On Consciousness

[dlorde]

Zeuzzz, you pathetic hippy.

When will you give up this hopeless battle for our souls?

 

[Zeuzzz]

I am a pagan buddhist nihilist.

Isn't that illegal in the west?

( I respect that mix, apart from nihilism, what an odd mix )

Funny that as usual the citation you give does nothing to support your premise that people take DMT and hallucinate have an experience that they categorize as 'female'.

I'm mixing up subjective experiences with a science forum; never was going to end well.

A wise person would create a pantheon to represent nature, both genders and non gendered deities. Only someone fixated on a monotheistic culture steeped in dualism and false hierarchies would want any gender over the other to personify nature. I see a pluralistic nature that transcends gender and such blatant monotheism.

We in the west are the inheritors of a very different understanding of the world than the ancients knew. Loss of connectivity to the Tao has meant that the psychological development of the western civilization has diverged in a markedly different direction than the Easts. In western culture the focus has been steadily on ego and the god of the egomaniac, the monotheistic ideal. It represents what is basically a pathological personality pattern projected onto the ideal of god; the pattern of the paranoid, possessive, power obsessed male ego. The dominator culture in our society.

This projection of god is not someone you would want invite to a barbeque.

Also interesting in the western ideal is the lack of relationship with females at any point. They are totally disregarded. In ancient Rome Alcohol was seen as a sacred right for men only, and there are countless tales of husbands murdering their wives for merely taking a sip of their 'sacred' wine.

Even the ancients assigned Zeus a wife, many consorts and daughters (I'm still waiting DNA evidence, not convinced). There heavenly pairings are typical. Only the god of western civilization has no mother, no sister, no female consort and no daughter.

Hinduism and Buddhism have maintained traditions of techniques of ecstasy that include, as stated in the Yogic Sutras of Pantanjali "Light filled herbs" and the rituals of these great religions give ample scope for the expression of the female form. Sadly western dogma and culture has suffered and long and substantiated break with these sociosymbolic relationships to the feminine and the mysteries that surround us every day in all organic life that can be realized with the use of shamanistic hallucinogenic medicines.

Modern culture and religion in the west, that surrounds us everyday, despite our efforts to shut out all ancient superstitions and belief systems (spend a month in china, notice the difference!).

Since the 1960's various spreads of popular cults and cultural shifts have been breaking these long held dogmas. Take the advent of trance and Rock and Roll, reggae and disco, these are a return, a reversion, to archaic values of shamanistic meditative drumming and repetitive beats used to induce altered ecstatic states of mind.

Sex, drugs, and rock and roll, baby; it's an archaic formula for both religious celebration and a good time.

The unfortunate global triumph in western values means the planet has sort of sent us collectively into a kind of collective neurosis; due to the lack of a connection to the unconscious mind. Gaining access again to the unconsciousness mind again through through natural organic plant materials found around us reaffirms our original bond to the living and very much alive planet Earth.

Our shift from a one-ness with the planet, a kind of evolutionary homeostasis of consciousness and the gaian mind, seemed to shift with the great God plan to that of Pices that occurred with the suppression of pagan mysteries and the global rise of christian values around the globe. What ensured was two millennia of religious warfare, persecution, murder and male dominated paranoid slaughter.

The monotheistic grounded forces, that of scientific industrialism (not scientific inquiry or method) and global politics by male dominated power structures were birthed at a time of the shattering between our symbiotic relationships with the very plants and psycho-actives that had bound us to nature from the dimmest beginnings of our ascent from primates to the very humans we are today. We were left guilt burden, frightened and alone; and existential man was born.

The total abandonment of the ego dissolving rites of the visionary plants has allowed what began as a relatively benign cult of individual maladaptive style into manifesting as the guiding image of the whole social organism.

For our own sake, we need to turn our attention back to Archaic way of visionary plants and the messages they have, and turn our backs on the dominator values of the unchecked growth of history told only by the dominator winners and never the culturally suppressed members.

History is written by the winners, and they are now turning out to be by far the biggest retrospective loosers history has known.

Perhaps indeed what most materialists here need is in fact a willingness to alter the state of consciousness, the subject they claim so much authority over without ever having altered it themselves to experience the counter argument with a naturally occurring substance used by our ancestors of tens of thousands of years, just even for an hour or two, then this discussion would become more productive.

 

[dlorde]

When I've reached a page in this thread where i'm convinced everyone that's posted has one.

How will you convince yourself - more DMT?

Back in the day, I too had some memorable experiences with 'shrooms, but I could tell what was real and what wasn't. It was reminiscent of lucid dreaming.

 

[quarky]

How will you convince yourself - more DMT?

