On Consciousness

[PixyMisa]

Apart from we only know of them through consciously observed and conducted experiments.

So?

Quarks have very few and very precisely defined properties, and do not change. They are not and cannot be conscious.

 

[Zeuzzz]

Quarky is ample proof that quarks are conscious. He posts here doesn't he? He even has a theory, which appears to me to similar to the Big Bang materialist theory, but in C major.

I do not know the all the details to elaborate further.

 

[Dancing David]

"You really think that gibberish is secret nonsence talk or something a 2-month-old infant might say, but in reality it is a "secret language" used by some either for secrecy or just for kicks. If you want to join the conversation, listen up."

It was gibberish Zeuzzz, you are more stuck to your favorite paradigms then you know, you spout the same old tried and true nonsense as though it is a gospel, you make sweeping generalizations about everything that can be shown to be false with little efforts and then use the same sort of up/down, right/wrong characterizations as the 'western' society that you mischaracterize.

All humans tend to engage in ethe same behaviors and it is notable that you do not question your own beliefs at all.

Is that why nihilism bothers you? All thoughts and words are equally false, all are just abstracted entities that take meaning through symbolic exchange between communicants. The cultural, social and personal context always matters and is also equally false at all times.

That is the tao Zeuzzzz, it is also nihilistic. The question always comes back to the same point, which words and concepts are valid, which ways can they be used to build and promote peace, who can they be used to unite rather than divide.

All cultures, societies and people have valid and invalid thoughts and beliefs, all of them have healthy and unhealthy behaviors. Us/them does not help the situation at all, and most of that post was gibberish with grains of truth upon which you built your castle of preconception.


"Also interesting in the western ideal is the lack of relationship with females at any point."
Really Pondhopper? Where do you think that came from, and what meaning in mutual communication does it have, the 'western ideal' as presented by whom and defined in what context? Do you mean to say that ecclesiastical culture heavily influenced by the hellenisitic duality and patriarchal political structure is all there is to 'western' ideals?

"Since the 1960's various spreads of popular cults and cultural shifts have been breaking these long held dogmas. "
And they immediately made new dogmas, an in groups and out groups, up/down, us/them, right/wrong.

 

[Dancing David]

Well the reside inside baryons, mesons, protons (leptons?) and general subatomic particles that adhere to quantum inderminsism.

They only decide their position in space time when we consciously observe them, or consciously measure them. Quantum nonlocality^WP is strange thing, as is the Wave function collapse^WP and what these subatomic particles decide to do when me consciously make an effort to measure them out of the array of possibilities the equations originally assign to them.

Still wrong.

Consciousness not required.

 

[tsig]

I've done it very sparingly, as is my rule with all psychedelics, especially the strong ones. Most I've spent under it's influence is an 1-2 hours or so in total in my lifetime after smoking it and about 5-6 after drinking it the once with an MAOI.

But they were the most confounding, profound, interesting, paradigm busting and imaginative hours of my life. I'll definitely return.

I prefer the productive types of agents like noopept^WP, not the ones that leave you googly-eyed and in a different dimension, though both are fun.

So enlightenment is just a trip away?

 

[Zeuzzz]

So enlightenment is just a trip away?

Depends on the person, their mental health, their setting, their company, their expectations and their openness to new experiences.

 

[PixyMisa]

Depends on the person, their mental health, their setting, their company, their expectations and their openness to new experiences.

And even more on their willingness to believe obvious falsehoods and arbitrarily redefine common words.

 

[quarky]

Baryons and mesons, correct; leptons are fundamental particles in themselves.


No.

Quarks have very few and very precisely defined properties, and do not change. They are not and cannot be conscious.

but, Pixy...
aren't you the one that suggested a thermostat could be conscious?
Why the dividing line?
It seems rather arbitrary.

 

[Zeuzzz]

A shaman or amazonian would explain it to you as follows:

In the western world we experience the reality of this physical realm and then base all other experiences on that defined concept.

For the shaman, realities are infinite, instantly changing and molding through the turns of life. It is a boundlessness space where the Shaman reaches navigates through dimensional portals into other realms.

Thought these journeys shamans reach a place only allowed in
western reality in fantasy and science fiction but in the world of a mystic, these experiences are not only real but they have profound effects on the physical realm. Matter becomes energy an energy matter as illness known as disease are magically released under the power and direction of the shaman, as the shaman works in the invisible spades symptoms disappear like a parlour trick, only in this case it is serious with the patient in-distress and in need of relief of emotional pain.

The shaman defines western logic by experiencing life outside of self created boundaries by the western psyche.


Now to a western person not used to these alternative realities Shamans are so used to these experiences can be terrifying and life changing, and in high doses usually carry a message, and heal their emotional detachment from their surroundings, or resolve an habitual addiction in their life (I can provide clinical studies to back this up, recently did in another thread)

Dennis Mckenna, Terrence's more academic, straight and scientific brother, an eminent botanist has never had the balls to try the Shamanic Brew. He was invited, under strange circumstances, and found himself recently sat in the ceremonial room with the 1000 other people that were doing it with, some western people also nervous with him too, with the group União do Vegetal^WP.

As an extremely western scientifically minded person his experience was very unique. In fact, his body resisted it at first, and he had to ask for a second top up. At which point he had the most ground breaking scientific journey unveiled to him, which was hard to believe for a rationalist logical thinker. He recently gave a speech about it here, and at one point this fully grown man bursts into tears in front of an academic audience and can barely tell you what happened to him and the messages he got, and journey he went on.

I highly recommend it. Just put it on in the background if you don't want to focus full attention on it. 30 minutes.

Part 1



Part 2

 

[Perpetual Student]

Thanks to that woo-meister and thread destroyer, ZZeuzzz, Mr. Scott's thread has degenerated into a morass of non-scientific babble.
It's unfortunate, since the pursuit of understanding human consciousness can be a fascinating endeavor.

