OK, so how do thermite demolitions work again?

[TruthersLie]

Right. Thermate AND multiple rigged explosions. I know it can be hard for an Arabs alone theorist to read sometimes. There is of course the possibility of black projects weaponry. But black projects weaponry cannot be the whole story since any theory must be able to explain the multiple rigged explosions.

appeal to magic!!!!

woo hoo.

You realize the black ops people know exactly who you are right?
And where you live?
They are EVERYWHERE!!!

run

 

[TruthersLie]

Thanks Dave, Trutherslie.....

I'm assuming then, by the size of the residue sample in the picture provided, that there were no large(relatively speaking) solidified chunks of previously molten metals/material?

What I'm getting at (and it doesnt involve thermite), is; Is there any evidence of residues at GZ that would support the eyewitness accounts of molten materials? Based on the eyewitness descriptions, there should be some re-solidified materials en masse.

To the best of my knowledge there are not large chunks of resolidified metals that were pulled up en mass.

Now with that in mind, I would be suprised to have found large chunks of formerly molten metals.

As the metals were molten, in the fires they would have shifted towards the lowest point possible. As the fires were put out they would have cooled enough to resolidify on whatever objects would be close and would be removed.

At the same time you had ironworkers cutting up debris and removing the materials.

It is possible there may be photographic evidence of resolidified metals, but you would need to carefully examine photographs from the tail end of the clean up.

 

[dafydd]

Yes of course I am. Because the evidence is before you in the form of the internet. If you will not look at the evidence, then the problem is all your own.

Crap on the internet is not evidence.Do you have any real evidence of molten iron?

 

[ImANiceGuy]

There was molten metal found ...

can you eliminate any of the metals which would be molten in an regular office fire? yes or no?

I'm not supporting a molten iron scenario, nor am I a proponent for a CD hypothesis.

However, many of you rule out molten steel/iron at GZ because no
're-solidified' pools of steel or iron were found during the cleanup.

Can we then also rule out the other common metals for which no residues of their type were found either?

This is based on the assumption that there were significant amounts of molten metal present at GZ, based on eye-witness accounts.

 

[TruthersLie]

Witness evidence. Any theory that said it was aluminium, would also have to account for aluminium being there, and in all three basements.

can you tell me about this basement in wtc7?

how did molten metal end up in the elevator shafts of wtc5 and 6?

 

[DGM]

appeal to magic!!!!

woo hoo.

You realize the black ops people know exactly who you are right?
And where you live?They are EVERYWHERE!!!

run

Close enough. He's using a "free" wireless connection.I talked to the neighbors, They're "cooperating".

 

[ImANiceGuy]

To the best of my knowledge there are not large chunks of resolidified metals that were pulled up en mass.

Now with that in mind, I would be suprised to have found large chunks of formerly molten metals.

As the metals were molten, in the fires they would have shifted towards the lowest point possible. As the fires were put out they would have cooled enough to resolidify on whatever objects would be close and would be removed.

At the same time you had ironworkers cutting up debris and removing the materials.

It is possible there may be photographic evidence of resolidified metals, but you would need to carefully examine photographs from the tail end of the clean up.

So to be fair; wouldn't this also apply to previously molten steel/iron?

(Just to reitterate; this is all based on the assumption that there was significant amounts of molten metals.)

 

[DGM]

So to be fair; wouldn't this also apply to previously molten steel/iron?

(Just to reitterate; this is all based on the assumption that there was significant amounts of molten metals.)

The issue would be, re-solidified steel would be something of interest. Other metals......not so much.

 

[TruthersLie]

I'm not supporting a molten iron scenario, nor am I a proponent for a CD hypothesis.

However, many of you rule out molten steel/iron at GZ because no
're-solidified' pools of steel or iron were found during the cleanup.

Can we then also rule out the other common metals for which no residues of their type were found either?

This is based on the assumption that there were significant amounts of molten metal present at GZ, based on eye-witness accounts.

This is a rather interesting question (IMHO). I find it interesting because it is an "unknown" to me. I find the idea interesting.

Resolidified molten metals woudl have sunk to the lowest portion of the fires and then solidified.

The issue becomes cutting it out. If it was steel it would be much harder to cut out than any of the common metals as they have much lower melting points.

