punshhh
Philosopher
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2010
- Messages
- 5,295
Thanks, I was just checking that I understood you correctly. I agree in essence with what you are saying.
Okay, convince me Jesus existed.
- Thread starter Buckyball
- Start date
dafydd
Banned
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2008
- Messages
- 35,398
He believed it,yes but all he had was a seizure. Odd to think that the christian church is mostly built on a man's disfunctioning brain.
Kapyong
Graduate Poster
Gday,
Sadly, Bill has NO IDEA what the MJ theory is about, and he won't read posts, and he refuses to learn. Oh well.
Nothing to do with the MJ theory.
Nothing to do with the MJ theory.
Nothing to do with the MJ theory.
Sadly, Bill has one only thing to say :
Jesus could NOT be a lie hoax or conspiracy,
therefore he is real and TRUE !
Hallelujah !
Boring...
K.
Sadly, Bill has NO IDEA what the MJ theory is about, and he won't read posts, and he refuses to learn. Oh well.
Nothing to do with the MJ theory.
Nothing to do with the MJ theory.
Nothing to do with the MJ theory.
Sadly, Bill has one only thing to say :
Jesus could NOT be a lie hoax or conspiracy,
therefore he is real and TRUE !
Hallelujah !
Boring...
K.
dafydd
Banned
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2008
- Messages
- 35,398
He can't. If he ever existed he is brown bread now. Game over. I have no idea what these 'spiritual entities' are. Woospeak,methinks.
Kapyong
Graduate Poster
Gday,
In one of the MANY writers of the period :
WRITERS WHO SHOULD HAVE MENTIONED JESUS
PHILO
Philo Judaeus wrote very many books about Jewish religion and history, in the 30s and 40s, living in Alexandria, and visiting Jerusalem.
Philo was contemporary with Jesus and Paul,
Philo visited Jerusalem and had family there,
he developed the concept of the Logos and the holy spirit,
he was considered a Christian by some later Christians,
he wrote a great deal about related times and peoples and issues.
If Jesus had existed, Philo would almost certainly have written about him and his teachings.
Rating: SHOULD have mentioned Jesus or his teachings, but did not.
Weight: 5
WRITERS WHO PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE MENTIONED JESUS
SENECA
Lucius Annaeus Seneca wrote many philosophic (Stoic) and satirical books and letters (and Tragedies) in Rome.
Seneca wrote a great deal on many subjects and mentioned many people. He was a Stoic, a school of thought considered sympathetic to Christian teachings.
In fact,
early Christians seemed to have expected him to discuss Christianity - they FORGED letters between him and Paul.
How else to explain these forgeries, except as Christian responses to a surprising VOID in Seneca's writings?
Rating: PROBABLY SHOULD have mentioned Jesus or his teachings, but did not.
Weight: 4
PLUTARCH
Plutarch of Chaeronea wrote many works on history and philosophy in Rome and Boetia in about 90-120 CE.
Plutarch wrote about influential Roman figures, including some contemporary to Jesus,
Plutarch wrote on Oracles (prophesies),
Plutarch wrote on moral issues,
Plutarch wrote on spiritual and religious issues.
If Plutarch knew of Jesus or the Gospel events, it is highly likely he would have mentioned them.
Rating: PROBABLY SHOULD have mentioned Jesus or his teachings, but did not.
Weight: 4
JUSTUS
Justus of Tiberias wrote a History of Jewish Kings in Galilee in late 1st century.
Photius read Justus in the 8th century and noted that he did not mention anything: "He (Justus of Tiberias) makes not one mention of Jesus, of what happened to him, or of the wonderful works that he did."
It is surprising that a contemporary writer from the very region of Jesus' alleged acts did not mention him.
Rating: PROBABLY SHOULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 3
WRITERS WHO COULD HAVE MENTIONED JESUS
DAMIS
Damis wrote most of what we know about Apollonius of Tyana. He was a philospher and mystic exactly contemporary with Jesus and who was rather similar to Jesus - enough for some authors to argue they were one and the same person.
If Damis/Apollonius had known of Jesus, he could have easily have been mentioned as a competitor. A story in which Apollonius bested Jesus in debate would not be un-expected.
