Ok so how strong is your commitment to free speech

The problem with the "as with homosexuality" argument is its premise; "child" is not a gender. Indeed, it is often argued (even by themselves) that pedophiles have "sexual orientations" (i.e., are homosexual or heterosexual) independent of and unrelated to their kid attraction.
Actually, I'd tend to look at this from the opposite point of view. From an evolutionary viewpoint, pedophilia (at least heterosexual pedophilia) could be argued to have at least some advantage, in that there is potential (either at present, or future) for the partner to bear children. In fact, practically every species on the planet seems to have a biological imperative to mate as soon as they are biologically capable of doing so. In humans, that can be children as young as 10 or 12 years of age...which we consider to be pedophilia.

On the other hand, homosexuality serves no evolutionary purpose that I can fathom whatsoever. So, if homosexuality can arise as a biologically predetermined preference, I fail to see why sexual desire for children is impossible. What...your argument is that in pretty well every other species on the planet, mating is automatic as soon as they are sexually capable of it, but in humans it is actually a psychological perversion?
The same can be said of slavery, female subservience, and many other once-widely-accepted practices of which our society has divested itself in modern times. I also happen to believe that anyone who thinks slavery is a-OK is also suffering from something of a mental imbalance.
Exactly my point. The very same arguments that you are using to dismiss sexual preference for children were used (and even continue to be used) by those who consider(ed) homosexuality to be a psychological disorder. Homosexuality was (and still is by some) equated with beastiality, and a host of other psychological disorders. So simply saying it is equivalent to other psychological disorders does not necessarily make it so -- yet that is the only argument that you've been able to put forward.
As is your right; I, however, do not.
And, by that token, it is my right to take your own arguments to task, also.
 
P.S. -- Before people start seeing me as being pro-pedophile, or thinking I'm siding with UW, that is not the case at all. However, I feel that it is a serious issue which deserves intelligent consideration and examination, not simply throw-away judgments.

There are a number of decent arguments for pedophilia being a psychological disorder; and I believe that for those who really seek to prevent sexual abuse of children, it is of great importance to be aware of those arguments, and be able to answer intelligently, in an informed manner.

The type of answer that Joseph Korosi offers will never convince anyone of anything, will never be of use in any debate on the subject. He simply states straight out that it is a psychological disorder, and feels no need to offer further evidence or arguments for that claim. It is, because it is. This is pretty much the same type of argument that Christians will use to 'prove' that the Bible is true, or other such things. And the end result is inevitable -- it will not change anyone's mind, whatever you thought before you heard this, you will basically believe the same thing after you've heard it.

On the other hand, if you can present concrete, logical arguments, based on studies, data, and research, with conclusions based on quantifiable fact rather than on personal proclamations of 'truth', then you have a decent chance of convincing at least some people.

And in the end, to me, that's what this is about; not about personal moral positions and asserting "I'm right"...but about being able to present a rational, convincing argument to others; and thereby, hopefully, make some small contribution towards preventing the sexual abuse of children.
 
Actually, I'd tend to look at this from the opposite point of view. From an evolutionary viewpoint, pedophilia (at least heterosexual pedophilia) could be argued to have at least some advantage, in that there is potential (either at present, or future) for the partner to bear children. In fact, practically every species on the planet seems to have a biological imperative to mate as soon as they are biologically capable of doing so. In humans, that can be children as young as 10 or 12 years of age...which we consider to be pedophilia.

I was under the impression that pedophiles by definition tend become less and less attracted to a child as physical evidence of maturity begins to manifest and becomes more and more obvious. Pedophilia seems to me more of a fetish than a sexual orientation. Nobody can say that someone who goes crazy over feet, for instance, is driven by some innate desire to reproduce.

On the other hand, homosexuality serves no evolutionary purpose that I can fathom whatsoever. So, if homosexuality can arise as a biologically predetermined preference, I fail to see why sexual desire for children is impossible. What...your argument is that in pretty well every other species on the planet, mating is automatic as soon as they are sexually capable of it, but in humans it is actually a psychological perversion?

Again, pedophiles are attracted to the apparent lack of sexual capability in a mark; immaturity which is generally indicative of a person who is smaller, weaker, and more easily manipulated. "Humans and maturity and procreation" doesn't seem to be an important factor. Sure, the pedophile attaches a superficial sexual significance to it; but consider, some violent criminals attach a sexual importance to crimes like robbery and serial murder, in cases where sex or rape simply isn't involved. They quite literally get off on doing whatever it is they're doing. I suggest that arguments vis-a-vis gender and procreation instinct do not apply to this issue.

