On Justifying our beliefs.

[farmermike]

You can't be serious?
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Anyone else see a problem here?

Yep,My brow has yet to become unfurrowed.

 

[RamblingOnwards]

Originally posted by Kitty Chan And you will find me in agreeeable in the flavor part you have a good point.

I suppose I shouldn't generalise 'Christianity' to the extent that I do in posts. I only fear that if I start specifying which aspects I'm talking about, I'll get jumped on by 'that's not REAL (tm) Christianity!'

CS Lewis whom I rather like as a matter of fact non hysterical type writer

I'm a fan of CS Lewis myself. I've always been particularly amused by the fact that he dismisses buggery between adolescent boys as a minor infraction.

said that God (this goes a bit with the driving force I posted too) being God could show Himself in many things. What you were saying about any good person. God sees the heart and so those that think they are a shoe in may not be in and those that think they are outside may be in. I cant understand people saying Gods great then they tie Him down. Tony Campola once said that when your praying for Aunt Bell and her hip do you really think God is going, really I didnt know that! (Back to why I read Lewis he has a way of going to what actually matters).

There is that consolation for religious family members of atheists who do believe this - if the atheist lives a moral life and God is Good, then when they die he will not judge them harshly for not believing in him.

I would suspect from this that you also adopt the view point of purgatory rather than hell?

I am fairly convinced that there will be no unquestionalble proof.

It does seem unlikely at this point. That doesn't mean I don't find the bits and pieces we do discover fascinating .

I confess Im thinking anitchrist type stuff. Apparently hes going to be like he had a fatal wound and rise in 3 days, I wonder how something like that would be seen. I brought this up before and considering our modern times it would be on CNN, enquirier, etc so what would a person think.

One of the problem's with todays media is that we have to be trained to treat it sceptically. As a result, I think there would be widespread dismissal of this story and with isolated fanaticism, the same as any other religious revelation. In other words, if it's on too small a scale, I don't think the reality of the event would have any impact on the reactions of the population. Religious and non-religious alike, it takes some doing to shake us from our established mindset.

 

[Kitty Chan]

I suppose I shouldn't generalise 'Christianity' to the extent that I do in posts. I only fear that if I start specifying which aspects I'm talking about, I'll get jumped on by 'that's not REAL (tm) Christianity!'

Why I do not like labels, they are good for a start point but go no where for understanding. Whats Real or Reality is a whole other post. For christianity I go with the creed then go from there. I figure its the main point and the rest is extra.

I'm a fan of CS Lewis myself. I've always been particularly amused by the fact that he dismisses buggery between adolescent boys as a minor infraction.

Well I have not heard that where does he speak of that? What of his books have you read?

There is that consolation for religious family members of atheists who do believe this - if the atheist lives a moral life and God is Good, then when they die he will not judge them harshly for not believing in him.

I would suspect from this that you also adopt the view point of purgatory rather than hell?

I suppose that it could be a consolation I was thinking more of fairness, if a christian trusts God to be who He says He is then one must trust Him to be fair. And as well what we think we know about a person is not the whole picture, whereas God knows the whole picture and hes the judge not us. As for a moral life Im thinking a little more than being a all around good guy thats why I mentioned someone like Ghandi.

Purgatory I dont know too much about the details, I think it comes from a confusion about what happens when one dies. Its said when you die you are with Christ so that would leave out purgatory. But Ive also heard asleep in Christ. Maybe purgatory fits in as a "waiting room" Im really not sure and havent completely decided on how it all works. Im not sure anyone knows for certain the exact procedure.

All I know and I know it drives this forum nuts is that "God is in control and whatever He decides is ok by me" that trust thing again. I know you think its a cop out but if He is God . . .

It does seem unlikely at this point. That doesn't mean I don't find the bits and pieces we do discover fascinating .

Yes its very interesting, I love history even saw King Tut's tour when it came but I was sad to see most of it was fibreglass. I just have a feeling that to find a positive proof would enable people to worship the item ie ark so I just believe that there will never be anything conclusive only glimpses.

One of the problem's with todays media is that we have to be trained to treat it sceptically. As a result, I think there would be widespread dismissal of this story and with isolated fanaticism, the same as any other religious revelation. In other words, if it's on too small a scale, I don't think the reality of the event would have any impact on the reactions of the population. Religious and non-religious alike, it takes some doing to shake us from our established mindset.

Im thinking that if it were this situation its supposed to occur after he has been around for a while so he would be well known across the world. And if you think about the bandwagon types I certainly hope that there would be those that would see through it. Because the bible does say appears to be dead. I dont know just random thoughts about it trying not to watch the election too much

 

[RamblingOnwards]

For christianity I go with the creed then go from there. I figure its the main point and the rest is extra.

Ahh, but which creed? The Nicene? The Apostle's? The Korean (this one is very pretty)? How about the Mennonite Confession of Faith?

I'm a fan of CS Lewis myself. I've always been particularly amused by the fact that he dismisses buggery between adolescent boys as a minor infraction.

Well I have not heard that where does he speak of that? What of his books have you read?

