On 9/11, WTC7 Collapse Was Firemen's Concern (controlled demolition debunked)

[Sabrina]

You know what astonishes me to this day?

The fact that truthers can look at videos and pictures of smoke and flames literally BILLOWING out of multiple floors of WTC7; video and pictures taken over the course of SEVERAL HOURS I might add; not to mention testimony from firefighters and dozens of witnesses, all of which say they're afraid the building will collapse, or which say that building will collapse next, and they STILL claim it was a demolition.

The sheer amount of cognitive dissonance shown by such a stance is truly mind-boggling. About the only thing that could be remotely similar to a controlled demolition when it comes to WTC7 is the appearance of a collapse starting from the bottom of the building, and that's only the case if you ignore the video which shows the penthouse literally collapsing into the building after the supports underneath it give way. The rest of it couldn't be further from a demolition. For example:

-A large chunk of the building was destroyed when debris from WTC1 fell on it.
-That same debris sparked fires in the flammable substances of the building, which were allowed to burn unchecked for over seven hours due to the lack of water pressure in the area.
-Those fires were visible on multiple floors of the building, according to eyewitness testimony as well as video and pictures taken of the building.
-Bulging of the outer facade was noted by firefighters, a sign of imminent collapse.
-The building did not collapse neatly into its own footprint; instead it damaged surrounding buildings and collapsed into the street as well.

Taking all of that into account, I cannot bring myself to understand how ANYONE can say WTC7 was deliberately demolished, and the reasons they come up with for WHY they think it was demolished are even more ludicrous. They can't even come up with a coherent reason for demolishing a building that no one, prior to 9/11, had ever HEARD of, at least not one that can't be picked apart and shown to be utterly illogical by people who understand how firefighting, demolition, or the government work. Anyone who thinks WTC7 was deliberately demolished is, in my opinion, beyond hope of recovery; there is simply no explanation that accounts for why anyone should care about the building enough to have it demolished to begin with. One of the more spectacular fails by truthers.

 

[Edx]

Apparently these firefighters disagree.

http://firefightersfor911truth.org/

MM

You mean the small fringe minority and doesnt include any 911 firefighters?

Whats the reason no truther will ever quote a firefighter on 911 about WTC7? You know very well why. The idea that this firefighter is an oddity is a lie, everyone who spoke about it all thought the same on with no dissenting opinions whatsoever in nearly a decade.

You love trusting the small fringe irrelevant minority MM, I'll never understand why you think that makes more sence. Have you considered Creationism ? They're fringe and no one cares either, would be right up your street.

 

[leftysergeant]

Apparently these firefighters disagree.

http://firefightersfor911truth.org/

And when they started posting to the discussion board at Firehouse.com, the thread they entered got shut down because a bunch of real professionals got pissed off that some rookie from Seattle impuned their professionalism and intelligence.

You will not find a real professional fire fighter who thinks that any of that lot belong in the profession.

 

[Edx]

And when they started posting to the discussion board at Firehouse.com, the thread they entered got shut down because a bunch of real professionals got pissed off that some rookie from Seattle impuned their professionalism and intelligence.

You will not find a real professional fire fighter who thinks that any of that lot belong in the profession.

No no no, obviously the people posting in that thread, the mods and Firehouse, are in on the conspiracy.

Just like everyone else apparently

 

[Miragememories]

"Apparently these firefighters disagree.

http://firefightersfor911truth.org"

"You will not find a real professional fire fighter who thinks that any of that lot belong in the profession."

So now you are arguing that there are 'real' professional firefighters and apparently 'fake' professional firefighters.

Supposedly the real professionals are only those who agree with the Official Conspiracy Theory?

Too funny.

MM

 

[Sabretooth]

So now you are arguing that there are 'real' professional firefighters and apparently 'fake' professional firefighters.

Supposedly the real professionals are only those who agree with the Official Conspiracy Theory?

Too funny.

MM

Oh...does the FF911T site confirm that the petitioners are even real firefighters?

For the record, I'm a firefighter, and I think toofers are boot scum who don't have a combined measure of common sense that could fill a phone booth.

 

[sheeplesnshills]

Oh...does the FF911T site confirm that the petitioners are even real firefighters?

For the record, I'm a firefighter, and I think toofers are boot scum who don't have a combined measure of common sense that could fill a phone booth.

and if its anything like A&E911, their definition of "firefighter" probably includes anyone you has even just thought about blowing out a match.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

So now you are arguing that there are 'real' professional firefighters and apparently 'fake' professional firefighters.

Supposedly the real professionals are only those who agree with the Official Conspiracy Theory?