Exactly my point. The very same arguments that you are using to dismiss sexual preference for children were used (and even continue to be used) by those who consider(ed) homosexuality to be a psychological disorder. Homosexuality was (and still is by some) equated with beastiality, and a host of other psychological disorders. So simply saying it is equivalent to other psychological disorders does not necessarily make it so -- yet that is the only argument that you've been able to put forward.

But the arguments you've used - such as that at some point pedophilia "used to be OK" - can be used to justify the dismissal of the opinion that other outdated anachronisms (such as slavery) are inherently bad. Religious inquisitions used to be OK; indentured servitude used to be OK.

Science has examined homosexuality and has decided that it isn't a disorder. Science is continuing to examine pedophilia, and has not made a similar decision as of yet. It has also not decided to make sociopathy or manic depression "not-disorders" yet. So, it seems to me the argument that homosexuality "used to be bad but isn't anymore" is a non sequiter, if the implication is that science is likely similarly mistaken about pedophilia. If the implication is that science is only possibly similarly mistaken about pedophilia, the argument is useless - science is possibly similarly mistaken about absolutely everything.

Consider modern history as a graph describing change over time. In earlier times, "homosexuality" was considered abberant, and things like slavery and pedophilia were considered acceptable. As man learns more over history, and becomes enlightened, things change. He comes to realize that things like homosexuality are not so abberant after all, whilst other things he used think were OK, he now realizes, aren't.

Better and more clinical arguments have been made by other posters; while still others have more or less echoed the things I've said. What you need to understand is, with this particular issue - as with some others, for instance racism - a particular person can be prompted, by matters of circumstance, to form a very strong opinion about pedophilia without resorting to or being confronted with statistics and analysis. Of course, it's certainly not fair for such a person to say something like "you should believe me because I happen to know better"; but it also might be a bit capricious to judge such a person's opinion as completely baseless.
 
Maybe the whole children/sex taboo is entirely cultural. So what? That doesn't mean we can't keep that taboo. Society is made up of the collective will of its members. If we don't like pedophilia, we can incorporate that into our culture, our ethics, and our laws. It doesn't have to have a "scientific" basis, or evidence, or charts and graphs. We're not trying to determine how gravity works, or analyze the behavior of wildebeest. We're deciding what human behavior we, as a collective, will tolerate. So it contradicts previous cultures, so what? We don't have to be consistent, because culture is not natural. It's invented. It doesn't have to be rational, much less scientifically valid.

Science is for studying natural things that are, not a guide for how to create unnatural things that ought to be. Culture may be a large part pragmatism and all the rest whimsy, but that doesn't mean its dictates are invalid just because they don't fit into a solid geometry proof.
 
When did this conversation go from virtual porn with no victims to legalizing actual pedophilia?
 
When did this conversation go from virtual porn with no victims to legalizing actual pedophilia?

And slavery. It's the steepest of the slippery slopes:

Monday: Thirteen year old Amanda posts online a pastel drawing of Luc from Suikoden raping Draco Malfoy.
Tuesday: Pedophilia legalized.
Wednesday: Slavery makes a comeback.
Thursday: Hitler returns to power.
Friday: Everybody dies.
 
Science has examined homosexuality and has decided that it isn't a disorder. Science is continuing to examine pedophilia, and has not made a similar decision as of yet.
I guess I am on ignore.

In any event. This isn't true. For one thing you are simply looking at pedophelia in a vacuum. This is wrong for the reasons I stated.
 
The ACLU fought for it, BTW.
what a shock.


This article and thread bring to mind a different question:

How strong is your commitment to kiddie porn? That appears to be the question to ask of the proponents, though it is as imprecise and misleading as your opener.

I appreciate the significance of emulation/cartoon/non photographic CGI as the vehicle, but isn't there at least a modest argument against this move, with its root being the thin end of the wedge and desensitization?

I won't try to make it, since I am not from the UK and don't feel I have a dog in this fight, but I think an opponent might take a similar view to violence and sex and smoking and all that other rot in movies. It would point to the CGI approach as desensitizing.
Gee ya think?

Yes let's blur the line of reailty and distinction bit by bit, so nobody "really" notices or can make a case against it. Kiddie porn? By golly why should that be excluded?

As for "let's 'scientifically examine' pedophilia to see if it's a disorder'...." :boggled: I pity anyone so blind/screwed up that this isn't incredibly obvious. And what if some brilliant scientists decided it's NOT? Rev up the kiddie porn?

:boxedin: Unfreakingbelievable. Be afraid.
 
