Merged Odds Standard for Preliminary Test

And the reasons for that have been explained to you.


M.
I think drkitten's distinction is crucial here, and we shouldn't muddy it.

The JREF certainly does have a consistent position. They do not, however, have a consistent standard. They are being entirely reasonable, fair, and scientific in approaching it this way.
 
The issue seems much simpler than nine pages of mathematical analysis would convey.

Rodney's original question was "what is needed to pass the preliminary test?", and that seems to have morphed into "what percentage successes are needed to pass the preliminary test?" Questions like these that reference generality for what is really a very subjective and specific response tend to be notoriously difficult to answer effectively, hence nine pages of bewildering mathematical arguments.

The odds the JREF applies seems to be related to the odds of success of the applicant. If there are odds involved, then the JREF naturally desires to make them as high as possible - they want to be certain that the applicant can, in fact, do what he says he can. The applicant desires to make them as loose as possible, wanting to win a million dollars (as Mr. Randi once put it, "a million dollars for less than an hour's work"). Through negotiation, both sides arrive at odds each consider acceptable.

It is important to note that odds are dependent upon the maximum amount of possible trials - saying things like "one in a thousand" implies that one thousand trials can be rigorously conducted, which in some cases is impractical (re: Landin, Jagannathan, Hubinsky) and in others not necessary (re: Yahweh, Hunter, Williams).

After an analysis of what is required for the test and what is available, both sides will work together to determine what odds the candidate must meet to pass the preliminary test. Placing a formal "one in one thousand" meter upon all trials implies that this is practical to do, which in several of the cases listed above it was simply not the case (anyone desiring to conduct a trial along these lines may freely find one thousand "letters written by persons now dead, whose receiver must be alive").

(I confess to being very new here, as my post count surely suggests, but as far as I understand the JREF's system of setting odds is listed above.)

~ MattC
 
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It is important to note that odds are dependent upon the maximum amount of possible trials - saying things like "one in a thousand" implies that one thousand trials can be rigorously conducted, which in some cases is impractical (re: Landin, Jagannathan, Hubinsky) and in others not necessary (re: Yahweh, Hunter, Williams).

Er, not at all.

Saying things like "one in a thousand" simply implies a calculated probability of 0.001; it makes no implications on the number of trials that can be rigorously conducted. If I remember Yahweh's claim correctly --- he was the one that was going to produce snow in Berkeley in August? -- we can calculate the odds of that happening simply by examining weather records. Since we've got something like 100 years of weather records for Berkeley CA, and 31 days of August weather for each year, a statistician can easily calculate the maximum probability of snow-in-August (and as you expect, it works out to be something less than 1 in 3100).

Similarly, if I claim to be able to tell you the exact order a (shuffled) deck of cards is in by
pendulum dowsing or something like that, my odds are 1 in 52!, again by direct calculation. But I only need one deck to do that.

In the case of "letters written by persons living or dead," assuming I can only tell you "living" or "dead" about the letter, I can hit odds of 1:1000 with only ten letters if I can get them all right. The problem is when I can't get them all right; if I can only get 70% correct, it will take many many more letters to allow for the possibility of errors.
 
I'll take your word for it and edit the post accordingly, you know more about statistics than I and it's best that my ramblings not be permitted to color the issue. Thank you for your clarification.

(edit: ... well, it seems I can't edit my own post. drkitten is right and should be considered so.)

~ MattC
 
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If there are odds involved, then the JREF naturally desires to make them as high as possible - they want to be certain that the applicant can, in fact, do what he says he can.
The crucial point you (and so many others here) are missing is that, if an applicant is not claiming spectacular results, to even tentatively establish that (s)he has a paranormal power will require a longer preliminary test than the JREF seems inclined to give. In Pavel's case, for example, he is claiming 70% accuracy when 50% accuracy would be expected by chance. However, if he performs at exactly a 70% hit rate over 40 trials, that will not beat odds of 1:1000, and so the JREF apparently would regard that as a failure of the preliminary test.
 
The crucial point you (and so many others here) are missing is that, if an applicant is not claiming spectacular results, to even tentatively establish that (s)he has a paranormal power will require a longer preliminary test than the JREF seems inclined to give.

We're not missing it.

We simply don't care. It would be one thing if Pavel (for example) had some sort of colorable right to attempt to win Randi's million, and he were being unjustly deprived of that right. But Randi is not in the business of testing subtle results and tentatively establishing the existence of paranormal powers.

Randi is in the business of exposing frauds and charlatans.

You might as well complain that there's something wrong with the local bus company because it won't take me from Atlanta to Toronto. It's not something wrong with the local bus company, but with the person making the complaint. If you want to go from Atlanta to Toronto, there are long-distance bus companies, there are airplanes, there are trains and there are car rental agencies.

Pavel is fundamentally standing at the wrong counter.
 
The crucial point you (and so many others here) are missing is that, if an applicant is not claiming spectacular results, to even tentatively establish that (s)he has a paranormal power will require a longer preliminary test than the JREF seems inclined to give.

