On Consciousness

[Dancing David]

…and what is ‘learned’ and what is inherited / intuitive / instinctual? Are these questions answered definitively somewhere?

About 99% of human behaviors are learned and not biologically determined.

 

[Belz...]

Wrong???? ...these are not falsifiable issues here.

Explain.

We are also very often right about these conclusions. That, precisely, specifically, and explicitly, is what human life is all about. ' Know thyself ' I think it's called.

This is precisely why it's unreliable. It could be right, it could be wrong. When doing science, we try to eliminate the chances of being wrong, which is why philosophy is such a failure in the first place: it doesn't set any controls for itself. Introspection has the same problem. Idem for religion.

We can’t.

Of course we can. We routinely assume that other people are conscious, and for very good reason. It's not a gut feeling or wild speculation.

There does not exist a scientific test to resolve this issue

There is, but only if you dump the baggage associated with some definitions of consciousness and focus on a workable frame of reference.

ALL conclusions are, ultimately, a function of faith. Beyond that…there is…we don’t know.

What a beautiful statement of solipsism-like nonsense.

 

[Zeuzzz]

About 99% of human behaviors are learned and not biologically determined.

Reference for this?

Even birds totally isolated from their young for 3-5 generations will end up developing the exact same melody and harmony 'chirps' as their never heard ancestors used, even if a couple of the first generations are mute or have unique chirps at first. The nature/nurture debate is still not really understood fully in many discliplines.

 

[Belz...]

Reference for this?

Even birds totally isolated from their young for 3-5 generations will end up developing the exact same melody and harmony 'chirps' as their never heard ancestors used, even if a couple of the first generations are mute or have unique chirps at first. The nature/nurture debate is still not really understood fully in many discliplines.

Wow. I actually agree with you on something.

 

[Anders Lindman]

Even birds totally isolated from their young for 3-5 generations will end up developing the exact same melody and harmony 'chirps' as their never heard ancestors used, even if a couple of the first generations are mute or have unique chirps at first. The nature/nurture debate is still not really understood fully in many discliplines.

Reference for this?

 

[Zeuzzz]

Reference for this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMds1qynl_Q#at=380

Talking is something that is unique to humans, yet it still remains a mystery. Horizon meets the scientists beginning to unlock the secrets of speech - including a father who is filming every second of his son's first three years in order to discover how we learn to talk, the autistic savant who can speak more than 20 languages, and the first scientist to identify a gene that makes speech possible.
Horizon also hears from the godfather of linguistics, Noam Chomsky, the first to suggest that our ability to talk is innate. A unique experiment shows how a new alien language can emerge in just one afternoon, in a bid to understand where language comes from and why it is the way it is.

Part 5 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS5QAJO09OE

It is unethical to isloate a child and raise it in silence to see if they would develop speech on their own. However, one scientist has got around this, by using birds.

Also: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8352525.stm

Zebra Finch Song Epigenetics--A REVISED REPORT

De novo establishment of wild-type song culture in the zebra finch
Nature 459, 564-568 (28 May 2009) | doi:10.1038/nature07994; Received 4 October 2008; Accepted 16 March 2009; Published online 3 May 2009

Human-like brain hemispheric dominance in birdsong learning http://www.pnas.org/content/109/31/12782.full

 

[Anders Lindman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMds1qynl_Q#at=380

The birds were taken away from their fathers before they had been taught how to sing. But is that really the case? What if the baby birds' neural patterns get trained even as early as when they are still developing inside their eggs? I'm skeptical about the experiment. To really be sure, the fathers should be nowhere near the mothers after conception. During the development of the egg, sound from the father can penetrate the eggshell and influence the development of the egg in a non-genetic way.

 

[tsig]

About 99% of human behaviors are learned and not biologically determined.

You had to learn how to breath and eat?

 

[PixyMisa]

You had to learn how to breath and eat?

Breathing is instinctive. You do have to learn how to eat, though.

 

[Dancing David]

Reference for this?

Even birds totally isolated from their young for 3-5 generations will end up developing the exact same melody and harmony 'chirps' as their never heard ancestors used, even if a couple of the first generations are mute or have unique chirps at first. The nature/nurture debate is still not really understood fully in many discliplines.

And are humans birds?

Seriously Zeuzzz.

 

[Dancing David]

Wow. I actually agree with you on something.

There is almost no evidence for modal or fixed action patterns in humans. Almost all of the behavior referred to as instinctual in humans is learned.

There are those hypothesize otherwise but they have almost data to present. In fact humans have some reflexes but that is about it.

 

[Dancing David]

You had to learn how to breath and eat?

Breathing is an autonomous behavior, the rooting behavior is a reflex, infants suckling I will have to look up.

Yes children do learn to eat, do you have any ?

 

[Dancing David]

Breathing is instinctive. You do have to learn how to eat, though.

Sigh, instinct has an actual technical meaning, although it has been replaced by modal and fixed action patterns. Breathing is something else.

 

[dlorde]

There is almost no evidence for modal or fixed action patterns in humans. Almost all of the behavior referred to as instinctual in humans is learned.

There are those hypothesize otherwise but they have almost data to present. In fact humans have some reflexes but that is about it.

So what is the evidence that 'almost all of the behavior referred to as instinctual in humans is learned' ?

 

[PixyMisa]

Sigh, instinct has an actual technical meaning, although it has been replaced by modal and fixed action patterns. Breathing is something else.

Sorry. Mea culpa. I was going to write something longer and more precise, but I got lazy. (With my layman's knowledge I will mess up the terms from time to time, so I welcome the correction.)

 

[Dancing David]

Hi, just pointing out the technical use of instinct which has become MAP and FAP.