Rating: COULD easily have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 2
PLINY THE ELDER
Gaius Plinius Secundus wrote a large Natural History in Rome c.80CE
Pliny wrote a great deal - his Natural History mentions HUNDREDS of people, major & minor - writers, leaders, poets, artists - often with as much reason as mentioning Jesus. (Of course like many other writers he talks about astronomy too, but never mentions the Star of Bethlehem or the darkness.)
It is not at all un-reasoble for this prolific writer to have mentioned Jesus or the Gospels events.
Rating: COULD easily have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 2
JUVENAL
Decimus Junius Juvenalis wrote sixteen satires in Rome in early 2nd century.
Lucian the Roman satirist DID ridicule Christians (as gullible, easily lead fools) in mid 2nd century. By the later time of Lucian, Christianity obviously was known to the wider Roman community. Whereas Juvenal wrote at a time when Christianity had only just started to rate a few tiny mentions (Pliny the Younger, Tacitus.)
Rating: COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 2
MARTIAL
Marcus Valerius Martialus wrote satires in Rome in late 1st century.
Martial wrote a large body of poems about all sorts of things. He mentions many people, places, stories and issues - major and minor, within and without Rome, such as :
Stoic suffering of discomfort and death,
virgin's blood,
Roman funerary practices,
the way accused men look in court,
Roman soldiers mocking their leaders,
anointing the body with oil,
Molorchus the good shepherd,
Tutilius a minor rhetorician, Nestor the wise,
the (ugly) Temple of Jupiter,
This shows Martial mentions or alludes to many and varied people and issues.
He could easily have mentioned Jesus (or the Gospel events).
Rating: COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 2
PETRONIUS
Petronius Arbiter wrote a large novel (a bawdy drama) the "Satyricon" c.60CE.
Petronius mentions all sorts of people and events in this large work, including :
a CRUCIFIXION !
a scene where guards are posted to stop a corpse being stolen,
a tomb scene of someone mistaking a person for a supernatural vision,
gods such as Bacchus and Ceres,
writers such as Sophocles and Euripides and Epicurus,
books such as the Iliad,
Romans such as Cato and Pompey,
people such as Hannibal, and the Governor of Ephesus,
female charioteers, slaves, merchants, Arabs, lawyers
baths, shipwrecks, meals...
This large work, cover MANY topics, including a CRUCIFIXION, and it was written just as Peter and Paul had come to Rome, allegedly. It could easily have mentioned Jesus.
Rating: COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 2
PAUSANIAS
Pausanias wrote the massive Guide to Greece in mid 2nd century.
Pausanias' work is vast and the index covers over 70 pages of small print, I estimate a couple of THOUSAND names are mentioned. He mentions a large number of minor figues from within and without Greece.
He even mentions a Jewish prophetess - a figure so minor she is essentially unknown: "Then later than Demo there was a prophetic woman reared among the Jews beyond Palestine; her name was Sabbe." Phokis, Book X, 12, [5]
Pausanias also mentions the Jewish rebellion under Hadrian.
Rating: COULD easily have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 2
EPICTETUS
Epictetus is known for several books of Stoic religious and philosophic discourses in the early 2nd century. One of his disciples was Arrian, and thanks to him much of Epictetus' works are extant.
Epictetus DID apparently mention "the Galileans", which could be a reference to :
the early Christians,
or
the revolt under Judas the Galilean in early 1st century.
Either way, this shows quite clearly that Epictetus could refer to a figure such as Jesus.
Rating: COULD easily have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 2
AELIUS ARISTIDES
Aelius Aristides the Greek Orator spoke and wrote a History of Rome and other subjects - he seems to refer to the Christians as "impious men from Palestine" (Orations 46.2)
If he could mention people from Palestine, he could easily have mentioned Jesus.
Rating: COULD easily have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 2
FRONTO
Marcus Cornelius Fronto of Rome wrote several letters in mid 2nd century.
According to Minucius Felix, he scandalised rites practiced by Roman Christians - so he could easily have mentioned Jesus.
