OKC Bombing Coverup?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I've seen you make the accusation that Rouser2 does not believe the US landed men on the moon numerous times on these boards. However, I've never read a post of his to that effect. Of course, I could have missed it, so I performed a search on all open forums for "moon landing" with the user name "Rouser2." I got six hits, four of which have him dismissing the question as off-topic or irrelevant. In the other two (found here and here) he denies the allegation.

It seems you may be mistaken. So can you provide a quote of his (perhaps in a new thread so that we don't swing off-topic here) to back up your claim?

But it is rather interesting that he has NEVER directly answered the question. And in your first example, he dismisses 3 accusations instead of just the moon landing hoax. So when I stated he believed their were 27 shooters in Dealy Plaza, does he say he doesn't "believe that" meaning that he believes there were 26? Or 28?

 

[RandFan]

Maybe it would have been a Jewish-Libertarian-Redneck plot of some sort.

I think being an attorney is reason enough to suspect you. Think about it.

 

[Rouser2]

I've seen you make the accusation that Rouser2 does not believe the US landed men on the moon numerous times on these boards. However, I've never read a post of his to that effect. Of course, I could have missed it, so I performed a search on all open forums for "moon landing" with the user name "Rouser2." I got six hits, four of which have him dismissing the question as off-topic or irrelevant. In the other two (found here and here) he denies the allegation.

It seems you may be mistaken. So can you provide a quote of his (perhaps in a new thread so that we don't swing off-topic here) to back up your claim?

Comment: Anyone foolish enough to engage a certified know-nothing nitwit in conversation should only expect to get more nitwittery.

-- Rouser

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Questions for Rouser2:

1) On July 20, 1969, did a US astronaut set foot on the moon?

2) Name ONE person, still living today, who was involved in the assasination of JFK and the subsequent cover up of the crime. Surely of the hundreds invloved, you can name just one?

3) Name ONE person, still living today, who was involved in the OKC bombing and the subsequent cover up of the crime. And Terry Nichols doesn't count.

Prediction - Rouser2 will dodge all three questions (or more likely, ignore them), even though the third is directly related to this thread.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

But it is rather interesting that he has NEVER directly answered the question. And in your first example, he dismisses 3 accusations instead of just the moon landing hoax. So when I stated he believed their were 27 shooters in Dealy Plaza, does he say he doesn't "believe that" meaning that he believes there were 26? Or 28?

!!!

Wait a minute! Never mind JFK and Dealy Plaza. Are you telling me you don't have evidence to back up your contention that Rouser2 believes the moon landing was a hoax?

 

[Regnad Kcin]

Comment: Anyone foolish enough to engage a certified know-nothing nitwit in conversation should only expect to get more nitwittery.

One might've expected a word of thanks for the effort to clear the waters a bit. Instead, I'm called "foolish." Ah well.

Back to lurking mode.

 

[peptoabysmal]

I vote for an unverifiable lead in the original investigation which is now being completely misinterpreted. Grassy knoll stuff.

 

[Rouser2]

Re: Re: OKC Bombing Coverup?

Originally posted by Ranb [/i]


>>It is really no surprise to me that the ATF office was empty when the bomb exploded

From ABC's 20/20, Jan. 17, 1997


Husband of ATF Employee:
"I spotted an ATF officer in a jacket that signified that it was AFT personnel, and he just came out and told me that the ATF wasn't in the building that day. They had been tipped by their pagers not to come to work, which I was flabbergasted. You know, I didn't ask this guy this question. This is just what came out of his mouth."

Tom Jarriel: "Did he go further to explain why they were told not to come to work?"

Husband of ATF Employee: "He just -- they were tipped by their pagers of a bomb threat that morning."

Tom Jarriel: The ATF says their field agents were either in other buildings or had worked late the night before....they say a few ATF senior personnel and clerks were in the building... According to the ATF, agent-in-charge Alex McCAuley was in an elevator along with DEA agent David Schickendanz when the bomb went off. An award naming Schickendanz one of the national policemen of the year would describe the two men surviving a dramatic six-story fall in an elevator. But Duane James and Oscar Johnson say that just didn't happen. They were the elevator maintenance men who arrived 20 minutes after the explosion."

Duane James: Several of us entered and did a floor-by-floor search to see where the elevators were. And we inspected each elevator and made sure nobody was in."

Tom Jarriel: They made photographs and carefully documented their inspection. The pictures show all the safety cables and pulleys worked and kept the elevator from falling. One report has a couple of law enforcement officers getting on the ninth floor and the elevator falling six floors... Couuld that have happened?

Duane James: If you fell six floors and it was a free fall, it'd be like jumping out of a six story building. I'd ask them how long they were in the hospital and how lucky they were to survive. So, yeah, it's kind of humorous."