I do know that it is not uncommon in things like car fires to have molten aluminum (the wheels if they are aluminum alloys, the engine blocks etc), and from what friends of mine who are fire fighters have told me it is not uncommon in reallllly hot office fires to see pools of aluminum.

I'd personally like to know more about it.

 

[TruthersLie]

So to be fair; wouldn't this also apply to previously molten steel/iron?

(Just to reitterate; this is all based on the assumption that there was significant amounts of molten metals.)

you use the key word.
Significant

That really depends on how that word is defined. Tons of it? hundreds of pounds of it?

and they would be formerly molten metals.

But we know the fires burned for 99 days (officially), and their temperatures would have been high enough to keep about 8 or 10 very common metals in a molten state in the fires.

If someone has links to information about recovered aluminum or images it could be interesting.

ETA: I remember an article about the bedrock under the towers and how they were examined after ground zero was cleaned up... I'll see if I can find it again and post it.

 

[triforcharity]

I'm not supporting a molten iron scenario, nor am I a proponent for a CD hypothesis.

However, many of you rule out molten steel/iron at GZ because no
're-solidified' pools of steel or iron were found during the cleanup.

Can we then also rule out the other common metals for which no residues of their type were found either?

This is based on the assumption that there were significant amounts of molten metal present at GZ, based on eye-witness accounts.

No, that's not it at all. We rule it out because to melt steel or iron to a liquid state, would take temperatures in excess of 2500 deg. F. Which, is INCREDIBLY difficult in an office fire. Especially to MAINTAIN that temperature to melt any significant amount of steel.

Unless we're in a sugar factory. Sugar factory fires (what I'm teaching in school right now) can reach anywhere from 3000-4500 deg. F. Crazy eh?

We also rule out molten steel/iron because there is no accounts from the cleanup workers of finding a steel beam that has had part of it melted.

 

[TruthersLie]

I'm not supporting a molten iron scenario, nor am I a proponent for a CD hypothesis.

However, many of you rule out molten steel/iron at GZ because no
're-solidified' pools of steel or iron were found during the cleanup.

Can we then also rule out the other common metals for which no residues of their type were found either?

This is based on the assumption that there were significant amounts of molten metal present at GZ, based on eye-witness accounts.

Sorry.. it's late, I've had a few drinks and missed your main point here.

It isn't just the lack of recovered pools of molten steel.
it is the fact that we know there are 10 metals which would melt and stay molten in the temperatures we would expect in the office fires (and the fires in the piles).
We know the temperatures were too low to melt steel.

So we couple those together
1. Temps to low to melt steel, but high enough to melt 10 other common metals.
2. there are reports of molten metals/molten materials with photographic and video evidence.
3. So something was molten.
4. QED it had to be something other than steel.

 

[beachnut]

Right. Iron was what the witnesses said. Iron was the constituency of the spheres found. No evidence for aluminium. No possibility of it being aluminium on the basis of the Arabs alone theory.

I find iron spheres in by back yard; because Fe, iron, is a common element found all over the earth. Why don't you know this? You are fooled easily by lies made up by 911 truth.

You are doing a parody of 911 truth; right?

"No evidence for Aluminum." Good one! Guess where tons of Aluminum were hidden in the WTC? Any clue?

Where is Al? Where is Al hiding?

Hidden in plain sight, no wonder you failed to see it. Where is Al?

The terrorists know where the Aluminum was, why did you fail? 19 terrorists did 911, and they bragged about it on video. Are you apologizing for terrorists, or just happy you have no idea where the Al was hidden?

 

[triforcharity]

This is a rather interesting question (IMHO). I find it interesting because it is an "unknown" to me. I find the idea interesting.

Resolidified molten metals woudl have sunk to the lowest portion of the fires and then solidified.

The issue becomes cutting it out. If it was steel it would be much harder to cut out than any of the common metals as they have much lower melting points.

I do know that it is not uncommon in things like car fires to have molten aluminum (the wheels if they are aluminum alloys, the engine blocks etc), and from what friends of mine who are fire fighters have told me it is not uncommon in reallllly hot office fires to see pools of aluminum.

I'd personally like to know more about it.

