Offer to the Truth Movement: Let's Settle It

Remember, Red, that he probably didn't do the first two; that was the job of the other four hijackers.

Dave

True. Good point. Although we have no idea which hijackers did what. How about the actual flying maneuvers, both the turn and the pull up? Is it fair to say that the pull up (not to be confused with "pull it") would be more difficult than the turn?
 
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True. Good point. Although we have no idea which hijackers did what. How about the actual flying maneuvers, both the turn and the pull up? Is it fair to say that the pull up (not to be confused with "pull it") would be more difficult than the turn?
What pull up are you referring to? As far as the turn, even you could do that by the end of a demo flight. Go to a local airport and take one. You'll be surprised at how easy it is to fly and maneuver. Ask the instructor about descending turns.
 
What pull up are you referring to? As far as the turn, even you could do that by the end of a demo flight. Go to a local airport and take one. You'll be surprised at how easy it is to fly and maneuver. Ask the instructor about descending turns.

Uh, the pull up that allowed the plane to fly parallel to the ground before it impacted the Pentagon.

Had it not pulled up it would have flown straight into the ground, not straight into the wall.
 
True. Good point. Although we have no idea which hijackers did what. How about the actual flying maneuvers, both the turn and the pull up? Is it fair to say that the pull up (not to be confused with "pull it") would be more difficult than the turn?

No. All you have to do is pick a spot on the windshield, and a location on the target, and keep them lined up. You will hit the target. A pullup will be part of that.

That is not to say that he necessarily used that technique, but it's simple and widely known.

All he really had to do was stay focused on the Pentagon.

In a standard landing, you're usually aiming for a spot somewhat short of where you actually want to touch down. As you get closer to the ground, you arrest your descent rate with a little back stick, and the round out floats you out to your actual touchdown spot. It doesn't require much thought, you just make the sight picture "right".

Hanjour's flight profile was very much like this.
 
How about the actual flying maneuvers, both the turn and the pull up? Is it fair to say that the pull up (not to be confused with "pull it") would be more difficult than the turn?

Which is more difficult, driving a car or using a jump rope?

What exactly is the point?

It's simply delving into minutia that is irrelevant and not important. But, I'll address the ridiculous question and maybe someone can come along with an important question.

Having flown with, trained, and/or evaluated literally HUNDREDS of pilots the answer is that it depends on the individual. Some people find some things difficult whereas others can accomplish the same thing very naturally. Even formation flying or air-to-air refueling or dive bombing come more naturally to some than others. It is simply unpredictable.

Troofers view this "pull out" as some kind of precision maneuver when it was more likely "blind luck" as opposed to skill. After all he did misjudge and hit the light poles. It would be similar to a flare for landing. It would be worthy to note that even had it been misjudged the aircraft would still have plowed into the building, but perhaps with less energy and with less damage.

It is quite silly for non-pilots to get into this type of discussion as it is strictly a matter of opinion with no definitive answer other than it depends.... Move along please.....
 
Uh, the pull up that allowed the plane to fly parallel to the ground before it impacted the Pentagon.

Had it not pulled up it would have flown straight into the ground, not straight into the wall.
Remember that he was a trained pilot. The "pull up" is also known as a "flare," which is standard landing procedure. The only difference is that he stopped it at near level flight instead of in a nose-up attitude. Again, nothing special. Take that demo flight and you'll see.
 
Are you talking just about the 320-degree turn or are you including the pull up? I would think that is the most difficult maneuver, not the turn itself.

Second, was Hanjour's former instructor saying he believed Hanjour could crash the plane into a bldg, or was he referring to the entire operation he had to pull off, including, hijacking, gaining the controls, pulling the turn, and then pulling up to fly horizontally into the Pentagon?

I see this as significant, if subtle, differences.

I was referring to the utterly unremarkable 320-degree turn and the pullup on final descent. You'll recall that I examined the latter in some depth, in response to idiotic claims made by Mr. Rob Balsamo about its allegely extreme g-loading.

Much like the 320-degree turn, data from the FDR and the location of the aircraft show signs of amateur behavior. The rate of descent is initially too fast, and the pilot noses up and down a bit around his target even a few seconds before impact. A true professional would have been a lot smoother and probably wouldn't have hit light poles. Nonetheless, the maneuver isn't that hard. Once again, Danish TV, simulator, totally untrained individual, 3 out of 3 successes. It's Easy. End of story.
 