It has nothing to do with them being real or fake. The term used to describe the difference is professional incompetence wherein:

• When a professional's standard of competence falls dramatically below that expected
  
• When a professional knowingly acts or continues to act incompetently, or attempts to cover up incompetence
  
• When a professional fails to maintain proper records of the terms of engagement, scope of work or fees to be charged, or other matters
  
• When incompetence is particularly likely to reduce public confidence in said profession
  
• When a number of complaints or events, though not serious in themselves, together demonstrate a pattern of incompetence
  
• When a pattern of incompetence suggests a professional may not act competently in the future.’

Definition of incompetent: Incapable: not meeting requirements; "unequal to the demands put upon him"

Competent professionals can demonstrate their skills in the profession honestly; a quality I've yet to see from a 9/11 truther. For example, grossly misrepresenting the total collapse time of all the buildings involved, showing indifference to the influence of structural systems between building precedents on the part of AE911, the incapacity to read witness testimony, a gross misapplication of NFPA and other fire investigation concepts on the part of firefighters for 911truth, and a gross incapacity to render eye witness testimony on the part of Pentagon fly over supporters. These would all fit the description of professional incompetence, of course the list is much longer that these few.

That's a tall mountain to climb, but I wish you good luck anyway; maybe this time your prediction that Bush will place us under Marshall law will come true in 2012. Better late than never I suppose

 

[Scott Sommers]

Apparently these firefighters disagree.

http://firefightersfor911truth.org/

MM

This is another one of these bizarre 9/11 Truth Internet petitions. It is very difficult to know what a pile of names on the Net means. For example, the list of names you refer to contains this entry

Jim Lundberg,
"I saw the dust and smelled the sulfur. There is no way that was a natural collapse."

Is the implication that Jim was at the WTC on September 11, 2001? I can't see it any other way. Can you? But Jim doesn't have any firefighter qualifications listed, and when I typed his name into Google, I got this guy from the San Diego 9/11 Truth Meetup page. He's clearly not a firefighter and wasn't in NY 10 years ago.
http://www.meetup.com/SanDiego911Truth/members/9606159/

There are a surprising number of names on the list with no firefighting qualification. And then there's all the volunteer firefighters, like John Tyler Birch or Lance Fisher who talks about "the sound of explosions". I doubt there's more than a dozen or so names listed on that page who are actual firefighters.

So MM, this is just made up Truther crap. But don't believe me. Read the list yourself. I know you haven't because if you had, you wouldn't be getting taught making up crap like this.

 

[Horatius]

It has nothing to do with them being real or fake. The term used to describe the difference is professional incompetence wherein:

• When a professional's standard of competence falls dramatically below that expected
  
• When a professional knowingly acts or continues to act incompetently, or attempts to cover up incompetence
  
• When a professional fails to maintain proper records of the terms of engagement, scope of work or fees to be charged, or other matters
  
• When incompetence is particularly likely to reduce public confidence in said profession
  
• When a number of complaints or events, though not serious in themselves, together demonstrate a pattern of incompetence
  
• When a pattern of incompetence suggests a professional may not act competently in the future.’

Definition of incompetent: Incapable: not meeting requirements; "unequal to the demands put upon him"

Yet another example of how truthers just seem to lack any real-world experience of anything, really.

Everybody who has ever held any kind of job should know that, in any profession, you have people who are really good, people who are average, and people who suck at the job. And yet, truthers never acknowledge even the possibility that any of their "X for Truth" claimants might be in the segment of the profession that sucks.

It's a simple fact: not every scientist is the best scientist in the world. Not every pilot is the best pilot in the world. Not every engineer is the best engineer in the world. Not every fire-fighter is the best fire-fighter in the world.

Now, does that mean that these particular fire-fighters are the ones who suck? Not automatically, no. But when the vast majority of other fire-fighters take a look at what they're saying, and say, "God, that's stupid!", the probability that they are the ones that suck goes way, way up.

 

[Eric D]

So now you are arguing that there are 'real' professional firefighters and apparently 'fake' professional firefighters.

Supposedly the real professionals are only those who agree with the Official Conspiracy Theory?

Too funny.

MM

Weak. Why are you ignoring the fact that it's a small fringe group who weren't even there to access the damage and shifting the focus to what one poster here said about "real" and "fake" firemen?

 

[Miragememories]

"Apparently these firefighters disagree.

http://firefightersfor911truth.org"

"Is the implication that Jim was at the WTC on September 11, 2001? I can't see it any other way. Can you? But Jim doesn't have any firefighter qualifications listed, and when I typed his name into Google, I got this guy from the San Diego 9/11 Truth Meetup page. He's clearly not a firefighter and wasn't in NY 10 years ago.
http://www.meetup.com/SanDiego911Truth/members/9606159/

There are a surprising number of names on the list with no firefighting qualification. And then there's all the volunteer firefighters, like John Tyler Birch or Lance Fisher who talks about "the sound of explosions". I doubt there's more than a dozen or so names listed on that page who are actual firefighters.