As for "let's 'scientifically examine' pedophilia to see if it's a disorder'...." :boggled: I pity anyone so blind/screwed up that this isn't incredibly obvious. And what if some brilliant scientists decided it's NOT? Rev up the kiddie porn?

:boxedin: Unfreakingbelievable. Be afraid.
There is more than sufficient data to come to a reasoned conclusion as to pedophilia.

  1. Pedophilia in modern, civilized societies, because of taboos has a great potential to cause harm from the sexual contact alone.
  2. The perpetrators know that the act is illegal and therefore are more likely to cause additional harm by killing the child or acting in additional aberrant behavior.
  3. A perpetrator who is willing to break the law to engage in sex with a child is more likely to suffer mental or emotional problems exacerbating the problem and causing harm.
  4. Adult child sex is not, per se, inherently harmful.

Abusing children is disgusting and worthy of the stigma society places on it. As much as I hate pedophelia I can't make a blanket statement about it because such a statement is not warranted.
 
what a shock.

Gee ya think?

Yes let's blur the line of reailty and distinction bit by bit, so nobody "really" notices or can make a case against it. Kiddie porn? By golly why should that be excluded?

As for "let's 'scientifically examine' pedophilia to see if it's a disorder'...." :boggled: I pity anyone so blind/screwed up that this isn't incredibly obvious. And what if some brilliant scientists decided it's NOT? Rev up the kiddie porn?

:boxedin: Unfreakingbelievable. Be afraid.

I see a lot of emotion. No logic. Hm, some ad hominems too.

Also, do you recognize a difference between non-virtual and virtual kiddie porn?

Do you fully support banning images that you find detestable, even if no one was hurt in the production of said images?

If not kiddie porn, then what about rape porn? What about images of violence?
 
As for "let's 'scientifically examine' pedophilia to see if it's a disorder'...." :boggled: I pity anyone so blind/screwed up that this isn't incredibly obvious.

So, because something is really disgusting, that means it is unnatural and a disorder?
 
Maybe the whole children/sex taboo is entirely cultural. So what? That doesn't mean we can't keep that taboo. Society is made up of the collective will of its members. If we don't like pedophilia, we can incorporate that into our culture, our ethics, and our laws. It doesn't have to have a "scientific" basis, or evidence, or charts and graphs. We're not trying to determine how gravity works, or analyze the behavior of wildebeest. We're deciding what human behavior we, as a collective, will tolerate. So it contradicts previous cultures, so what? We don't have to be consistent, because culture is not natural. It's invented. It doesn't have to be rational, much less scientifically valid.

Science is for studying natural things that are, not a guide for how to create unnatural things that ought to be. Culture may be a large part pragmatism and all the rest whimsy, but that doesn't mean its dictates are invalid just because they don't fit into a solid geometry proof.
From this follows the reasonable idea that one get to the root of the source of the attraction, the fantasy, and address it to find which elements of it are within psychological bounds as "normal" and which are outside of the bounds of "normal and healthy" psychological condition. Note that we are bound to subjective assessments, contextually framed by cultural norms. To pretend those don't have an influence is, as you say, TM, unrealistic. (I think that is what you meant. Sorry if I gooned that up.)

Lonewulf, it is because the attractions, or the root psychological cause, are so similar that the two themes tend to converge in any such conversation.

That some people can compartmentalize, as you or I would regarding violent video games we might play, and some cannot, means that those who cannot so compartmentalize need to get some assistance in doing so, or this kiddie porn can (or may) aid and abet a predilection for a behavior that has been defined as "evil," "bad," and unlawful: sex with children conducted by adults.

DR
 
From this follows the reasonable idea that one get to the root of the source of the attraction, the fantasy, and address it to find which elements of it are within psychological bounds as "normal" and which are outside of the bounds of "normal and healthy" psychological condition. Note that we are bound to subjective assessments, contextually framed by cultural norms. To pretend those don't have an influence is, as you say, TM, unrealistic. (I think that is what you meant. Sorry if I gooned that up.)

What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter what the psychology is. We can decide, as a society, that we don't care why or how someone feels attraction for children, we're just not going to allow it. It may not be scientific, or even fair, but it doesn't have to be.

Saying something is "purely cultural" doesn't make it wrong. Our culture is against pedophilia. Others were not. We don't have to prove ourselves right, with science or argument or even reason. We make our culture the way we want it.
 
TragicMonkey said:
We can decide, as a society, that we don't care why or how someone feels attraction for children, we're just not going to allow it. It may not be scientific, or even fair, but it doesn't have to be.

So operate based on ignorance?

Not sure if I agree with that.

I'm all for keeping pedophilia illegal, but understanding the basics of why or how it happens is still useful.
 

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