I think that what you are missing, is that that is the intention. The claims that prompted the MDC weren't those that are almost imperceptible or not particularly spectacular. It was those individuals held up as remarkable that drew Randi's attention. This translates to at least a large effect size instead of the medium effect size Pavel is claiming.

Linda
 
I think that what you are missing, is that that is the intention. The claims that prompted the MDC weren't those that are almost imperceptible or not particularly spectacular. It was those individuals held up as remarkable that drew Randi's attention. This translates to at least a large effect size instead of the medium effect size Pavel is claiming.

Linda
What both you and drkitten seem to be saying is: "Yes, there may well be such a thing as the paranormal, but the JREF really doesn't care about that -- it only cares about exposing well-known psychic frauds." And yet, as recently as this year, Randi stated:

"It was March 6th, 1998, when the JREF Million-Dollar Challenge first came into existence. That’s almost ten years ago. It’s always been a simple, direct, matter: do what you claim you can do of a paranormal nature, and walk away with the prize." See http://www.randi.org/joom/swift/swift-january-4-2008-7.html#i4

So, if you two are correct, why doesn't the JREF stop the charade and admit that the MDC is designed only for a very limited purpose and folks like Pavel should not apply?
 
What both you and drkitten seem to be saying is: "Yes, there may well be such a thing as the paranormal, but the JREF really doesn't care about that -- it only cares about exposing well-known psychic frauds." And yet, as recently as this year, Randi stated:

"It was March 6th, 1998, when the JREF Million-Dollar Challenge first came into existence. That’s almost ten years ago. It’s always been a simple, direct, matter: do what you claim you can do of a paranormal nature, and walk away with the prize." See http://www.randi.org/joom/swift/swift-january-4-2008-7.html#i4

So, if you two are correct, why doesn't the JREF stop the charade and admit that the MDC is designed only for a very limited purpose and folks like Pavel should not apply?

How is that a charade? It's always had a very limited purpose - challenging those who claim they can do something that is obviously amazing, not those who claim to get lucky every once in a while. Pavel thought he could do something amazing and it turned out that he over-estimated his abilities. That's not Randi's fault.

Linda
 
And yet, as recently as this year, Randi stated:

"It was March 6th, 1998, when the JREF Million-Dollar Challenge first came into existence. That’s almost ten years ago. It’s always been a simple, direct, matter: do what you claim you can do of a paranormal nature, and walk away with the prize." See http://www.randi.org/joom/swift/swift-january-4-2008-7.html#i4

So, if you two are correct, why doesn't the JREF stop the charade and admit that the MDC is designed only for a very limited purpose and folks like Pavel should not apply?
I stressed the important part of Randi's statement. You are proposing that the MDC should be everything but a "simple, direct, matter".

People whose abilities tend to get lost in statistical noise should perhaps stop the charade of claiming that they have these abilities.
 
What both you and drkitten seem to be saying is: "Yes, there may well be such a thing as the paranormal, but the JREF really doesn't care about that -- it only cares about exposing well-known psychic frauds." And yet, as recently as this year, Randi stated:

"It was March 6th, 1998, when the JREF Million-Dollar Challenge first came into existence. That’s almost ten years ago. It’s always been a simple, direct, matter: do what you claim you can do of a paranormal nature, and walk away with the prize." See http://www.randi.org/joom/swift/swift-january-4-2008-7.html#i4

So, if you two are correct, why doesn't the JREF stop the charade and admit that the MDC is designed only for a very limited purpose and folks like Pavel should not apply?

Because it's not a charade.

Why are you trying to make Randi and the JREF into something that they have never been, never wanted to be, and never claimed to be?

(Answer : because it makes you feel good to lie about the JREF, because it lets you keep your delusions intact that the paranormal exists. The simple fact is that no competent researcher has ever found reliable evidence for the paranormal, but it looks better if you pick on Randi, who isn't a researcher at all and has never claimed to be.)
 
What both you and drkitten seem to be saying is: "Yes, there may well be such a thing as the paranormal, but the JREF really doesn't care about that -- it only cares about exposing well-known psychic frauds." And yet, as recently as this year, Randi stated:

"It was March 6th, 1998, when the JREF Million-Dollar Challenge first came into existence. That’s almost ten years ago. It’s always been a simple, direct, matter: do what you claim you can do of a paranormal nature, and walk away with the prize." See http://www.randi.org/joom/swift/swift-january-4-2008-7.html#i4

So, if you two are correct, why doesn't the JREF stop the charade and admit that the MDC is designed only for a very limited purpose and folks like Pavel should not apply?
Pavel's original claim certainly was incredible enough to qualify-it's only when he was confronted by the reality that he would have to back up his claims in a specific fashion that he slowly start muddying the waters with vague and complicated changes. Compare his originally simple claim on the first page with the protocol(such as it is) as it stands now.
 
