Okay, convince me Jesus existed.

But is there any example -- apart from this -- of a movement existing without some living person to kick it off -- that is, without everyone knowing it is a myth.
Heeeeeere's Johnny:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Frum

It is commonly believed that the Vanuatu cargo cult began during WW2 and that its central figure was based on a US soldier. That's not true. It actually dates to the 1930s. Some oral traditions say that John Frum was a man to begin with, some say he was a vision that was later reified in folklore as a man who lived. The latter is exactly what Christ Myth theorists propose about Jesus.

And I don't know how to make the concept any plainer to you than that.
 
Myth doesn't necesarily mean that. It could be that Jesus was a real flesh and blood human being, but there are a bunch of outrageous stories about him.

Like I said, considering that Jesus seems to have been a person of no particular importance in his lifetime, it's probably reasonable to assume this is the case, for lack of any other data either way.

So yes, it boils down to historical Jesus, yes or no. If he didn't exist than it's certain the MJ is just too absurd to entertain.

True, but that sort of goes without saying.
 
Heeeeeere's Johnny:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Frum

It is commonly believed that the Vanuatu cargo cult began during WW2 and that its central figure was based on a US soldier. That's not true. It actually dates to the 1930s. Some oral traditions say that John Frum was a man to begin with, some say he was a vision that was later reified in folklore as a man who lived. The latter is exactly what Christ Myth theorists propose about Jesus.

And I don't know how to make the concept any plainer to you than that.

John Frum was pretty clearly a composite character. The issue here is that Paul (taking him at his word) personally knew people who knew Jesus. They could be lying, but why? Jesus' message overall wasn't really the sort that you could build a fraud around. Paul's... maybe. Hard to say. Paul certainly made a big deal about being self-supporting himself and the churches he worked with being communal in nature. If it was a fraud, it was not what you'd consider traditionally profitable. Note too that what we can know about Jesus through the authenticated Pauline letters as well as Q and Thomas doesn't seem to be overly supernatural (except Paul's conversion story, and that only as it appears in Acts). It's not hard to see the usual messianic cliches attaching as Christianity got bigger.
 
A composite, yes, but a composite of what? An islander says "I saw John Frum last night and he told me ..." Did the islander see this awake or in a dream? Does he care about the difference? Will the people listening to the story think to ask?
 
Gday,

The issue here is that Paul (taking him at his word) personally knew people who knew Jesus.

No he didn't.
Paul said he met people who OTHERS later believed had met Jesus.

But Paul says merely that he met people who also allegedly had VISIONS of Jesus.

And Paul makes it clear he is just as much an apostle, because HE TOO has SEEN the Lord.

It was all VISIONS.
There is nothing in Paul about anyone who met Jesus PERSONALLY.


K.
 
BrianX

You opine that
Paul certainly made a big deal about being self-supporting himself and the churches he worked with being communal in nature. If it was a fraud, it was not what you'd consider traditionally profitable.
That certainly wasn't the view of Jeremy Bentham. See his "Not Paul But Jesus", (1823) http://www.archive.org/stream/notpaulbutjesus pp xiv, 397-8. And we have the disquieting 1 Cor 9
7 Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink the milk? 8 Do I say this merely on human authority? Doesn’t the Law say the same thing? 9 For it is written in the Law of Moses: “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.” Is it about oxen that God is concerned? 10 Surely he says this for us, doesn’t he? Yes, this was written for us, because whoever plows and threshes should be able to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest. 11 If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12 If others have this right of support from you, shouldn’t we have it all the more?
To be sure he adds, evidently as a concession for this occasion, but not as an abandonment of the principle
But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ.

Organisations that are "communal in nature" offer the richest field for exploitation by "Dear Leaders" of all kinds, religious or political, who contrive to exercise control over them. Need I expand upon the reasons for this? We don't even need to wait for Paul, but encounter this phenomenon, at least in its embryonic phase, in the account of the earliest church, given in Acts 4: 32-37, and in the horrifying Acts 5: 1-11.
 
John Frum was pretty clearly a composite character. The issue here is that Paul (taking him at his word) personally knew people who knew Jesus. They could be lying, but why? Jesus' message overall wasn't really the sort that you could build a fraud around. Paul's... maybe. Hard to say. Paul certainly made a big deal about being self-supporting himself and the churches he worked with being communal in nature. If it was a fraud, it was not what you'd consider traditionally profitable. Note too that what we can know about Jesus through the authenticated Pauline letters as well as Q and Thomas doesn't seem to be overly supernatural (except Paul's conversion story, and that only as it appears in Acts). It's not hard to see the usual messianic cliches attaching as Christianity got bigger.