Rating: COULD easily have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 2
PERSIUS
Aulus Persius Flaccus wrote six fairly long satires in Rome in the mid 1st century, of a rather philosophic nature.
The argument that no Roman satirist could be expected to mention Jesus, is proven wrong by the case of a Roman satirist who DID mention Jesus (but only as echoes of later Christian beliefs.)
Persius wrote a reasonably large body of work that mentions many people and issues.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 1
DIO CHRYSOSTOM
Dio Chrysostom (Cocceianus Dio) wrote many works and gave many speeches in various Roman and Greek centres in late 1st century, of which 80 survive e.g. the Euboicus.
Dio wrote a large number of works in the late 1st century - he certainly could have mentioned Jesus, if he knew of him.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 1
AULUS GELLIUS
Aulus Gellius wrote Attic Nights (Nights in Athens), a large compendium of many topics and which mentioned many people.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 1
LUCIUS APULEIUS
Lucius Apuleius wrote the Metamorphoses (the Golden Ass or Transformations of Lucius) and many other spiritual, historical, and philosophic works - several survive.
Rating: COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 1
MARCUS AURELIUS
Marcus Aelius Aurelius Antoninus wrote the Stoic Meditations in mid 2nd century - he (apparently) refers once to the Christians in XI, 3.
Rating: COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 1
MUSONIUS RUFUS
C. Musonius Rufus wrote on Stoic philosophy in Rome in mid 1st century.
Rating: COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 1
HIEROCLES
Hierocles of Alexandria wrote on Stoic philosophy in late 1st century.
Rating: COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 1
MAXIMUS of TYRE
Cassius Maximus Tyrius, a Greek NeoPlatonic philosopher, wrote many works in mid 2nd century.
Rating: COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 1
ARRIAN
Arrian wrote a History of Alexander c.120CE.
The subject is not related, but Arrian wrote a very large work which mentioned HUNDREDS of people, some not from Alexander's time.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5
APPIAN
Appian wrote a large Roman History (from the Gracchi to Caesar) in mid 2nd century.
It's not particularly likely that this specific writer would mention Jesus.
But,
he wrote a LARGE work which mentions HUNDREDS of people.
Appian does mention some issues of HIS day (mid 2nd century), e.g. a decision by Hadrian.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5
THEON of SMYRNA
Theon of Smyrna wrote on astronomy/philosophy in early 2nd century.
Theon wrote about philosophy. If Jesus and his teachings were known, it is entirely plausible for to mention them.
Theon also wrote about astronomy.
If he had heard about the Star of Bethlehem or the Darkness (as an event, or from the Gospels) he could easily have mentioned it.
Apologists frequently cite Phlegon and Thallus, astronomers who mentioned eclipses (but NOT Jesus or the Gospel events, that is merely later Christian wishful thinking) as evidence for Jesus.
An astronomer could easily be expected to mention those incidents, especially when apologists claim other astronomers of the period did exactly that.
The silence of early astronomers about the Star of Bethlehem or the crucifixion darkness argues these "events" were unknown until later.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5
QUINTILIAN
Marcus Fabius Quintilianus, wrote the "Education of an Orator" in Rome in late 1st century.
One of the things Jesus was allegedly noted for was his PUBLIC SPEECHES - e.g. the Sermon on the Mount, which supposedly drew and influenced large crowds.
If Quintilian had heard of Jesus or the Gospels events, he could have mentioned the allegedly famous speeches of Jesus.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5
LUCIUS ANNAEUS FLORUS
Lucius Annaeus Florus wrote an Epitome of Roman History.
Although not directly on subject, Florus wrote a large work which mentions many names. He could have mentioned Jesus if he had known of him.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5
LUCAN
Marcus Annaeus Lucanus wrote the Pharsalia (Civil War) in Rome in mid 1st century.
In his large poem, the Pharsalia, he mentions some events from later times, and he covers many different issues and people in passing.
He:
mentions an event from 56CE,
refers to places as far afield as Sicily and Kent,
refered to Stoic religious beliefs about the end of the world,
refers to many books and myths and persons and events not part of the main story.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5
STATIUS
Publius Papinius Statius wrote numerous minor and epic poems (e.g. Ode to Sleep and the Thebaid) in Rome in late 1st century.