You're absolutely correct. Car fires regularly melt the aluminum and other alloys that are around the car. Wheels, bumpers, radiators, etc.

You can actually see that the front bumper has melted.
Some of that on the ground is from the radiator.

Here is another.

It's not at all uncommon in a car fire to have melted radiators. They are usually made with aluminum and simmilar alloys.

Sometimes even the magnesium will ignite, and can be a BIG danger to firefighters.
http://www.midsouthrescue.org/id21.html

Here is the video of a magnesium reaction to water.
http://midsouthrescue.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/vid_00732.mpg

 

[ImANiceGuy]

No, that's not it at all. We rule it out because to melt steel or iron to a liquid state, would take temperatures in excess of 2500 deg. F. Which, is INCREDIBLY difficult in an office fire. Especially to MAINTAIN that temperature to melt any significant amount of steel.

Unless we're in a sugar factory. Sugar factory fires (what I'm teaching in school right now) can reach anywhere from 3000-4500 deg. F. Crazy eh?

We also rule out molten steel/iron because there is no accounts from the cleanup workers of finding a steel beam that has had part of it melted.

Triforcharity;

Is there any account from the cleanup workers of finding any re-solidified metals? (other than Al, which there is some evidence of in small amounts(unconfirmed by me))

With regards to the temperatures of the debris piles, is there any consensus on the maximum temperatures reached at GZ? Actually, 'consensus' is the worst possible word to use here; lets try just: What was the maximum temperature officially recorded at GZ?

 

[chipmunk stew]

I can't imagine why they would have found iron spheres...

 

[ImANiceGuy]

So we couple those together
1. Temps to low to melt steel, but high enough to melt 10 other common metals.
2. there are reports of molten metals/molten materials with photographic and video evidence.
3. So something was molten.
4. QED it had to be something other than steel.

I totally agree with your line of reasoning here.

However, if we are to believe the eyewitness testimony, then there should be large pools of solidified metals, because the quotes from the responders imply a significant volume of liquid metals.

I guess my issue is that people saw liquid metals during the rescue/clean-up; whether they saw molten steel or molten metals is what is in question (by Truthers other than myself). ie. no one questions that there would be plenty of molten metals in such a debris pile.

Where did it all go then?

 

[chipmunk stew]

I totally agree with your line of reasoning here.

However, if we are to believe the eyewitness testimony, then there should be large pools of solidified metals, because the quotes from the responders imply a significant volume of liquid metals.

I guess my issue is that people saw liquid metals during the rescue/clean-up; whether they saw molten steel or molten metals is what is in question (by Truthers other than myself). ie. no one questions that there would be plenty of molten metals in such a debris pile.

Where did it all go then?

It's also possible that what they actually saw was a small amount of molten material and a large amount of glowing red hot material that wasn't molten, which exaggerated the effect. [/speculation, but that's really all we have to go on]

 

[triforcharity]

Triforcharity;

Is there any account from the cleanup workers of finding any re-solidified metals? (other than Al, which there is some evidence of in small amounts(unconfirmed by me))

Not that I am personally aware of. Here's why.

It's like finding a whore in a whorehouse.

It is NOT uncommon in a fire to find previously molten aluminum or other metals.

With regards to the temperatures of the debris piles, is there any consensus on the maximum temperatures reached at GZ? Actually, 'consensus' is the worst possible word to use here; lets try just: What was the maximum temperature officially recorded at GZ?

The one that I find most accurate is from the USGS.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0429/thermal.r09.html

Here is the link.

Here is also a link to Kelvin to F. calculator.

800 Kelvin is about 980 deg. F.

http://www.unit-conversion.info/temperature.html

There are other estimates available, but the problem with getting an EXACT measurement is that heat dissapates. Even if the fire down below is burning at 1800 deg. F. by the time it gets to the top, the heat has cooled by convection.

 

[triforcharity]

It's also possible that what they actually saw was a small amount of molten material and a large amount of glowing red hot material that wasn't molten, which exaggerated the effect. [/speculation, but that's really all we have to go on]

But, it's based on reality. Just look in a kiln. It looks like the entire thing is molten. But, in reality, the molten metal is at the bottom, and the stuff around it (usually some kind of ceramic) is red hot. This gives the impression of an entire rea of molten material.