Back in the day, I too had some memorable experiences with 'shrooms, but I could tell what was real and what wasn't. It was reminiscent of lucid dreaming.

You didn't take enough.

 

[Zeuzzz]

How will you convince yourself - more DMT?

Back in the day, I too had some memorable experiences with 'shrooms, but I could tell what was real and what wasn't. It was reminiscent of lucid dreaming.

I echo quarkies sentiment. Mckenna explains this in much more depth here. And pretty much says exactly what he just said, but in far more depth.

 

[quarky]

Pathetic hippy stuff.

Although, I tend to agree about the significance of the ego-busting psychedelic experience.
Like, it is significant.

Much like dogs and body mutilations, and even tobacco, it's pretty much universal.

Steve Jobs would likely agree.

 

[dlorde]

You didn't take enough.

Perhaps; moderation in all things.

I still have the memories, and it did change my perspective, but I don't think there's any significant permanent damage

A few people never seemed to come back to reality.

 

[dlorde]

I echo quarkies sentiment.

Echoing seems to be your forte.

 

[Perpetual Student]

We in the west are the inheritors of a very different understanding of the world than the ancients knew. Loss of connectivity to the Tao has meant that the psychological development of the western civilization has diverged in a markedly different direction than the Easts. In western culture the focus has been steadily on ego and the god of the egomaniac, the monotheistic ideal. It represents what is basically a pathological personality pattern projected onto the ideal of god; the pattern of the paranoid, possessive, power obsessed male ego. The dominator culture in our society.

This projection of god is not someone you would want invite to a barbeque.

Also interesting in the western ideal is the lack of relationship with females at any point. They are totally disregarded. In ancient Rome Alcohol was seen as a sacred right for men only, and there are countless tales of husbands murdering their wives for merely taking a sip of their 'sacred' wine.

Even the ancients assigned Zeus a wife, many consorts and daughters (I'm still waiting DNA evidence, not convinced). There heavenly pairings are typical. Only the god of western civilization has no mother, no sister, no female consort and no daughter.

Hinduism and Buddhism have maintained traditions of techniques of ecstasy that include, as stated in the Yogic Sutras of Pantanjali "Light filled herbs" and the rituals of these great religions give ample scope for the expression of the female form. Sadly western dogma and culture has suffered and long and substantiated break with these sociosymbolic relationships to the feminine and the mysteries that surround us every day in all organic life that can be realized with the use of shamanistic hallucinogenic medicines.

Modern culture and religion in the west, that surrounds us everyday, despite our efforts to shut out all ancient superstitions and belief systems (spend a month in china, notice the difference!).

Since the 1960's various spreads of popular cults and cultural shifts have been breaking these long held dogmas. Take the advent of trance and Rock and Roll, reggae and disco, these are a return, a reversion, to archaic values of shamanistic meditative drumming and repetitive beats used to induce altered ecstatic states of mind.

Sex, drugs, and rock and roll, baby; it's an archaic formula for both religious celebration and a good time.

The unfortunate global triumph in western values means the planet has sort of sent us collectively into a kind of collective neurosis; due to the lack of a connection to the unconscious mind. Gaining access again to the unconsciousness mind again through through natural organic plant materials found around us reaffirms our original bond to the living and very much alive planet Earth.

Our shift from a one-ness with the planet, a kind of evolutionary homeostasis of consciousness and the gaian mind, seemed to shift with the great God plan to that of Pices that occurred with the suppression of pagan mysteries and the global rise of christian values around the globe. What ensured was two millennia of religious warfare, persecution, murder and male dominated paranoid slaughter.

The monotheistic grounded forces, that of scientific industrialism (not scientific inquiry or method) and global politics by male dominated power structures were birthed at a time of the shattering between our symbiotic relationships with the very plants and psycho-actives that had bound us to nature from the dimmest beginnings of our ascent from primates to the very humans we are today. We were left guilt burden, frightened and alone; and existential man was born.

The total abandonment of the ego dissolving rites of the visionary plants has allowed what began as a relatively benign cult of individual maladaptive style into manifesting as the guiding image of the whole social organism.

For our own sake, we need to turn our attention back to Archaic way of visionary plants and the messages they have, and turn our backs on the dominator values of the unchecked growth of history told only by the dominator winners and never the culturally suppressed members.

History is written by the winners, and they are now turning out to be by far the biggest retrospective loosers history has known.

Perhaps indeed what most materialists here need is in fact a willingness to alter the state of consciousness, the subject they claim so much authority over without ever having altered it themselves to experience the counter argument with a naturally occurring substance used by our ancestors of tens of thousands of years, just even for an hour or two, then this discussion would become more productive.

Gibberish!