Mr. MacKey,

Would you and any other experts (pilots, engineers, ect.), ever consider opening your own facebook group where you can answer questions related to 9/11? It would give you more control, which would eliminate alot of the noise.... Just to compliment this forum of course. You pretty mush have to use your real name (you could technically open a fake account).
 
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This is ridiculous. I go away for 24 hours, and when I return, there are well over 100 new posts, most of them nothing but bickering.

All of you need to quit it. That goes for the few remaining in the Truth Movement, and it goes for those mocking them equally. You all need to keep in mind that when you stoop to those levels, you are also leveling the playing field. If you know the facts, you are giving away your advantage, and you are attenuating what little hope there is of educating and finally moving beyond this behavior.

If I have to call in the schoolmarms, I will. Impress me with intelligent questions and restraint. This means you.

The following are examples of behavior that is utterly inappropriate. You will note that both sides are represented:





Now then, back to the purpose of this thread: Buried in the bickering and unsupported assertions are a few well-worn but appropriate questions. I will collect and rephrase them below.
Was Hani Hanjour capable of the maneuvers AA 77 executed?
The answer is a definite yes. Those maneuvers were well within the capabilities of the aircraft. While they were unusual in ordinary operation, being faster at lower speed, greater g-loading, and less steady than normal, these are all hallmarks of a bad pilot. Absolutely nothing about those maneuvers required quick reflexes, precision navigation, or operation close to the performance limits of the aircraft. All of them were, therefore, not only plausible but in fact indicative of an amateur, such as Hani Hanjour.

We can verify this quite easily. As already remarked in this thread -- and somehow lost in the noise -- are two relevant points of information. The first is that the man who trained Hani Hanjour believes he could have done it. As a flight instructor, he knows perfectly well that the task was relatively easy. Second, a television show in Europe ran an experiment using a 757 simulator, and proved that even someone with no flight experience at all could have done it. Hani could do it, and in all likelihood, so could you.
What about remote control of the aircraft?
We've had multiple discussions on this topic before. One excellent and concise whitepaper is here. Another thread on the topic is here.

To summarize, it is barely possible to infuse this technology into the aircraft, but it would require an extraordinary research effort to do so. It would also mean fabricating aircraft well ahead of time, and somehow switching them. Furthermore, it is not possible to fabricate these aircraft in a way that the pilots and maintainers would not detect the modification. And the wreckage of UA 93 in particular would lead to these devices being recovered.

"Remote Control" therefore requires hundreds of millions of dollars, complicity of the airlines, complicity of the pilots, and complicity of crash investigators. All of this buys you exactly no increase in performance or tactical advantage, and also introduces technical risk to go with the risk of discovery. The idea is a non-starter, just like other ideas that require a technological deus ex machina with no evidence in support.
Why was AA 77 not intercepted? That's NORAD's job, right?
This subject perhaps more than any other has been beat to death here. The total number of fighter aircraft available, in the entire country, was fourteen -- not because of "exercises," that was the doctrine at the time -- and most of those were chasing rumors off the Eastern seaboard. AA 77 briefly disappeared from primary radar coverage and became just another anomalous dot in the sea of air traffic. Coordination between NORAD and the FAA was slow. There were numerous other suspected hijacked aircraft. And the actual length of time between when AA 77 was identified as a target, and it crashed, was only two minutes.

This is what happens in the real world. Even under less challenging situations, the examples of Payne Stewart and Matthias Rust illustrate that expecting a prompt, efficient, armed response just because a transponder code changes, or a flight plan deviates, is simply unrealistic.

---

That should dispense with the argument. I invite follow-ups in any of the plethora of threads already devoted to these topics, of which I have given you examples. Bickering is, again, totally unwelcome and will be reported promptly.

My thanks to those few who are trying to adhere to the OP, and the spirit in which this thread was intended. I hope it has proven useful to some.


Ryan, you are commendably attempting to maintain the spirit of the OT, but LastChild has appeared under a new handle to resurrect ancient canards. Apparently you object to my characterization of him as "ineducable," but it's hard to conceive of a more appropriate word. We both urge him to read papers he refuses to read. That, I contend, is the violation of the spirit of your thread. What you choose to label "bickering" is reminding certain twoofers that they are up to their old tricks of endlessly trotting out the same thoroughly debunked rubbish.
 