It's in 'Suprised by Joy'. Some googled extracts:

And [this] is why I cannot give pederasty anything like a first place among the evils of the Coll. There is much hypocrisy on this theme. People commonly talk as if every other evil were more tolerable than this. But why? ... The real reason for all the pother is, in my opinion, niether Christian nor ethical. We attack this vice not because it is the worst but because it is, by adult standards, the most disreputable and unmentionable, and happens also to be a crime in English law. The World will lead you only to Hell, but sodomy may lead you to jail and create a scandal, and lose you your job. The World, to do it justice, seldom does that.

[They] would have preferred girls to boys if they could have come by them ... we should have to say that pederasty, however great an evil in itself, was, in that time and place, the only foothold or cranny left for certain good things ... A perversion was the only chink left through which something spontaneous and uncalculating could creep in

Purgatory I dont know too much about the details, I think it comes from a confusion about what happens when one dies. Its said when you die you are with Christ so that would leave out purgatory. But Ive also heard asleep in Christ. Maybe purgatory fits in as a "waiting room" Im really not sure and havent completely decided on how it all works. Im not sure anyone knows for certain the exact procedure.

I was thinking of it in the terms of a limited punishment rather than an eternal punishment.

All I know and I know it drives this forum nuts is that "God is in control and whatever He decides is ok by me" that trust thing again. I know you think its a cop out but if He is God . . .

Well, it requires that you believe that God is fair and just and so on, and frankly, the descriptions in most religious texts falls far short of the mark.

Also, that statement can be read as an abdication of moral responsibility - the belief that as long as you are ordered to do something by a legitmate authority, you do not have to consider whether it is wrong or right. After the holocaust, I'm sure you can appreciate why people are concerned about that outlook.

Im thinking that if it were this situation its supposed to occur after he has been around for a while so he would be well known across the world.

I'm curious as to why you think this would be the case. I ask because Jesus was not well known even in the area in which he lived until many generations after his death. Isn't the anti-christ supposed to be patterned after his life?

I dont know just random thoughts about it trying not to watch the election too much

Well, you probably have a month in which to do that

 

[Kitty Chan]

Ahh, but which creed? The Nicene? The Apostle's? The Korean (this one is very pretty)? How about the Mennonite Confession of Faith?

In particular 1Corinthians, Chap 15, 3-7 for a statement.

Also Philippians 2 6-11 and Colossians 1 15-20 are more well known.

I guess if I was going to pick one of the ones you mentioned it would be Apostles' Creed. Like I said I would rather go with whats in the bible.

As for Lewis I will have to pick up a copy thats one I dont have. Then I can answer when I see the whole thing.

I was thinking of it in the terms of a limited punishment rather than an eternal punishment.

Limited or eternal? Well perhaps this purgatory bit starts limited, like I said dont know and havent totally decided.

As for eternal punishment let me put it in a different outlook for some food for thought. God gave us free will and would like it very much if we would choose to be with Him. In fact that is His number one goal. But that choice has another option there are those who choose not to acknowledge or be with God. Take Him or leave Him. So, the separation chosen in this life will follow them into the next.

Well, it requires that you believe that God is fair and just and so on, and frankly, the descriptions in most religious texts falls far short of the mark.

Also, that statement can be read as an abdication of moral responsibility - the belief that as long as you are ordered to do something by a legitmate authority, you do not have to consider whether it is wrong or right. After the holocaust, I'm sure you can appreciate why people are concerned about that outlook.

To be clear, I do not reject responsibility, If I believe that at one point in my future I will be judged for my actions then whatever I do here I know eventually I will not "get away" with it.

The only "order" from God as a authority is

Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

People will use God, religion, athesism, ufos, science, pseudo science, politics, family, friends, environment, situations to further their agendas. Its inaccurate to blame any of these things for individual or group behaviour. One blames anyone or anything but themselves. It isnt the systems its the users that are the problem.


I'm curious as to why you think this would be the case. I ask because Jesus was not well known even in the area in which he lived until many generations after his death. Isn't the anti-christ supposed to be patterned after his life?

I dont know if Jesus was so unknown, I think a couple of people showed up on Palm Sunday. Also if He was unknown then why the crowds when He spoke. Why did the Magi come from the great distance? I think He was very well known.

And yes the anti christ would be patterened after Christs life.

 

[RamblingOnwards]

But that choice has another option there are those who choose not to acknowledge or be with God. Take Him or leave Him. So, the separation chosen in this life will follow them into the next.

Hell as separation from God. Do you think you have the option of changing your mind after you die?

People will use God, religion, athesism, ufos, science, pseudo science, politics, family, friends, environment, situations to further their agendas.

That is very true, and one of the reasons I believe we should never allow 'someone else told me to do it' or 'the greater good' as a valid reason for immorality - because it will be abused. I know (or rather, I suspect) if you heard 'the voice of God' you'd consult a psychiatrist, but if some-one managed to convince you that they really had recieved an instruction from God, would you still condemn them if it was immoral?

