Official - Michael Jackson was scum

[Foolmewunz]

A link to a fansite doesn't really cut it

Respectfully, why don't you just read the evidence. That site has an available download of the actual trial transcripts. You haven't bothered to do even the most cursory investigation of the crap you're spouting, virtually all of it sourced from tabloid gossip rags.

 

[cullennz]

Respectfully, why don't you just read the evidence. That site has an available download of the actual trial transcripts. You haven't bothered to do even the most cursory investigation of the crap you're spouting, virtually all of it sourced from tabloid gossip rags.

I looked at that site a few days ago.

 

[Foolmewunz]

I looked at that site a few days ago.

Cite me some cross-examination from the trial, then. Which particular evidence do you find the most damning - compared to the twelve jurors who returned "innocent" on all fourteen counts.

And tell us where you got the twenty million dollars pay-off information. Hint: It'll be in the FAQ on the site you're disparaging.

 

[DragonLady]

A link to a fansite doesn't really cut it

I'll say "fansite" is a fair characterization. However, if you look a little closer you'll see almost every page is backed up with citations, links, and sources.

Even if you completely disagree with the site owner's pov or conclusions, you can't claim he didn't do his homework.

 

[cullennz]

I'll say "fansite" is a fair characterization. However, if you look a little closer you'll see almost every page is backed up with citations, links, and sources.

Even if you completely disagree with the site owner's pov or conclusions, you can't claim he didn't do his homework.

I agree, but I'd assume they are carefully selected

 

[DragonLady]

I agree, but I'd assume they are carefully selected

Maybe. But if you're really interested in the facts of the case, they're a good place to start. As I said, he cites everything, so you can certainly go check his sources for yourself.

You may never change your mind, and that's okay. But please, at least base your judgement on the facts, and not the tsunami of media misinformation and slander that was flying back n forth 'round the world when all this was happening.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

I agree, but I'd assume they are carefully selected

I'm sure this is true. This is also why people have asked you for citations to the contrary, rather than just repeating the mantra of "what about the payoffs?"

 

[cullennz]

Maybe. But if you're really interested in the facts of the case, they're a good place to start. As I said, he cites everything, so you can certainly go check his sources for yourself.

You may never change your mind, and that's okay. But please, at least base your judgement on the facts, and not the tsunami of media misinformation and slander that was flying back n forth 'round the world when all this was happening.

Fair call.

I'll have another look

 

[DragonLady]

Fair call.

I'll have another look

Thank-you. That is all anyone can ask: just look at the facts and decide for yourself then.

 

[Dipayan]

I'm going to try to expand on this a bit, because I really feel like it's a major point that seems to go right over the heads of many.

I think *most* of the people that find their way to this message board grew up in fairly stereotypical families: Mom, Dad, kids. Maybe grandparents and extended visited, maybe the spare room had a permanent resident aunt or other relative. But for the most part, folks here grew up in single family homes or single family apartments, that actually housed the members of a single family.

But for many people in the USA, that is a pipe dream. Two miles up the road from me there's an apartment complex that's mostly filled with temporary farm workers. They often live with three or even four families all crammed into a single two bedroom apartment. Multiple adults, multiple children, even multiple pets, all eating, living and sleeping in fairly haphazard arrangements. It's not unusual. It's not weird. It's LIFE for them. And yet, any kind of weird sexual relations between the peoples in these circumstances is just that: weird.

Many of us are descended from pioneer families who lived in tiny cabins, and all slept together in one giant bed. It wasn't strange or a disaster waiting to happen. It was just LIFE.

I don't know much about MJ's early life, or the lives of his parents. But I wouldn't be surprised if his parents lived in very small houses, with extended family. I wouldn't be surprised if they told stories of "those good ol' days" to their children, and MJ built some fantasy in his head that those kinds of sleeping arrangements were happier, healthier, and a vital part of his dream childhood.

The people he was associating with were mostly wealthier, to be sure. Jordan Chandler's father was a famous dentist. But as most or all were black, I'd guess most of them had the same communal living as part of their heritage.

When we're considering the actions of any person, we need to step back, take a longer look, and see just what kind of tail is on the damn kite before we jump to the conclusion they're too weird for words. Because what might seem alien and weird to you and I, might just be perfectly normal for THEM.

What DragonLady says is actually very true. Separate beds for kids is not as common as most people want to make it out to be. Multiple members of a family sleeping in the same room, or even the same bed, is very common.