Statius wrote many works on several subjects, he could have mentioned Jesus.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5
HERO of ALEXANDRIA
Hero
of Alexandria wrote many technical works, including astronomy.
If he had known of the Gospel stories about Jesus, he could have mentioned them.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5
GEMINUS
Geminus wrote on mathematics astronomy in Greece.
If he had known of the Gospel stories about Jesus, he could have mentioned them.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5
ALBINUS
Albinus taught on (neo-)Platonism in early 2nd century, a little survives.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5
ARISTOCLES
Aristocles of Messene wrote On Philosophy, early 2nd century.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5
APOLLODORUS
Apollodorus compiled a large Mythology in mid 2nd century.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5
HEPHAESTION
Hephaestion of Alexandria wrote many works in mid 2nd century.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5
SEXTUS EMPIRICUS
Sextus Empiricus wrote Outlines of Scepticism in mid 2nd century.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5
K.
In one of the MANY writers of the period :
WRITERS WHO SHOULD HAVE MENTIONED JESUS
PHILO
Philo Judaeus wrote very many books about Jewish religion and history, in the 30s and 40s, living in Alexandria, and visiting Jerusalem.
Philo was contemporary with Jesus and Paul,
Philo visited Jerusalem and had family there,
he developed the concept of the Logos and the holy spirit,
he was considered a Christian by some later Christians,
he wrote a great deal about related times and peoples and issues.
If Jesus had existed, Philo would almost certainly have written about him and his teachings.
Rating: SHOULD have mentioned Jesus or his teachings, but did not.
Weight: 5
WRITERS WHO PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE MENTIONED JESUS
SENECA
Lucius Annaeus Seneca wrote many philosophic (Stoic) and satirical books and letters (and Tragedies) in Rome.
Seneca wrote a great deal on many subjects and mentioned many people. He was a Stoic, a school of thought considered sympathetic to Christian teachings.
In fact,
early Christians seemed to have expected him to discuss Christianity - they FORGED letters between him and Paul.
How else to explain these forgeries, except as Christian responses to a surprising VOID in Seneca's writings?
Rating: PROBABLY SHOULD have mentioned Jesus or his teachings, but did not.
Weight: 4
PLUTARCH
Plutarch of Chaeronea wrote many works on history and philosophy in Rome and Boetia in about 90-120 CE.
Plutarch wrote about influential Roman figures, including some contemporary to Jesus,
Plutarch wrote on Oracles (prophesies),
Plutarch wrote on moral issues,
Plutarch wrote on spiritual and religious issues.
If Plutarch knew of Jesus or the Gospel events, it is highly likely he would have mentioned them.
Rating: PROBABLY SHOULD have mentioned Jesus or his teachings, but did not.
Weight: 4
JUSTUS
Justus of Tiberias wrote a History of Jewish Kings in Galilee in late 1st century.
Photius read Justus in the 8th century and noted that he did not mention anything: "He (Justus of Tiberias) makes not one mention of Jesus, of what happened to him, or of the wonderful works that he did."
It is surprising that a contemporary writer from the very region of Jesus' alleged acts did not mention him.
Rating: PROBABLY SHOULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 3
WRITERS WHO COULD HAVE MENTIONED JESUS
DAMIS
Damis wrote most of what we know about Apollonius of Tyana. He was a philospher and mystic exactly contemporary with Jesus and who was rather similar to Jesus - enough for some authors to argue they were one and the same person.
If Damis/Apollonius had known of Jesus, he could have easily have been mentioned as a competitor. A story in which Apollonius bested Jesus in debate would not be un-expected.
Rating: COULD easily have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 2
PLINY THE ELDER
Gaius Plinius Secundus wrote a large Natural History in Rome c.80CE
Pliny wrote a great deal - his Natural History mentions HUNDREDS of people, major & minor - writers, leaders, poets, artists - often with as much reason as mentioning Jesus. (Of course like many other writers he talks about astronomy too, but never mentions the Star of Bethlehem or the darkness.)