If you were to build a myth about someone supposed to have lived a century ago, would you claim to have met him personally? Of course not. Might you claim to have met someone who had met him? That would make sense.

About fraud, people are not always after money. Finally, Paul could have believed in his own story. Some people are driven by delusion. Doesn't make them right.

Hans
 
Gday,

I have checked the background of NT scholars that I read about, and I have often asked for examples of NON Christian NT scholars.

The actual numbers would be about 95-98% or so.
(Of course 99.9% was a magic number.)

So really -
how many NT scholars can YOU name who are NOT
"faithful Christian believers and/or work in Christian organisations"
(Please try to avoid working it up into emotive phrases like "completely biased". I didn't say that.)

Kapyong, if I want to read books written by labor historians regarding labor history do I need to check and see if they are capitalists? How they vote? Or should I look at the work as a whole and judge it on the methods used and the merits of the work?

You have stated that you have had a vision of a "spiritual Christ". Are you not biased? What makes your vision and belief not influence your conclusions?


McGrath's behaviour is like a petulant school-girl. It's a bit rich for him to talk about scholarly ways, frankly.

Neil Godfrey's work stands head-and shoulders above McGrath, and many others NT 'scholars' in my view.

But sure - I hope more attention, and even formal peer-review, is paid to Doherty's work. But his ideas should ideally stand on their merit - and the peer-review issue is mostly an excuse to AVOID his work I reckon. Considering the way Doherty has been abused by alleged 'scholars' such as McGrath, I understand his reluctance. The guy is getting sick of having meta-arguments - arguments about HIM and about his procedue etc. - while avoiding his actual argument about MJ.

Did you read Thomas Verenna's post? He has called out McGrath before over his behavior and quite clearly states he has warned McGrath about "hyperbolic comments" and "fallacious distinctions" in his posts. I linked to his blog just to show that someone who doesn't agree with McGrath's conclusion (HJ), who doesn't care for his behavior, still points out how ridiculous it is for authors like Godfrey and Doherty to rage against some academic conspiracy. Would you please read it and perhaps comment on the points he makes?
 
Gday all,

If you were to build a myth about someone supposed to have lived a century ago, would you claim to have met him personally? Of course not. Might you claim to have met someone who had met him? That would make sense.
About fraud, people are not always after money. Finally, Paul could have believed in his own story. Some people are driven by delusion. Doesn't make them right.
Hans

Pardon me MRC_Hans, I'd like to make some comments here :-)

Paul's Story
I think it's crystal clear that Paul did believe his own story. But what WAS Paul's story about Jesus?
Paul didn't place Jesus a century before him - in fact, Paul didn't place Jesus in time at all. Nor did he give a place for Jesus - no connection between Jesus and Jerusalem is made in Paul. Nor does Paul connect Jesus with any persons - he never mentions Joseph or Mary or Lazarus or Herod or Pilate (apart from an interpolation.) Nor does Paul say Jesus did any healings or miracles. Paul does not even once mention the empty tomb. Anyone reading Paul's letters - even as early as the 60s or 70s would find nothing to challenge on a historical basis. Furthermore - Paul makes it pretty clear where he learned about Jesus - from scripture and through revelation; also saying it came from "no man." I think it's quite clear that Paul is simply not talking about a historical person at all - but rather a spiritual entity that he truly believes is real.

The Gospel Story - when?
Of course the Gospel stories have all those details - the names, and places, the empty tomb etc. But when did these Gospel stories become known?
Surprisingly, even the Christian communities apparently didn't hear of these Gospel stories until about mid 2nd century. For instance - the "empty tomb" is not mentioned until around mid 2nd century - over a century after the alleged events. This pattern is repeated for many of the details found in the Gospels, and we have Christian books dating from every decade from the 60s on. Please have a look at this table I made to show this pattern :
http://members.iinet.net.au/~dal.sahota/qdj/FOC/Table.html
No adverts, no spam, no nasties - just a plain text page. I created this table. It shows the data clearly in one look. Please look :-)

A Galaxy far far away
Maybe the Gospels were written in the period 65-110, but the stories only became KNOWN later - over a period from early 2nd century to mid-late 2nd century. Between then and Jesus's time was a century and more, including two wars with the Romans, the destruction of the Temple, the dispersal of the Jews, and Judea being erased from the map! Who could challenge the Gospel stories? No-one was left who would know any better.