 

[Zeuzzz]

Thanks to that woo-meister and thread destroyer, ZZeuzzz, Mr. Scott's thread has degenerated into a morass of non-scientific babble.
It's unfortunate, since the pursuit of understanding human consciousness can be a fascinating endeavor.

Point out the non scientific points, thanks.

Fascinating it can be indeed. But, you are approaching it in corrrectly. see my sig

 

[Belz...]

Depends on the person, their mental health, their setting, their company, their expectations and their openness to new experiences.

What's great about REAL physics is that it doesn't depend on any of that.

 

[quarky]

Thanks to that woo-meister and thread destroyer, ZZeuzzz, Mr. Scott's thread has degenerated into a morass of non-scientific babble.
It's unfortunate, since the pursuit of understanding human consciousness can be a fascinating endeavor.

i understand you point, yet, it is this divisiveness, this variety of opinion, that has enabled this thread its long legs.

quick agreement of consensus, however comfy, doesn't lead to much dialog.

 

[Dancing David]

A shaman or amazonian would explain it to you as follows:

In the western world we experience the reality of this physical realm and then base all other experiences on that defined concept.

For the shaman, realities are infinite, instantly changing and molding through the turns of life.

Sigh that is not what my teachers said, but please misrepresent shamansim however you want.

It is a boundlessness space where the Shaman reaches navigates through dimensional portals into other realms.

Blah, blah, blah, no it isn't, and you should have another shaman anchor you until yo have proficiency in your journey beyond.
I was never taught about that infinite space, whatever Zeuzzz.

Thought these journeys shamans reach a place only allowed in
western reality in fantasy and science fiction but in the world of a mystic, these experiences are not only real but they have profound effects on the physical realm.

Evidence and data lacking. They have an impact on teh shaman, yes.

Matter becomes energy an energy matter as illness known as disease are magically released under the power and direction of the shaman, as the shaman works in the invisible spades symptoms disappear like a parlour trick, only in this case it is serious with the patient in-distress and in need of relief of emotional pain.

more lack of data and evidence.

The shaman defines western logic by experiencing life outside of self created boundaries by the western psyche.

More over characterization on your part and speaking from the depth of ignorance. have you ever talked with a shaman, I have.

Now to a western person not used to these alternative realities Shamans are so used to these experiences can be terrifying and life changing, and in high doses usually carry a message, and heal their emotional detachment from their surroundings, or resolve an habitual addiction in their life (I can provide clinical studies to back this up, recently did in another thread)

I doubt those studies and their methodology to a large extent, please reveal them to us.
Should be as entertaining as ever, I suspect a lack of any protocols and data.

Dennis Mckenna, Terrence's more academic, straight and scientific brother, an eminent botanist has never had the balls to try the Shamanic Brew. He was invited, under strange circumstances, and found himself recently sat in the ceremonial room with the 1000 other people that were doing it with, some western people also nervous with him too, with the group União do Vegetal^WP.

As an extremely western scientifically minded person his experience was very unique. In fact, his body resisted it at first, and he had to ask for a second top up. At which point he had the most ground breaking scientific journey unveiled to him, which was hard to believe for a rationalist logical thinker. He recently gave a speech about it here, and at one point this fully grown man bursts into tears in front of an academic audience and can barely tell you what happened to him and the messages he got, and journey he went on.

I highly recommend it. Just put it on in the background if you don't want to focus full attention on it. 30 minutes.

Part 1



Part 2

The usual lack of actual data and evidence abounds. I wonder what western mystics are Zeuzzz?

 

[Dancing David]

Point out the non scientific points, thanks.

Fascinating it can be indeed. But, you are approaching it in corrrectly. see my sig

Your grasp of science has been well demonstrated in the past, I can hardly wait for you to post some actual research papers and evidence of shamanic healing of addiction.

 

[PixyMisa]

A shaman or amazonian would explain it to you as follows:

In the western world we experience the reality of this physical realm and then base all other experiences on that defined concept.

For the shaman, realities are infinite, instantly changing and molding through the turns of life. It is a boundlessness space where the Shaman reaches navigates through dimensional portals into other realms.

And anyone who is not crazy or obsessively ignorant would note that we landed a nuclear-powered robot the size of a Buick on the surface of another world using a rocket-powered sky-crane, while they... Did drugs.

 

[PixyMisa]

but, Pixy...
aren't you the one that suggested a thermostat could be conscious?

No. I noted, following Dennett, that a thermostat is NOT conscious. Aware, but not conscious.

Why the dividing line?

Quarks have very few and very precisely defined properties, and do not change. They are not and cannot be conscious.

It seems rather arbitrary.

No.

 

[PixyMisa]

i understand you point, yet, it is this divisiveness, this variety of opinion, that has enabled this thread its long legs.

No.

quick agreement of consensus, however comfy, doesn't lead to much dialog.

When you're right, you don't need to talk about it. You go on to the next thing.

 

[PixyMisa]

Thanks to that woo-meister and thread destroyer, ZZeuzzz, Mr. Scott's thread has degenerated into a morass of non-scientific babble.

Can't blame Zeuzzz for all of it. This happens with every thread here that even touches upon the subject of consciousness; there are those who seem absolutely driven to deny any scientific understanding of the subject.

It's unfortunate, since the pursuit of understanding human consciousness can be a fascinating endeavor.

Indeed.

 

[blobru]

-Quarks have very few and very precisely defined properties, and do not change.-

Hiya, Pixy. Just glancing through recent posts, so there may be some context I'm missing, but I'm not seeing your meaning here.

In the standard model, aren't quarks constantly changing color (as they exchange gluons) and flavor (via decay)?