Are you talking just about the 320-degree turn or are you including the pull up? I would think that is the most difficult maneuver, not the turn itself.

Second, was Hanjour's former instructor saying he believed Hanjour could crash the plane into a bldg, or was he referring to the entire operation he had to pull off, including, hijacking, gaining the controls, pulling the turn, and then pulling up to fly horizontally into the Pentagon?

I see this as significant, if subtle, differences.



No, you don't. To be very precise, you don't see anything at all here.
 
I've got to ask. How many "jihadists" have you fought this week, Pomeroo? One? Two? A dozen? Go on then, how many have you met, instead?


The jihadists have their hands full in Iraq and Afghanistan at the moment. It's understandable that you are unaware of that fact. When they were doing well, they were on the front pages of all the major liberal dailies. Now that they are being beaten badly, it's just not newsworthy.
 
That's entirely up for debate.
Not by anybody that actually know anything about flying. Only non-pilots like you fail to comprehend what it takes to fly an aircraft. So, take that demo flight and report back to us how it went. Are you that afraid of being wrong?
 
Not by anybody that actually know anything about flying. Only non-pilots like you fail to comprehend what it takes to fly an aircraft. So, take that demo flight and report back to us how it went. Are you that afraid of being wrong?

So what you make of pilots who do question the official narrative of Hanjour's strike on the Pentagon?

Let me guess, they're confused idiots, right?
 
So what you make of pilots who do question the official narrative of Hanjour's strike on the Pentagon?

Let me guess, they're confused idiots, right?
Those pilots are a handful, who lack knowledge, and have been debunked; start your own pilot thread and bring out their favorite false information and non-theories. So you have 0.001 percent of all pilots who support your view! You should try talking to pilots on your own, you ignore reheat and I, we have trained pilots in high performance jets and large jet aircraft. I have talked to many captains on 757/767 aircraft they do not support your ideas on this topic. I have not found one pilot I have worked with who supports your ideas or 9/11 truth. I was an active Air Force pilot on 9/11, still have not found one single pilot who supports 9/11 truth. You have to go to the internet where woo is concentrated to find pilots so poor on logical think they resort to making up lies and false information due to some unknown bias in them!

Are these the pilots who came up with 11.2 Gs for a pull-out, only shown to be wrong! Then they admit they are wrong and have failed to correct their error?

I would not call those dolts, idiots; they just lack knowledge and spew false ideas.

 
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The jihadists have their hands full in Iraq and Afghanistan at the moment. It's understandable that you are unaware of that fact. When they were doing well, they were on the front pages of all the major liberal dailies. Now that they are being beaten badly, it's just not newsworthy.
Oh, when you said "we", you didn't mean yourself personally, you meant the armed forces? I'm glad you are not equating your little forays into the JREF trenches with the efforts of soldiers on the front-line. Do you think the lull in jihadists mean intelligence is getting better, or they are becoming more effective at hiding?
 
Oh, when you said "we", you didn't mean yourself personally, you meant the armed forces? I'm glad you are not equating your little forays into the JREF trenches with the efforts of soldiers on the front-line. Do you think the lull in jihadists mean intelligence is getting better, or they are becoming more effective at hiding?

So..the jihadists MO is to hide? what are you saying?
 
Oh, when you said "we", you didn't mean yourself personally, you meant the armed forces?


Yes, your confusion is understandable. I often use the pronoun "we" to describe Americans in general. Some people think that I mean I am every American who exists, but all of those who think that are twoofers and none of them have triple-digit IQs.


I'm glad you are not equating your little forays into the JREF trenches with the efforts of soldiers on the front-line.


I'm glad--no, make that "amazed"-- that you were capable of figuring that out.

Do you think the lull in jihadists mean intelligence is getting better, or they are becoming more effective at hiding?


Intelligence is improving, thanks in part to the cooperation of the people of Iraq and Afghamistan who have learned to despise the Islamofascists for their brutality. This accounts for our ability to kill more of them.
 
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I have a question, but I don't think it deserves a new topic.

Did any of the hijackers attain US citizenship?
 
It gets back to this, which is indeed a big gaping hole in the troofer's theory. They are somehow competent enough to flawlessly pull off 9/11, yet they fail to plant some WMDs in Iraq? It doesn't make any sense. Regardless of that though, this issue is purely scientific and the science would say that the troof movement is bogus.
 

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