So MM, this is just made up Truther crap. But don't believe me. Read the list yourself. I know you haven't because if you had, you wouldn't be getting taught making up crap like this."

Well, like you said, there are a lot of Jim Lundbergs out there.

You found the wrong one, but it's good to know he's interested in 9/11 truth.

I believe this must be the man you were seeking. The FireFighters for 9/11 Truth list him as a confirmed firefighter. I could find no further details other than he was formerly with the U.S. Air Force Special Forces pararescue and that he is now a programmer.

http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/viewthread.php?gid=2661&tid=627882&extra=&page=123
"Jim Lundberg – Former U.S. Air Force Special Forces pararescue.
Personal statement:

"I am a programmer and ex Air Force special forces rescue. I was in Poughkeepsie, NY, on 9/11/01 and went down to the site the next Saturday to look around and it had too much dust -- a strong smell of sulfur kind of like the explosives we use to train with."

MM

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I believe this must be the man you were seeking. The FireFighters for 9/11 Truth list him as a confirmed firefighter.

Can you find an honest and reputable source that he is a firefighter?

 

[sheeplesnshills]

Well, like you said, there are a lot of Jim Lundbergs out there.

I believe this must be the man you were seeking. The FireFighters for 9/11 Truth list him as a confirmed firefighter. I could find no further details other than he CLAIMS HE was formerly with the U.S. Air Force Special Forces pararescue and that he is now a programmer.



MM

FTFY and apparently he can tell nanny thermopoop by the smell......and of course "kind of like" does equal "was"

 

[Oz1976]

Interesting video, particularly when it goes careening off into an anti-Israel screed for no discrenable reason.

Actually if you watch any of RepresentitivePress's other video's, he is very much endowed with...well, not anti-semitism, but definately anti-Isaraeli support. His main issues revolve around the reasons of why we were attacked on 9/11. That the reason's behind binLaden and co. were not that they hated our way of life but more so for US Foreign Policy in the Middle East especially with regards to unfettered support of Israel. He maintains that Israel is committing atrocities against the Palestinian people each and every day and the more we blanket them with support the more likely we are to endure future attacks.

It's not the typical mossad did it nonsense, or zionist crap, but more that we need to put our foot down and treat Israel as we would any other country that commits atrocities towards a people, IE sanctions, pulling support, etc...

 

[triforcharity]

And yet, still to this day, not one single member of FDNY who responded that day, have signed this "petition". Not one.

 

[leftysergeant]

I believe this must be the man you were seeking. The FireFighters for 9/11 Truth list him as a confirmed firefighter. I could find no further details other than he was formerly with the U.S. Air Force Special Forces pararescue and that he is now a programmer.

Now find proof that the lying sack of crap has any credentials at all. Those that he lists are not even relevant to fire fighting operations.

(More like extracting commandos from a field operation or picking up downed pilots in enemy territory.)

"I am a programmer and ex Air Force special forces rescue. I was in Poughkeepsie, NY, on 9/11/01 and went down to the site the next Saturday to look around and it had too much dust -- a strong smell of sulfur kind of like the explosives we use to train with."

WTF?

 

[Athyrio]

It's a simple fact: not every scientist is the best scientist in the world. Not every pilot is the best pilot in the world. Not every engineer is the best engineer in the world. Not every fire-fighter is the best fire-fighter in the world.

Now, does that mean that these particular fire-fighters are the ones who suck? Not automatically, no. But when the vast majority of other fire-fighters take a look at what they're saying, and say, "God, that's stupid!", the probability that they are the ones that suck goes way, way up.

Right.

And the first thing that greets these guys when they visit that website is an appeal to melted steel, falling neatly into their basements, and few "small" fires in WTC 7. By signing the petition there, they are signing onto that nonsense. That is the first thing they see.

 

[leftysergeant]

Just had a look at the PDF that is supposed to provide evidence for the faux fire fighters.

To the best of my knowledge, only Lawyer is and actual fire fighter.

If he thinks that the "evidence" in a paper written largely by Paul Joseph Watson is even of use on a rustic latrine, I have to question his understanding of fire science.

 

[000063]

So Andrew, you don't believe that 7 collapsed due to fire, correct? Prior to collapse, there were firemen stating that the building was going to collapse due to fire and set up a safety zone. Why? Were they in on a conspiracy?

Could the firemen see beams around column 79 expanding?

Answer the question. There is obviously the possibility that the hypothetical fake collapse was so good it fooled even the firefighters, but that leads directly to the question of how trained firefighters are "fooled" by something laymen can apparently see through.