The main reason why children don't sleep with adults in the US is because adults don't want to (because of the larger American societal norms). The same societal norms which dictated, in the Victorian era) that couples should not sleep on the same bed. When an adult does not feel bound by societal pressure to follow sleeping customs, it's not really an unexpected outcome for children to want some company in bed.

What suggests 'pedophile' to a large number of people on this thread is accepted as normal behaviour in the majority of the world.

 

[Mumbles]

What DragonLady says is actually very true. Separate beds for kids is not as common as most people want to make it out to be. Multiple members of a family sleeping in the same room, or even the same bed, is very common.

The main reason why children don't sleep with adults in the US is because adults don't want to (because of the larger American societal norms). The same societal norms which dictated, in the Victorian era) that couples should not sleep on the same bed. When an adult does not feel bound by societal pressure to follow sleeping customs, it's not really an unexpected outcome for children to want some company in bed.

What suggests 'pedophile' to a large number of people on this thread is accepted as normal behaviour in the majority of the world.

While this is true, as I recall Jackson was not accused of sleeping in the same bed as children. Rather, he allowed children (and parents) to sleep in his bedroom in his mansion, which had, among other things, a staircase and a second floor.

 

[bonzombiekitty]

Sure, Michael Jackson certainly displayed behavior that sends up red flags to me, and I don't think I would have wanted my hypothetical kid spending the time alone with him.

That said, he was also a very eccentric person overall and I wouldn't discount him simply trying to live a very skewed version of a childhood that he never had or trying to give kids that fantasy childhood to make up for his own messed up childhood without any sexual overtones. He may have been so set on doing so that he was just blind to the boundaries that most people would consider him to have crossed.

He could also have had sexual feelings towards kids, but never actually acted on them. As far as I can tell, there's no real evidence that he did so.

 

[marplots]

If only Bubbles could talk.

 

[DragonLady]

While this is true, as I recall Jackson was not accused of sleeping in the same bed as children. Rather, he allowed children (and parents) to sleep in his bedroom in his mansion, which had, among other things, a staircase and a second floor.

It's my understanding Jordan Chandler claimed he and MJ slept in the same bed.

 

[DragonLady]

Jordan claimed that from then on, whenever he and Jackson were together, they slept in the same bed. In the Gardner interview Jordan claimed that physical contact started in early May with Jackson simply hugging him. But he contradicted himself later in the interview when he said that on a trip to Florida, which took place in April, Jackson grabbed his butt and put his tongue in his ear.

http://michaeljacksonallegations.com/the-chandler-allegations/

Warning: the descriptions on that page are pretty graphic, and may be triggering.

 

[Wolrab]

I realize I am bucking for a ban by outing the real meat space identity of a forum member but I feel I must. It is obvious when you put the pieces together.

Always posting dialog like a wannabe screenwriter, staunch defender of Michael Jackson, and obviously his handle here. Yes Tragic Monkey, I know you are Bubbles. Seek help now.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I realize I am bucking for a ban by outing the real meat space identity of a forum member but I feel I must. It is obvious when you put the pieces together.

Always posting dialog like a wannabe screenwriter, staunch defender of Michael Jackson, and obviously his handle here. Yes Tragic Monkey, I know you are Bubbles. Seek help now.

The funny thing is that despite my love for 80s music I have never cared for Michael Jackson's work. The only thing of his I've ever liked in the least was Alien Ant Farm's cover of Smooth Criminal, and they did that as a joke.

 

[bonzombiekitty]

The only thing of his I've ever liked in the least was Alien Ant Farm's cover of Smooth Criminal

I totally get not liking Michael Jackson. But this? You are a horrible human being and I will never listen to your opinion on anything in the future.

 

[HenryLee]

http://michaeljacksonallegations.com/the-chandler-allegations/

Warning: the descriptions on that page are pretty graphic, and may be triggering.

Gruesome stuff indeed but... then there's the way they came out, initially under anesthesia administered by alleged(by Carrie Fisher) "Dr. Feelgood"s(and she would know) then being given more shape by the people who brought us the McMartin Preschool fiasco, it's just kind of rotten.

But I know, I know...What About The Payoffs!!!

 

[Tony Stark]

Thanks to this thread, I'm convinced that MJ was the victim in all of this. I suspected before that the allegations were made up in order to get money from him, but now I'm sure of it.

MJ was definitely a creepy weirdo but he never hurt anyone.