Challenges anyway
Of course every sort of challenge and criticism and abuse that COULD be made - WAS made. Christianity was attacked as myths and fictions and superstition and lies and wickedness. And everyone just ASSUMED Jesus existed - like they do today.

K.
 
I don't know if he existed, nor do I care, nor do I think it would make a difference. Even if proven to have existed, he'd be nothing more than a fraud, and if not that, a nutjob with delusions. People can be convinced of almost anything today, think back 2000 years ago when people were even more superstitious.

This.
 
Why sure! I just offered one scenario that seemed possible. It could be any of dozens of others, including complete fiction. However, most of the stuff was first described around AD 100. At that time, it might have been risky to go for complete fiction, as there might still be conflicting legends and stories about. So I am suggesting that they built on some real events and people.

Personally, I don't really care much.

Hans

1. At that time, they had no problem inventing stuff like a world-wide, hours-long solar eclipse on a full moon, a physical impossibility, happening a mere half a century before. Read Matthew. And yes, any educated guy already knew it's impossible and that none were ever observed.

It's stuff that you didn't even need witnesses from Galilee to check. You just had to ask some local philosopher (who would know about astronomical events) or, really, any old guy. "Hey, grandpa, was there an hours long solar eclipse? C'mon, you must have been in your prime back then. You'd remember." That's it.

Nobody bothered checking.

They also had no problems inventing a 3-days long zombie invasion in a MAJOR city like Jerusalem. Again, read Matthew. If that had ever happened, it would be easier to check than the existence of an obscure backwater rabbi.

Or stuff like a bright star lighting the night as day, for months in a row. Again, in a major city, not on some distant island. That would be easy to check.

Or such BS as a puppet ruler of a vassal of Rome actually massacring babies, while under Roman jurisdiction.

Etc.

Frankly, if they could get away with that kind of lies, they could get away with ANYTHING.

Seriously, the whole argument about supposed imaginary witnesses around, which would totally limit the possibilities to make stuff up, is silly considering the sheer number of gigantic lies in the text. Their audience didn't even have problems swallowing stuff that they could check themselves, and quite trivially so.

2. Plus, here's a thought: if you're going to sell someone a lie, a fictive protagonist makes it actually EASIER. If your Jesus Bar Joseph is real, then you actually do risk running into people going "wait, I knew that guy. That's not what he was saying." If you're going to have an obscure rabbi anyway, not some historical public figure, as a protagonist for your story, actually going full fictive is the safer route.

Think John Frum, since that one gets mentioned lots. If they actually had a verifiable real soldier as a protagonist, say "corporal John Adams from Baltimore, 23rd Marines Regiment", it would be trivial to dispel it. Someone would show around and go, "wait, I was John's squad mate, and he didn't do that stuff. And that's not what he was like at all." But if it's some John Frum that nobody can find or knows anything about, the simple argument from ignorance can keep someone believing in John Frum just because it hasn't been disproven.

The being unable to locate any real person or information, is what makes it like trying to nail jello to a wall. No matter how many people or documents you can find that never knew a John Frum, and show them to a believer, well, it just shows that they didn't know John Frum, not that he didn't exist.
 
Paul didn't place Jesus a century before him - in fact, Paul didn't place Jesus in time at all. Nor did he give a place for Jesus - no connection between Jesus and Jerusalem is made in Paul. Nor does Paul connect Jesus with any persons - he never mentions Joseph or Mary or Lazarus or Herod or Pilate (apart from an interpolation.)


Wait, what?

Galatians 1:19 said:
But of the other apostles I saw no one, except James, the Lord’s brother.


This certainly seems to indicate Paul met someone who not only knew Jesus, but was related to him!
 
It doesn't seem to me that people in position of authority could keep a secret for 2000 years and someone in authority would have known that there never was a human being at the heart of Christianity like there exists a single human being at he heart of Buddism, Islam, etc.

Yes, there is a human being there. It's Paul. Just like for Mormonism it's Joseph Smith, and like for Scientology it's L Ron Hubbard. It's not like they've been keeping it a secret that they don't actually have any document directly from Jesus, ya know? So I'd rate that as one of the silliest arguments ever.
 