-- Rouser

 

[LTC8K6]

Why wouldn't Dubya connect OKC to middle eastern terrorists or Iraq proper if there was any evidence allowing him to do so? TWA800 as well.

I would think he'd connect them if it was at all possible to do so. It would help him with the war on terrorism and in Iraq, and with the elections. It would also make democrats look bad, since their admin would have entirely missed the connections.

 

[Luke T.]

Guys, this is hardly woo-woo stuff. This is serious.



It's also reported here:

http://www.azdailysun.com/non_sec/nav_includes/story.cfm?storyID=85825

Both articles have links to the document. Me, I'm startin' the 48-hour clock on this one.

It is woo-woo stuff when rouser2 tags this...

Other witnesses suggest that McVeigh's accomplices included a member of Iraqi Intellligence. Still other witnesses including an ATF informant suggest that the ATF itself had advance knowledge of the plot and made sure their people were not in the building on the day of the scheduled bombing. (See "The Secret Life of Bill Clinton" by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard).

...onto a legitimate news story.

That crap is not in the article you or he or Luceiia linked.

edited to add: And major news outlets are not exempt from printing woo-woo stuff.

 

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by LTC8K6 [/i]


>>Why wouldn't Dubya connect OKC to middle eastern terrorists or Iraq proper if there was any evidence allowing him to do so? TWA800 as well.

Presuming Dubya really knows anything at all about it, such a disclosure would betray government responsibility, at least in part, for the OKC bombing and the subsequent cover-up.


>>I would think he'd connect them if it was at all possible to do so. It would help him with the war on terrorism and in Iraq, and with the elections. It would also make democrats look bad, since their admin would have entirely missed the connections.

That also presumes that the democrats and the republicans are at odds over these kinds of government ineptitudes and really not co-ineptors if not co-pre-emptors of the Bill of Rights a la the Patriot Act and Bill Clinton's Terrorist legislation.

-- Rouser

 

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Luke T. [/i]

>>It is woo-woo stuff when rouser2 tags this...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Other witnesses suggest that McVeigh's accomplices included a member of Iraqi Intellligence. Still other witnesses including an ATF informant suggest that the ATF itself had advance knowledge of the plot and made sure their people were not in the building on the day of the scheduled bombing. (See "The Secret Life of Bill Clinton" by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>...onto a legitimate news story.

>>That crap is not in the article you or he or Luceiia linked.

>>edited to add: And major news outlets are not exempt from printing woo-woo stuff.


So it's not woo-woo stuff if consistent with the official government line, but it becomes "woo-woo" if contrary to the government line, eh? And that includes Tom Jarriel of ABC along with Ambrose Evans-Pritchard of the London Telegram????? Sounds to me like you and some others on this board have a whole lot of "woo-wooing" of your own to explain.

-- Rouser

 

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin [/i]


>>One might've expected a word of thanks for the effort to clear the waters a bit. Instead, I'm called "foolish." Ah well.


So here's a word of "thanks". But how hard is it to tell that when you are conversing with CS you are conversing with a certified nitwit?


-- Rouser

 

[Luke T.]

Re: Re: Re: OKC Bombing Coverup?

Originally posted by Ranb [/i]


>>It is really no surprise to me that the ATF office was empty when the bomb exploded

From ABC's 20/20, Jan. 17, 1997


Husband of ATF Employee:
"I spotted an ATF officer in a jacket that signified that it was AFT personnel, and he just came out and told me that the ATF wasn't in the building that day. They had been tipped by their pagers not to come to work, which I was flabbergasted. You know, I didn't ask this guy this question. This is just what came out of his mouth."

Tom Jarriel: "Did he go further to explain why they were told not to come to work?"

Husband of ATF Employee: "He just -- they were tipped by their pagers of a bomb threat that morning."

Tom Jarriel: The ATF says their field agents were either in other buildings or had worked late the night before....they say a few ATF senior personnel and clerks were in the building... According to the ATF, agent-in-charge Alex McCAuley was in an elevator along with DEA agent David Schickendanz when the bomb went off. An award naming Schickendanz one of the national policemen of the year would describe the two men surviving a dramatic six-story fall in an elevator. But Duane James and Oscar Johnson say that just didn't happen. They were the elevator maintenance men who arrived 20 minutes after the explosion."

Duane James: Several of us entered and did a floor-by-floor search to see where the elevators were. And we inspected each elevator and made sure nobody was in."

Tom Jarriel: They made photographs and carefully documented their inspection. The pictures show all the safety cables and pulleys worked and kept the elevator from falling. One report has a couple of law enforcement officers getting on the ninth floor and the elevator falling six floors... Couuld that have happened?

