQ test I doubt he'd score well.

 

[JAR]

Said by JAR: [Plain and simple. I have noticed that intellectuals are much rarer among the black population than they are among the white population.]

You gotta be kidding me!

This is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard, and immediately places you in the "not and intellectual" category.

You have "noticed". Nice scientific study there.

Let's see, your observations can be influenced by:

#1 Personal bias
#2 Media bias
#3 Cultural bias (of your culture and their culture)
[snip]

You're wrong when you say my view of black people is influenced by personal bias, media bias, and cultural bias. By bias I believe you mean biased in a negative way. I was biased towards black people in a positive way.

My parents used to be ESL teachers and they are left-wing people who have very high opinions of people who are not white. My father will occasionally do that left-wing thing where he'll say something good about non-white people with much enthusiasm or jump at a chance to say how stupid white people are.

So biased was my view of black people that when I was in elementary school and my mother said there was a problem with gang violence among blacks, I thought she was lying, because the idea that there might be evil African-Americans sounded absurd to me. During my elementary school years, I even avoided at all costs using the word black in reference to a race.

Then I went to a middle school in West Side Long Beach and my view of African-Americans and Mexicans changed drastically.