It is not at all un-reasoble for this prolific writer to have mentioned Jesus or the Gospels events.
Rating: COULD easily have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 2
JUVENAL
Decimus Junius Juvenalis wrote sixteen satires in Rome in early 2nd century.
Lucian the Roman satirist DID ridicule Christians (as gullible, easily lead fools) in mid 2nd century. By the later time of Lucian, Christianity obviously was known to the wider Roman community. Whereas Juvenal wrote at a time when Christianity had only just started to rate a few tiny mentions (Pliny the Younger, Tacitus.)
Rating: COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 2
MARTIAL
Marcus Valerius Martialus wrote satires in Rome in late 1st century.
Martial wrote a large body of poems about all sorts of things. He mentions many people, places, stories and issues - major and minor, within and without Rome, such as :
Stoic suffering of discomfort and death,
virgin's blood,
Roman funerary practices,
the way accused men look in court,
Roman soldiers mocking their leaders,
anointing the body with oil,
Molorchus the good shepherd,
Tutilius a minor rhetorician, Nestor the wise,
the (ugly) Temple of Jupiter,
This shows Martial mentions or alludes to many and varied people and issues.
He could easily have mentioned Jesus (or the Gospel events).
Rating: COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 2
PETRONIUS
Petronius Arbiter wrote a large novel (a bawdy drama) the "Satyricon" c.60CE.
Petronius mentions all sorts of people and events in this large work, including :
a CRUCIFIXION !
a scene where guards are posted to stop a corpse being stolen,
a tomb scene of someone mistaking a person for a supernatural vision,
gods such as Bacchus and Ceres,
writers such as Sophocles and Euripides and Epicurus,
books such as the Iliad,
Romans such as Cato and Pompey,
people such as Hannibal, and the Governor of Ephesus,
female charioteers, slaves, merchants, Arabs, lawyers
baths, shipwrecks, meals...
This large work, cover MANY topics, including a CRUCIFIXION, and it was written just as Peter and Paul had come to Rome, allegedly. It could easily have mentioned Jesus.
Rating: COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 2
PAUSANIAS
Pausanias wrote the massive Guide to Greece in mid 2nd century.
Pausanias' work is vast and the index covers over 70 pages of small print, I estimate a couple of THOUSAND names are mentioned. He mentions a large number of minor figues from within and without Greece.
He even mentions a Jewish prophetess - a figure so minor she is essentially unknown: "Then later than Demo there was a prophetic woman reared among the Jews beyond Palestine; her name was Sabbe." Phokis, Book X, 12, [5]
Pausanias also mentions the Jewish rebellion under Hadrian.
Rating: COULD easily have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 2
EPICTETUS
Epictetus is known for several books of Stoic religious and philosophic discourses in the early 2nd century. One of his disciples was Arrian, and thanks to him much of Epictetus' works are extant.
Epictetus DID apparently mention "the Galileans", which could be a reference to :
the early Christians,
or
the revolt under Judas the Galilean in early 1st century.
Either way, this shows quite clearly that Epictetus could refer to a figure such as Jesus.
Rating: COULD easily have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 2
AELIUS ARISTIDES
Aelius Aristides the Greek Orator spoke and wrote a History of Rome and other subjects - he seems to refer to the Christians as "impious men from Palestine" (Orations 46.2)
If he could mention people from Palestine, he could easily have mentioned Jesus.
Rating: COULD easily have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 2
FRONTO
Marcus Cornelius Fronto of Rome wrote several letters in mid 2nd century.
According to Minucius Felix, he scandalised rites practiced by Roman Christians - so he could easily have mentioned Jesus.
Rating: COULD easily have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 2
PERSIUS
Aulus Persius Flaccus wrote six fairly long satires in Rome in the mid 1st century, of a rather philosophic nature.
The argument that no Roman satirist could be expected to mention Jesus, is proven wrong by the case of a Roman satirist who DID mention Jesus (but only as echoes of later Christian beliefs.)