Duane James: If you fell six floors and it was a free fall, it'd be like jumping out of a six story building. I'd ask them how long they were in the hospital and how lucky they were to survive. So, yeah, it's kind of humorous."


-- Rouser

First, you need to place a link to this transcript.

Second, an elevator is not going to fall six stories before the built-in safety systems stop it from falling.

The safety systems are designed to lock the elevator against the guide rail almost immediately.

So if this Duane James was truly some kind of elevator expert and someone presented the above scenario to him, his first response would have been that fact. What exactly are his qualifications to speak on the matter?

 

[Rob Lister]

Re: Re: Re: Re: OKC Bombing Coverup?

An award naming Schickendanz one of the national policemen of the year would describe the two men surviving a dramatic six-story fall in an elevator.

Emphisis mine. Would describe? Why not 'described'? My skeptometer isn't pegging but it's certainly in the red.

On edit, my skeptometer went back to cal-null. I've read enough awards to know that the actual truth of the matter means little to the text writer of an award.

Was he in an elevator? Probably.

Did the elevator scaffolding collapse during the explosion? Probably.

Did it 'freefall' six floors? Probably not.

 

[NightG1]

Originally posted by Luke T. [/i]

>>It is woo-woo stuff when rouser2 tags this...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Other witnesses suggest that McVeigh's accomplices included a member of Iraqi Intellligence. Still other witnesses including an ATF informant suggest that the ATF itself had advance knowledge of the plot and made sure their people were not in the building on the day of the scheduled bombing. (See "The Secret Life of Bill Clinton" by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>...onto a legitimate news story.

>>That crap is not in the article you or he or Luceiia linked.

>>edited to add: And major news outlets are not exempt from printing woo-woo stuff.


So it's not woo-woo stuff if consistent with the official government line, but it becomes "woo-woo" if contrary to the government line, eh? And that includes Tom Jarriel of ABC along with Ambrose Evans-Pritchard of the London Telegram????? Sounds to me like you and some others on this board have a whole lot of "woo-wooing" of your own to explain.

-- Rouser

No. It's woo-woo stuff if the only evidence that supports it is conjecture or the "gosh, isn't it odd that..." kind of creative thinking or the ubiquitous "unnamed ATF source". All the physical evidence backs the government's "case" and is only opposed by people who have a vested interest in this 5 year-old conspiracy staying in the news. Tom Jarriel of ABC News and his British colleague are journalists and not authorities I would respect in this instance.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

So here's a word of "thanks".

You're welcome.

But how hard is it to tell that when you are conversing with CS you are conversing with a certified nitwit?

I don't see how it matters much. I prefer to address content rather than the content provider -- even a broken clock being correct twice a day, and all that.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

So here's a word of "thanks". But how hard is it to tell that when you are conversing with CS you are conversing with a certified nitwit?

But still sane enough to make you look like a dumbass.

Questions for Rouser2:

1) On July 20, 1969, did a US astronaut set foot on the moon?

2) Name ONE person, still living today, who was involved in the assasination of JFK and the subsequent cover up of the crime. Surely of the hundreds invloved, you can name just one?

3) Name ONE person, still living today, who was involved in the OKC bombing and the subsequent cover up of the crime. And Terry Nichols doesn't count.

Prediction - Rouser2 will dodge all three questions (or more likely, ignore them), even though the third is directly related to this thread.

Looks like I'm right on that last one.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

Central Scrutinizer:

You seem to want to persist with your insinuations, even though you haven't presented evidence to back them up. Nevertheless, even if you proved that Rouser2 somewhere stated that lime Jello is made from the collected and evaporated tears of the Indian elephant, how does that relate to the subject of this thread?

Let me put it another way: Are you suggesting that if a person believes one thing to be true that any other belief they might happen to have is therefore automatically faulty, if not wrong?

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
Let me put it another way: Are you suggesting that if a person believes one thing to be true that any other belief they might happen to have is therefore automatically faulty, if not wrong?

That depends on the beliefs. If I know someone holds an incorrect belief about basketball, I don't consider that good reason to doubt his knowledge of tax law. Nobody is an expert on everything; all of us are ignorant in some areas.

On the other hand, if he demonstrates a belief that suggests he may be prone to paranoid conspiracy theories, maybe he believes that ordinary contrails left by passing jets may actually be chemtrails dispersed by the government to test chemical/biological warfare on an unsuspecting population; I will certainly pay less attention to similar theories he may propose that involve secret government cover-ups.

Further, if a person proclaims an incorrect belief, is corrected, is shown evidence that he is wrong, and still persists in arguing his incorrect belief, then we have reason to doubt his rationality.

An incorrect belief may only represent an error in knowledge, or it may demonstrate a faulty reasoning process.