Wait, what?




This certainly seems to indicate Paul met someone who not only knew Jesus, but was related to him!

Paul uses "brother" for Christians repeatedly, and at one point calls the whole congregation "brothers of the Lord." E.g., PHILIPPIANS 1:14. Seriously. There is no indication whether he meant biological kinship for James, since it's the exact same word used.
 
Wait, what?




This certainly seems to indicate Paul met someone who not only knew Jesus, but was related to him!

Though this is not unanswerable, it is one of the better arguments contra Doherty's case for MJ et al.
 
Gday,

Wait, what?

"But of the other apostles I saw no one, except James, the Lord’s brother."

This certainly seems to indicate Paul met someone who not only knew Jesus, but was related to him!

Only if you assume the phrase "Lord's brother" actually means "physical brother of Jesus". But Paul frequently uses the term "brother" in a non-literal way :


1 Cor 1:1 Sosthenes is "brother" - not literal.

Col. 1:1 Timothy is "brother" - not literal.

1 Cor 15:6 500 "brothers" - not literal.

Phil 1:14 "brothers in the Lord" - not literal.

1 Cor 9:5 "the brothers of the Lord", followed by "sister wife".
Sister wife is clearly NOT literal, why would the "brothers" be?

1 Cor 6:5 "brothers" and "brethren" - not literal.

Eph. 6:21 Tychicus "dear brother and faithful srevant in the Lord" - not literal.

Heb 2:11-12 For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying,
“I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.”

Jesus is not ashamed to call believers "brothers".
Not literal.


K.
 
1. At that time, they had no problem inventing stuff like a world-wide, hours-long solar eclipse on a full moon, a physical impossibility, happening a mere half a century before. Read

*snip*


The being unable to locate any real person or information, is what makes it like trying to nail jello to a wall. No matter how many people or documents you can find that never knew a John Frum, and show them to a believer, well, it just shows that they didn't know John Frum, not that he didn't exist.

And

Kapyong said:
Pardon me MRC_Hans, I'd like to make some comments here :-)

Paul's Story
I think it's crystal clear that Paul did believe his own story. But what WAS Paul's story about Jesus?
*snip*
Challenges anyway
Of course every sort of challenge and criticism and abuse that COULD be made - WAS made. Christianity was attacked as myths and fictions and superstition and lies and wickedness. And everyone just ASSUMED Jesus existed - like they do today.

Both good and educated answers, but I think you miss my point: I'm into falsification. A believer says something like "Paul wrote ..... so ...... must be a fact". That is a falsifiable scenario, and to falsify it, all you need is to provide a different scenario that fits the observations.

I'm not nearly as well versed in Bible history as you guys (although I sometimes think I'm better than some believers), and I don't pretend that my scenarios are really any closer to the truth than those of the believers. The point is that I can explain the observations, using a different, and mundane scenario, thus falsifying the claim that there is only one interpretation. In fact there is an almost unlimited number of plausible scenarios.

I'm aware that this is probably lost on believers. ;)

Hans
 
Gday,

Kapyong, if I want to read books written by labor historians regarding labor history do I need to check and see if they are capitalists? How they vote? Or should I look at the work as a whole and judge it on the methods used and the merits of the work?

Oh please - that's a terrible analogy and you know it :-)
There is no need to ignore my actual words and step off into silly analogies or exaggerated claims, like you've done twice now.

My claim is quite clear - the vast majority of NT scholars would risk their friends and reputation and even jobs if they suddenly announced they believed Jesus was a myth - because they are faithful Christians and/or work for Christian organisations.

I don't think such a claim is radical, or untrue - it's reasonable, and I think it's clearly true. The actual numbers maybe argued, sure; but it's pretty clear that a person who held an honorary priest-hood, or who sat in a religious chair, or even just members of a unversity with a religious patron, would be in big trouble if they suddenly denied Jesus.

If you disagree, feel free to argue why - but please no more strawmen or broken analogies.


You have stated that you have had a vision of a "spiritual Christ". Are you not biased? What makes your vision and belief not influence your conclusions?

No. I did not claim any vision of a "spiritual Christ".
Please - a little more care in reading my posts, may I suggest :-)

My point then was about how it was possible for someone like Paul to truly believe in a Jesus who existed, who was REAL, but not yet physical. In short, I wanted to emphasize that the word "real" does not necesarily mean "physical" and "historical". In fact this word "real" is so vague as to be useless - I suggest we avoid it.