Persius wrote a reasonably large body of work that mentions many people and issues.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 1
DIO CHRYSOSTOM
Dio Chrysostom (Cocceianus Dio) wrote many works and gave many speeches in various Roman and Greek centres in late 1st century, of which 80 survive e.g. the Euboicus.
Dio wrote a large number of works in the late 1st century - he certainly could have mentioned Jesus, if he knew of him.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 1
AULUS GELLIUS
Aulus Gellius wrote Attic Nights (Nights in Athens), a large compendium of many topics and which mentioned many people.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 1
LUCIUS APULEIUS
Lucius Apuleius wrote the Metamorphoses (the Golden Ass or Transformations of Lucius) and many other spiritual, historical, and philosophic works - several survive.
Rating: COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 1
MARCUS AURELIUS
Marcus Aelius Aurelius Antoninus wrote the Stoic Meditations in mid 2nd century - he (apparently) refers once to the Christians in XI, 3.
Rating: COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 1
MUSONIUS RUFUS
C. Musonius Rufus wrote on Stoic philosophy in Rome in mid 1st century.
Rating: COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 1
HIEROCLES
Hierocles of Alexandria wrote on Stoic philosophy in late 1st century.
Rating: COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 1
MAXIMUS of TYRE
Cassius Maximus Tyrius, a Greek NeoPlatonic philosopher, wrote many works in mid 2nd century.
Rating: COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 1
ARRIAN
Arrian wrote a History of Alexander c.120CE.
The subject is not related, but Arrian wrote a very large work which mentioned HUNDREDS of people, some not from Alexander's time.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5
APPIAN
Appian wrote a large Roman History (from the Gracchi to Caesar) in mid 2nd century.
It's not particularly likely that this specific writer would mention Jesus.
But,
he wrote a LARGE work which mentions HUNDREDS of people.
Appian does mention some issues of HIS day (mid 2nd century), e.g. a decision by Hadrian.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5
THEON of SMYRNA
Theon of Smyrna wrote on astronomy/philosophy in early 2nd century.
Theon wrote about philosophy. If Jesus and his teachings were known, it is entirely plausible for to mention them.
Theon also wrote about astronomy.
If he had heard about the Star of Bethlehem or the Darkness (as an event, or from the Gospels) he could easily have mentioned it.
Apologists frequently cite Phlegon and Thallus, astronomers who mentioned eclipses (but NOT Jesus or the Gospel events, that is merely later Christian wishful thinking) as evidence for Jesus.
An astronomer could easily be expected to mention those incidents, especially when apologists claim other astronomers of the period did exactly that.
The silence of early astronomers about the Star of Bethlehem or the crucifixion darkness argues these "events" were unknown until later.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5
QUINTILIAN
Marcus Fabius Quintilianus, wrote the "Education of an Orator" in Rome in late 1st century.
One of the things Jesus was allegedly noted for was his PUBLIC SPEECHES - e.g. the Sermon on the Mount, which supposedly drew and influenced large crowds.
If Quintilian had heard of Jesus or the Gospels events, he could have mentioned the allegedly famous speeches of Jesus.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5
LUCIUS ANNAEUS FLORUS
Lucius Annaeus Florus wrote an Epitome of Roman History.
Although not directly on subject, Florus wrote a large work which mentions many names. He could have mentioned Jesus if he had known of him.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5
LUCAN
Marcus Annaeus Lucanus wrote the Pharsalia (Civil War) in Rome in mid 1st century.
In his large poem, the Pharsalia, he mentions some events from later times, and he covers many different issues and people in passing.
He:
mentions an event from 56CE,
refers to places as far afield as Sicily and Kent,
refered to Stoic religious beliefs about the end of the world,
refers to many books and myths and persons and events not part of the main story.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5
STATIUS
Publius Papinius Statius wrote numerous minor and epic poems (e.g. Ode to Sleep and the Thebaid) in Rome in late 1st century.
Statius wrote many works on several subjects, he could have mentioned Jesus.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5
HERO of ALEXANDRIA
Hero
of Alexandria wrote many technical works, including astronomy.If he had known of the Gospel stories about Jesus, he could have mentioned them.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5
GEMINUS
Geminus wrote on mathematics astronomy in Greece.