Pavel's original claim certainly was incredible enough to qualify-it's only when he was confronted by the reality that he would have to back up his claims in a specific fashion that he slowly start muddying the waters with vague and complicated changes. Compare his originally simple claim on the first page with the protocol(such as it is) as it stands now.
Are you talking about his claim that ". . . i Have 80 PHOTOS ( not cards) its 80 different symbols like picture of horse..key..cross..etc.. they all unique .. so i have 80 of them.. and i am proposing to 'guess' minimum 3 out of ten that will be puled out of 80"? In any event, getting 70% correct when 50% would be expected by chance (as Pavel is now claiming) may not appear spectacular, but it would take fewer than 70 trials to beat odds of 1:1000 at that hit rate.
 
Are you talking about his claim that ". . . i Have 80 PHOTOS ( not cards) its 80 different symbols like picture of horse..key..cross..etc.. they all unique .. so i have 80 of them.. and i am proposing to 'guess' minimum 3 out of ten that will be puled out of 80"? In any event, getting 70% correct when 50% would be expected by chance (as Pavel is now claiming) may not appear spectacular, but it would take fewer than 70 trials to beat odds of 1:1000 at that hit rate.

His first contact was through the YouTube videos. What he chose to show there was a 100% hit rate.

Linda
 
His first contact was through the YouTube videos. What he chose to show there was a 100% hit rate.

Linda
Thanks for the link to that video. I had not seen it. It was surprising to me. It came across to me far, far, far more as a magic trick than the paranormal demonstration I was expecting.

Why does he shuffle empty envelopes? Why does he look directly in front of him while handling the photos and envelopes instead of looking at his hands like a normal person would? It is almost as though he were looking into a mirror or a screen showing back the live video.

And most importantly, as he places the photos in the envelopes, why does he twist each and every one to expose a significant portion of the image to the camera (or mirror or person or whatever or whoever is in front of him)? :boggled:
 
Odds Standard and Time-Consuming Protocols

On May 10, 2008, I sent the following e-mail to challenge@randi.org

I recently initiated the following thread on the Million Dollar
Challenge Forum --
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.p...18#post3692318

What I argue on that thread is that: (a) In tests where the odds of
success can be readily calculated, it is unclear what odds standard
must be met; and (b) It is unclear whether time-consuming protocols,
such as Ganzfeld experiments, are eligible for the Challenge.
Therefore, I recommend that something along the lines of the following
be added to the Challenge Rules:

"(1) An applicant must pass a preliminary test, in which the general
criterion for success will be that the applicant must perform at
significantly above the chance level. In tests where the odds of
success can be readily calculated -- such as numbers guessing -- the
applicant must perform at least at the P=.001 level; that is, the odds
must be only one in one thousand that the applicant could have
achieved that performance level by random chance. (However, if the
applicant achieves a lesser, but above chance, performance level in a
limited number of tests -- for example, if the applicant performs at
the P=.05 level in 20 trials -- the preliminary test may be extended
on a different day or days to include more trials.) If the applicant
passes the preliminary test, a final test will be administered, in
which the performance level must meet a significantly more stringent
criterion for the million dollar prize to be awarded. In tests where
the odds of success can be readily calculated, the applicant must
perform at least at the P=.000001 level; that is, for the prize to be
awarded, the odds must be only one in one million that the applicant
could have achieved that performance level by random chance.

"(2) All protocols, including time-consuming ones such as Ganzfeld
experiments, are eligible for the Challenge; or

"(2a) Some time-consuming protocols, such as Ganzfeld experiments, are
not eligible for the Challenge due to the impact on JREF resources."

If you wish, you may respond to these questions on the above thread.

Thank you,

Rodney
__________________________________________________ ________________________

On February 3, 2009, I attached the above e-mail to a follow-up e-mail:

I did not receive a response to the below inquiry. Some Randi Forum participants suggested that I jog your memory about it.

Regards,

Rodney
__________________________________________________ ________________________

The next day Jeff Wagg responded as follows:

Hello Rodney,

Thanks for the suggestions. So you know, the challenge rules are being reconsidered, and we'll take your suggestions into account.

If we do make changes, they'll be posted publicly.

Jeff
__________________________________________________ _________________________
While it was nice of Jeff to respond to my follow-up e-mail, my suggestions were never taken into account. The JREF Challenge Rules were not changed to accommodate those concerns (See http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/...plication.html), nor did I ever receive a "detailed and official answer" as to why the JREF Challenge Rules could not be so clarified. Thus, to this day, it remains unclear what odds standard must be met and whether time-consuming protocols are eligible for the Challenge.
 
Because the MDC rules weren't changed in accord with my suggestions, and I received no explanation as to why not.

Your reasoning is incorrect, that they did not make changes as you suggested does not mean that they did not take your suggestions into account.
 
Because the MDC rules weren't changed in accord with my suggestions, and I received no explanation as to why not.

Why do you think the JREF should explain to you why the MDC rules weren't changed in accord with your suggestions?
 

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