You name the behavior dlorde, and I will see what I can find.

 

[Belz...]

There is almost no evidence for modal or fixed action patterns in humans. Almost all of the behavior referred to as instinctual in humans is learned.

There are those hypothesize otherwise but they have almost data to present. In fact humans have some reflexes but that is about it.

Well, considering how much innate behaviour other animals have, I find it hard to believe that we don't have a significant amount of behaviours "written in". In fact, many behaviours seen in babies eventually continue to influence the same individual once an adult. No ?

 

[Dancing David]

Well, considering how much innate behaviour other animals have, I find it hard to believe that we don't have a significant amount of behaviours "written in". In fact, many behaviours seen in babies eventually continue to influence the same individual once an adult. No ?

This is where we have to be cautious and probably go to another thread.

Not for humans as much as other animals. Ungulates walk within minutes of birth, mostly reflexive if I recall correctly. And they start hopping around and running, very interesting and obviously hard wired to a huge extent.

So starting off they have something hard wired (I recall reflexes) that get them standing and moving, so not much conditioning at first. But what about animals that are more of a neonate?

Some animals have young that are born helpless and totally unable to fend for themselves in any way. Kittens, puppies, humans for example, they are are much less capable at birth. I don't know if this is still called neotany or not, it was in the ancient days. If we look at animals you have a scale as it were of neotany (a measure of dependence upon parents/adults at birth), insects (nonsocial), fish, reptiles and then the mammals will vary widely and in different ways. Some are mobile and depend on the parent for milk, other like the three I listed are helpless and totally dependent. Then you can also scale how long the young are dependent upon the adults and in what ways for how long.

Humans will routinely rate about the highest if not the highest in these measures, and some evolutionary theory says that it is likely that neotany in humans is dependent upon the upright gait and decreasing pelvis size in humans as is the advanced brain development.

Now it seems likely that humans will correspondingly have fewer innate behaviors at birth and there are three reflexive behaviors that babies have three (maybe four, I am forgetful): the rooting/suckling, palmar reflex and bambini reflex. Compared to other mammals this is very low.

Now we get into the variety of behaviors, and I want to say that I do believe that many human behaviors are biologically based, have development windows and all that. It is about a matter of degree.

-Homeostatic behaviors: endocrine and other systems that are balance regulated
-Autonomic behaviors: heart rate, breathing, etc...
-Developmental stages triggered by growth: an odd set of heterogeneous behaviors genetically triggered or hard wired or created during development: imprinting and likely lots of others
-Fixed action patterns: what were called instincts when I was in the ancient schools days, stereotypic behaviors exhibited by all members of a species in response to certain events. hard wired behaviors shown by all members of the species in the same ways.
-Modal action patterns: a more modern variant allowing for flexibility in expression of the stereotypic behaviors of members of a species.
-Conditioned/learned behaviors: behaviors which occur as a result of continuing interaction, shaped and modeled and highly variable across individuals.

Now while people often think that humans normally have these 'instinctual' drives to eat, drink and avoid pain they are truly learned behaviors. A human infant seems to have to learn these things as well as every other behavior.

Now I do believe that there are lots of biologically based windows and things like that in humans. But so far I do not agree with Steven Pinker and others about the hardwired biological basis of human behavior. The evidence seems to show genetic abilities and genetic predispositions that allow for the acquisition of lots of behaviors like language.

But I think that most of the evidence presented for hard wired behavior in humans is weak and inconclusive at best. So while I feel there is potential for such behaviors, the evidence is lacking at this time. And do to the neotany of humans, it seems very unlikely to me.

I am biased by my teachers in college. I do believe that biology shapes and changes behaviors and strongly influences human behaviors, I just do not believe that there evidence of even a moderate nature for biologically driven hard wired behaviors in humans.

 

[dlorde]

You name the behavior dlorde, and I will see what I can find.

Oooh, now you're asking...

Just off the top of my head, how about:

Smiling, laughing, crying, temper tantrums.
Co-operative play.
Demonstrating sense of fairness, e.g. negative behaviour towards cheats, positive behaviour towards co-operators.

I don't think the appearance of behaviours at various stages in the course of maturation to adulthood is necessarily evidence of them being learned.

How certain can one be of sweeping statements about learned vs 'instinctive' behaviour without a control group (i.e. that has had no opportunity to learn)?

 

[Dancing David]

Oooh, now you're asking...

Just off the top of my head, how about:

Smiling, laughing, crying, temper tantrums.
Co-operative play.
Demonstrating sense of fairness, e.g. negative behaviour towards cheats, positive behaviour towards co-operators.

I don't think the appearance of behaviours at various stages in the course of maturation to adulthood is necessarily evidence of them being learned.

How certain can one be of sweeping statements about learned vs 'instinctive' behaviour without a control group (i.e. that has had no opportunity to learn)?

Well one of the clues would be the variety of expression of those traits. People do not all laugh and smile in the same situations, which would be a good indicator of it being hard wired. The components of the smile are reinforced by parents quite frequently, so even if it is a reflex, which I am not sure. It is socially conditioned. There are certainly cultural and social conditions for that.

Now when you say 'temper tantrum' do you mean just breaking down and crying? Or do you mean throwing things? Those behavior other than the crying, are vastly changed by behavior modification techniques.

Co-operative play, such variety and differences in expression (and even seeking of it), I am not sure how it could be biologically driven, could you clarify why you think it would be?




Now I agree that without controls it would be hard to establish, but it is commonly considered that play behaviors are learned behaviors, they again do not express themselves in all members of a species in the same situations.

I know I made a sweeping statement and we can take this to another thread if you wish. I just find that the arguments for hardwired behavior in humans are rather weak.