If he had known of the Gospel stories about Jesus, he could have mentioned them.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5
ALBINUS
Albinus taught on (neo-)Platonism in early 2nd century, a little survives.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5
ARISTOCLES
Aristocles of Messene wrote On Philosophy, early 2nd century.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5
APOLLODORUS
Apollodorus compiled a large Mythology in mid 2nd century.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5
HEPHAESTION
Hephaestion of Alexandria wrote many works in mid 2nd century.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5
SEXTUS EMPIRICUS
Sextus Empiricus wrote Outlines of Scepticism in mid 2nd century.
Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5
K.
Kapyong
Graduate Poster
dafydd
Banned
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2008
- Messages
- 35,398
He's just as much a saint as any Catholic 'saint'.
RandFan
Mormon Atheist
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2001
- Messages
- 60,135
Ahh Corel. I was a graphics production manager with a mixed Windows Mac department. I couldn't get Corel to work for me to save my life. But I was never a Mac sycophant. I loved the computer but it wasn't a religious experience or anything.
Good job BTW.
bikerdruid
Philosopher
Kinda odd that Jesus prophesied specifically about Paul then, ain't it.
i'm curious to see your quote to prove this.
are you aware that all of the gospels were written later than paul?
dafydd
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Very true. I find it strange that they are called the synoptic gospels when they disagree about such a lot.
Lord Emsworth
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Bill Thompson
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When confronted with new information, I think one should consider the source.
Ralph Rene and his buddies dreamed up the idea of embarrassing the US government after they were sick of the Vietnam war. Nothing, the thought, would be better than putting together the theory that the Apollo missions were a fraud.
Bart Sibreal was a video journalist working for a local Nashville TV station and when he ran onto Neil Armstrong's property, Armstrong got him arrested. After that, Sibreal started his Apollo Hoax campaign.
Both these men have axes go grind. Both have produced material that suggests that the Apollo landing is the hoax.
This whole Jesus is a myth campaign does not seem to come from priests who want to fees up. It seems to come from former Mormons who would love it if Mainstream Christianity was just as contrived as their former faith and atheists who would love it if Jesus was a myth.
But is there any example -- apart from this -- of a movement existing without some living person to kick it off -- that is, without everyone knowing it is a myth. I mean everyone knows Spiderman and Superman and The Green Lantern are myths. But, at the same time, everyone knows Confucius, Buddha, and Mohammed were real. Is there an example where some thing like Buddhism gets started and then a couple thousand years later someone outside of the movement starts saying Buddha never lived and it turns out to be true?
Without Jim Jones, there would have been no Jim Jones Church. Without David Koresh, there would be no Branch Dividians. Without Charles Manson there would have been no Manson family. Having any of these things exist without their leader is very implausible. Same holds true with Christianity.
By the way, once someone is dead, it is difficult to "prove" that they had ever existed. This is true for everybody. And the longer ago they lived, the harder it becomes and the more fun it is to theorise they never lived.
Ralph Rene and his buddies dreamed up the idea of embarrassing the US government after they were sick of the Vietnam war. Nothing, the thought, would be better than putting together the theory that the Apollo missions were a fraud.
Bart Sibreal was a video journalist working for a local Nashville TV station and when he ran onto Neil Armstrong's property, Armstrong got him arrested. After that, Sibreal started his Apollo Hoax campaign.
Both these men have axes go grind. Both have produced material that suggests that the Apollo landing is the hoax.
This whole Jesus is a myth campaign does not seem to come from priests who want to fees up. It seems to come from former Mormons who would love it if Mainstream Christianity was just as contrived as their former faith and atheists who would love it if Jesus was a myth.
But is there any example -- apart from this -- of a movement existing without some living person to kick it off -- that is, without everyone knowing it is a myth. I mean everyone knows Spiderman and Superman and The Green Lantern are myths. But, at the same time, everyone knows Confucius, Buddha, and Mohammed were real. Is there an example where some thing like Buddhism gets started and then a couple thousand years later someone outside of the movement starts saying Buddha never lived and it turns out to be true?