Did you read Thomas Verenna's post? He has called out McGrath before over his behavior and quite clearly states he has warned McGrath about "hyperbolic comments" and "fallacious distinctions" in his posts. I linked to his blog just to show that someone who doesn't agree with McGrath's conclusion (HJ), who doesn't care for his behavior, still points out how ridiculous it is for authors like Godfrey and Doherty to rage against some academic conspiracy. Would you please read it and perhaps comment on the points he makes?

Well .. I don't have too much to say on what Tom said, Doherty said, Neil said....

But I don't think they would actually claim "conspiracy", but people LOVE to use that word :-) Of course there can be an entrenched position, especially in religious matters - and Jesus is a the perfect sacred cow of our culture.


K.
 
Both good and educated answers, but I think you miss my point: I'm into falsification. A believer says something like "Paul wrote ..... so ...... must be a fact". That is a falsifiable scenario, and to falsify it, all you need is to provide a different scenario that fits the observations.

I don't think "falsifiability" ever meant "argument from ignorance", though.

I mean, "There is a widow in Nigeria who needs my bank account to transfer 80 million dollars" is equally falsifiable, and there is even an observation there: the emails from said widow. But sometimes it's ok to just conclude that the source is too unreliable to support the positive claim that such a widow exists, rather than have to falsify it.

But let's see... other equally good scenarios for Paul include:


1. Paul is a con-man, just like Joseph Smith, Ron Hubbard, and pretty much the majority of people who ever started a religion.

Even the motive is basically there, since suddenly we see Paul traveling all over the place and being treated as a superstar. Plus, he's obviously having no problems staying away from whatever business he had in Jerusalem, and even travels some sort of a personal assistant he dictates letters to. He seems to be making a better living out of it, than, say, if he kept kneading leather in crap like a leatherworker (if we believe Acts, which is a big if.) Probably not a luxurious living, but even just being able to travel and be fed on someone else's expense is still more than most people back then would get.

Red flags there would include, basically, that not many normal people would keep avoiding straight questions and do a dozen pages of handwaving instead of answering (like the donation money issue he had with the Corinthians), nor would feel a need to preemptively tell you you can't check their claims. You don't hear people saying stuff like "I studied in Paris, but nobody there would recognize me, of course. And then I got encouraged to write a book by some important guys you wouldn't know anyway." Yet Paul does exactly that. He supposedly persecuted Christians... but nobody would know his face. He got some people in Jerusalem to agree with him... but he doesn't say who, or what authority they had to greenlight Paul's apostleship, or anything. He just says they looked important.


2. Paul is genuinely schizophrenic.

For a start he's obsessed with Jesus, but never shows any interest in sharing or even finding out anything about Jesus. He even insists that he didn't get his message from any man, and according to his own chronology he was preaching for years before even meeting Peter (or any other apostle.) It's like meeting a guy who's obsessed with Eminem and rants for hours about Eminem, but isn't even interested in any information about the singer, the music, or the lyrics, nor is sharing any. That's a schizophrenic kind of behaviour.

Paul's logic is also bizarre to the extreme. Literally stuff like the law is good, but we keep it by being Christians instead of doing what it says, but we're not rejecting the law, and it's good, but it's a curse from which Christ saves us, but it's still good for keeping crooks straight, but we don't have to keep it, but actually we keep it by being Christians. No, really, that screwed up in the head.

He also reads whole pages of meaning specifically about him and his congregation, and meant for him and his congregation, in half-sentences said by minor characters in the OT, just like Charles Manson would find cryptic prophecies in Beatles lyrics.

In fact he even spells out something which, if taken at face value, pretty much is what Kapyong and Doherty and the gang are trying to tell us: Jesus is revealed by those cryptic passages in the OT. That's where Paul finds Jesus. In his vision and reading some paragraphs in a schizophrenic way, not as a real person.

And if we take some passages from him at face value, he talked to Jesus after that first vision again and even got at least one detailed answer. Also in one place he actually claims to have been stoned, and in another place that he himself was crucified and is now dead and is some kind of zombie animated by Jesus's will. If you take that literally, Paul is a textbook case of Cotard delusion. Which incidentally also often includes delusion of immortality resulting from that undead condition.


Etc. That's not even the only good scenarios, but just for illustration sake, they'll have to do.
 

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