 

[quarky]

Perhaps; moderation in all things.

I still have the memories, and it did change my perspective, but I don't think there's any significant permanent damage

A few people never seemed to come back to reality.

Reality can be over rated.

 

[Zeuzzz]

I think the consorted legalization and study of endogenous psychedelic drugs and their ligands could reveal more of use to scientific knowledge about the UFO phenomenon and related 'psychic' phenomenon than the telescope added to astronomy.

Yet, unlike UFO's, or psychic phenomenon (which they probably cause), they are banned, ostracized and shunned from society and most research laboratories. Evil neurochemicals in action!

 

[Zeuzzz]

Gibberish!

"You really think that gibberish is secret nonsence talk or something a 2-month-old infant might say, but in reality it is a "secret language" used by some either for secrecy or just for kicks. If you want to join the conversation, listen up."

 

[quarky]

disclaimer,
my key board is messed up, and i can't shift for capital letters.

i just wanted to express something goofy...as i become increasingly senile, i've come to appreciate the silliness of all of our varied views on things.

i suspect that i wouldn't like it, if we were all on the same page...even if it was the page of ultimate truth.

falsehood and mis-interpretation is like flavor or color.
it may be necessary.

i think i'm at the point wherein i prefer if people don't agree with me.


christ, i wonder if the drugs caused this?

 

[Zeuzzz]

How will you convince yourself - more DMT?

I've done it very sparingly, as is my rule with all psychedelics, especially the strong ones. Most I've spent under it's influence is an 1-2 hours or so in total in my lifetime after smoking it and about 5-6 after drinking it the once with an MAOI.

But they were the most confounding, profound, interesting, paradigm busting and imaginative hours of my life. I'll definitely return.

I prefer the productive types of agents like noopept^WP, not the ones that leave you googly-eyed and in a different dimension, though both are fun.

 

[Zeuzzz]

disclaimer,
my key board is messed up, and i can't shift for capital letters.

i just wanted to express something goofy...as i become increasingly senile, i've come to appreciate the silliness of all of our varied views on things.

i suspect that i wouldn't like it, if we were all on the same page...even if it was the page of ultimate truth.

falsehood and mis-interpretation is like flavor or color.
it may be necessary.

i think i'm at the point wherein i prefer if people don't agree with me.

I like calling this consciousness paradox the cosmic giggle. My alternative theory to the woo of the Big Bang.

 

[PixyMisa]

I think the consorted legalization and study of endogenous psychedelic drugs and their ligands could reveal more of use to scientific knowledge about the UFO phenomenon and related 'psychic' phenomenon than the telescope added to astronomy.

You're wrong.

Yet, unlike UFO's, or psychic phenomenon (which they probably cause), they are banned, ostracized and shunned from society and most research laboratories. Evil neurochemicals in action!

Most UFO sightings involve real objects, and are just classification errors. The same goes for so-called psychic phenomena - no hallucination involved, just a poor grasp of brain function and/or statistics.

 

[PixyMisa]

Well, the idea that quarks are conscious makes no sense at all (how would consciousness benefit a quark?), so the burden to explain this possibility is on you, sir.

More specifically, it's completely and definitively impossible. Quarks have very few and very precisely defined properties, and do not change. They are not and cannot be conscious.

If the laws of physics were such that quarks could be conscious, we could not exist.

 

[Zeuzzz]

More specifically, it's completely and definitively impossible. Quarks have very few and very precisely defined properties, and do not change. They are not and cannot be conscious.

If the laws of physics were such that quarks could be conscious, we could not exist.

Well the reside inside baryons, mesons, protons (leptons?) and general subatomic particles that adhere to quantum inderminsism.

They only decide their position in space time when we consciously observe them, or consciously measure them. Quantum nonlocality^WP is strange thing, as is the Wave function collapse^WP and what these subatomic particles decide to do when me consciously make an effort to measure them out of the array of possibilities the equations originally assign to them.

 

[PixyMisa]

Well the reside inside baryons, mesons, protons (leptons?) and general subatomic particles that adhere to quantum inderminsism.

Baryons and mesons, correct; leptons are fundamental particles in themselves.

They only decide their position in space time when we consciously observe them, or consciously measure them. Quantum nonlocality^WP is strange thing, as is the Wave function collapse^WP and what these subatomic particles decide to do when me consciously make an effort to measure them out of the array of possibilities the equations originally assign to them.

No.

Quarks have very few and very precisely defined properties, and do not change. They are not and cannot be conscious.

 

[Zeuzzz]

Quarks have very few and very precisely defined properties, and do not change. They are not and cannot be conscious.

Apart from we only know of them through consciously observed and conducted experiments.