Without Jim Jones, there would have been no Jim Jones Church. Without David Koresh, there would be no Branch Dividians. Without Charles Manson there would have been no Manson family. Having any of these things exist without their leader is very implausible. Same holds true with Christianity.
By the way, once someone is dead, it is difficult to "prove" that they had ever existed. This is true for everybody. And the longer ago they lived, the harder it becomes and the more fun it is to theorise they never lived.
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Ethnikos
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Blessed art thou who are persecuted for my name's sake.
Ring a bell?
A good enough reason to get persecuted for the glory?
God has made us to come to your land and to your city to preach to you the Gospel to raise up a people who will stand against the man of sin and to be taken by the onslaught of persecution and God has perfected a soul within you to be holy for glorification?
Invitation for martyrdom?
Just wondering. Paul was not talking about two thousand years in the future but right now. He was preparing all who would listen , for a great kill fest and they were to rise in glory as the holy saints to accuse the world.
Apocalypse, anyone?
Kapyong
Graduate Poster
Gday,
But you don't know what the source is!
Nor do you understand the new information.
Your posts here show no understanding of the issues at all.
K.
But you don't know what the source is!
Nor do you understand the new information.
Your posts here show no understanding of the issues at all.
K.
Lord Emsworth
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Of course there would be people to 'kick it off', somewhere, in some way. It just does not necessarily have to be some sort of Guru, who himself is, or becomes, the object of worship. In this case, i.e. with a mythical Jesus, those would be people like Paul or the earlier members of the sect that he joined. IOW, the people to kick it off would not be Jesus and his 12 disciples, but rather some mysticists.
RandFan
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We are skeptics. We expose frauds. Uri Geller. Sylvia Browne. Scientology. Mormonism. New Age, Psychics, etc.. We are equal oportunity BS exposers.
Joseph Smith started Mormonism. Mary Baker Eddie started ChristianScience. L. Ron Hubbard strted Scientology
Yep, and they, like Christianity are frauds.
BTW: Duh. So let's fill our ignorance with talking snakes, talking donkeys, witches, etc because we can't prove them either. Just think, some day Harry Potter will be real because it will be to hard to prove he existed. Good one Bill.
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BobTheDonkey
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The thing is...it's easier to start a religion saying:
"Hey, worship this guy over here!"
than it is to start a religion saying:
"Hey, worship me!"
Koresh's followers didn't worship Koresh, they believed he was a prophet anointed by God. An important distinction. Koresh wasn't a cult leader because he said "Hey, worship me!", he became a cult leader because he said "Hey, I'm appointed by that guy over there as his representative. Worship him and follow his rules as relayed through me!". In fact, just about the exact same thing Paul did...
ETA: Note that this holds true for Joseph Smith (Mormonism), L. Ron Hubbard (Scientology), etc.
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Akhenaten
Heretic Pharaoh
When confronted with new information, I think one should consider the source.
Utter drivel.
Ethnikos
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OK. I clicked on the link and the first verse is:
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
There seems to be a condition attached and don't see how there is anything imputed. Imputed I would take as a legal term, like you plead no contest and the judge adjudicates you without technically making an official ruling.
Is this the correct interpretation?
In no order of sequence? I have to gather by what you already said, that the answer is no.
Outside of a judgement, you are, I would imagine, given a type of parole, where you will be brought back later for an actual hearing. So, it looks to me like you are only a probationary saint, awaiting the "walking after the spirit" results. Going up in a flame of glory would be a shortcut to true sainthood.
I'm not suggesting anyone try this at home, more a hypothetical to figure out what these people were thinking back in this nebulous period of the persecution.
Mudcat
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It is the only one I can imagine, because the only possibility for something to exist in the physical world is to... well, exist physically.
Myth doesn't necesarily mean that. It could be that Jesus was a real flesh and blood human being, but there are a bunch of outrageous stories about him.Kapyong said:
Take George Washington (first president of the USA) was a real flesh and blood human being who is thought to have been a great man. And yet there are any number of stories and legends about him that never happened.
So yes, it boils down to historical Jesus, yes or no. If he didn't exist than it's certain the MJ is just too absurd to entertain.