I dont know if Jesus was so unknown, I think a couple of people showed up on Palm Sunday. Also if He was unknown then why the crowds when He spoke. Why did the Magi come from the great distance? I think He was very well known.

Okay, I hate to sound like the stereotypical skeptic here, but... evidence?

I was under the impression the 'reasonable' explanation as to why nobody mentioned the guy until half a decade after his death (no letters between Roman leaders discussing the threat, no butcher's filing complaints because that Jesus rabble blocked access to his store, no record keepers or historians at the time giving him so much as a footnote) was that he simply wasn't that well-known (and it's proof of God's power that from this quiet inspiration a handful of isolated churches were established, which grew into...yadda yadda).

Do you believe the Josephus paragraph is genuine? Even so, do you consider this enough to indicate that he was very well known? I don't mean to attack your faith here, I'm just interested in how you fit your belief into the historical framework .

 

[richardm]

I dont know if Jesus was so unknown, I think a couple of people showed up on Palm Sunday. Also if He was unknown then why the crowds when He spoke. ... I think He was very well known.

Trouble is, from this distance it's very difficult to say with certainty just how many people were present at these events.

Even today when there's a protest rally you'll see two sets of figures - one from the organisers: "More than 20,000 people!" and one from the police "Around 7,000". There are two reasons for this. Firstly, the police are better at counting; they have the experience and the opportunity. The rally organisers don't have this advantage. The second reason is that the rally organisers do have an interest in inflating the numbers. And it's not hard to imagine that the early Christians would have had a similar motivation.

So those huge crowds may not have been all that impressive, in reality. I daresay Jesus would have been known about in the immediate locality, but I don't think we can say with any certainty that he was very well known generally.

 

[evildave]

I find it's easiest to get rid of unsupportable beliefs as I identify them.

Saves the effort of 'justifying' them.

 

[Gestahl]

No, faith is practised when one holds to a belief which one once accepted as fact (because sufficient evidence was available), and possibly still intellectually knows to be true, even though everything else seems to be indicating that one is wrong and when ones emotions and feelings are telling one to think the opposite.

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Faith is the triumph of knowledge and reason over mere feelings(which are often deceptive).

You can't be serious?
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Anyone else see a problem here?

So, he claims that faith is holding on to a cherished truth in the face of contradictory evidence, feeling, and thought?

I would actually claim that definition is closer to the truth than many of the standard definitions given. However, the second statement does not follow, because knowledge and reason dictate that one should reexamine truths against evidence.

The problem with this is that faith is a terribly emotional thing, not logical or reasonable. If there is evidence, it is not faith. If there is a scientific verification method, it is not belief, but fact. Most of the things people have faith in are what they are told from an authority, or from someone with emotional significance, without evidence sufficient for the skeptic.

 

[Kitty Chan]

Hell as separation from God. Do you think you have the option of changing your mind after you die?

As a start I am enjoying this conversation, learning alot actually. One must be able to talk about what or why they believe anything, I may not know all the reasons there is still things Im finding out. ie you seem to know more about purgatory than me, but Im patient I will try to figure out what I think about it.

I do not think there is a option after you die. Thats why its said that now is the time of decision. For example the 2 thiefs on the cross'es. The difference is the one thief realised that he did do crimes and knew he was guilty, and acknowledges Jesus. The other thief hardened his heart as they say and would not agree he had done anything wrong and would not acknowledge Jesus.

The one that acknowledged Jesus as the Son of God was promised to be with Him that day.


That is very true, and one of the reasons I believe we should never allow 'someone else told me to do it' or 'the greater good' as a valid reason for immorality - because it will be abused. I know (or rather, I suspect) if you heard 'the voice of God' you'd consult a psychiatrist, but if some-one managed to convince you that they really had recieved an instruction from God, would you still condemn them if it was immoral?

One thing that is overlooked by alot of people is that Jesus was rather insistant on people judging what they hear and see and not to trust just anything. There is volumes written about how to make sure one is hearing the "voice" of God.

(As a note that I dont believe there is a audible voice like in biblical times. The best I can describe it is different times call for different things. Like we are not following around a pillar of cloud or fire either at the moment. The next audible sound if I recall correctly would be the trumpet. I say so because there was another thread about voices in the head and this is entirely different.)

But back to what you were saying you are correct if I think God is telling me something I would consult not a pshchiatrist but perhaps my husband. See what he thinks if its of God or not. And as I have said before I have friends whom are christian I would ask, pastor, even my non believing friends etc. Then maybe pray more. Dont forget prayer IS talking to God. So, depending on what I think Ive "heard" then I will try to confirm what it is. If its a big decision the more thinking over it gets.

And no one would convince me that they had heard from God if the instruction they heard was immoral. I would be checking out their claim with suspicion. God does not tempt us. He does not say to run the plane into the building. Remember I said responsibility? Also how people use God to further their personal agendas? Well running planes into buildings is personal agendas.

Im gonna hit submit reply so this doesnt get a mile long

 

[Kitty Chan]

ps to all this I am travelling for a couple weeks so if my computer does not log in I may not answer straight away but I'll be back