• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

octuplets

I really have to wonder about the doctor who went ahead with IVF treatments anyway, if it involved implanting up to eight embryos. Who does that? I honestly can't imagine a doctor owning up to that and keeping his or her license. Years ago, they routinely implanted up to four embryos, but it seems that they've decreased that to two or three in recent years.

The whole situation just seems so insane. It's like this Nadya woman can do whatever she wants and everyone else just kowtows to her wishes. (Parents, sperm donor, doctors...)
 
I don't see anything wrong with denying someone who already has six children fertility treatments, even if she is infertile. In this specific case it is absolutely immoral act on her part to have more children.

Personally, I think the state has every right to investigate the possibility that she is insane and needs to have her children removed from her care.
 
Gord in Toronto, Tassie Skeptic is quite right, this site is intended to discuss the octuplets.
I bet there are lawyers gathering around her hospital room, this looks like a possible medical malpractice lawsuit if she was not mentally competent.
 
On Geraldo tonight they were saying that the cost of the babies neonatal care alone is going to be $500,000. They are supposedly looking to make money off this already contacting agents.
 
BPSCG said:
So you favor regulations that would prohibit paying for fertility treatments with government funds, e.g., Medicaid?
Click to expand...

I don't see the need for "regulations" to prevent it--what's Medicaid's procedure? To do it? I have difficulty believing that, seeing how much of a struggle it is to get Medicaid to pay for cancer treatments. Medicaid doesn't just write out checks on request.

So when a woman goes to a doctor and says she wants fertility treatments, should the doctor insist she complete a financial statement, subject to verification, proving that she will not become a drain on the taxpayers by having children?
Click to expand...

No, because the doctor isn't in the business of minding her business. If she wants fertility treatments and can pay for them, then she can go for it. Or if the doctors want to work for free, they can do that. What shouldn't happen is someone should go to the doctor, request an unnecessary medical procedure, then ask the government to pay for it.

Here's the breakdown:

Your money? You can have any procedure you can afford, necessary or not.
No money? You can have any necessary procedure with government assistance.

And in this case, was she getting the treatments on government dime? I've been reading where Kaiser Permanente's been making statements about the case...doesn't that mean she's their insured? If a private insurer feels like forking out for fertility treatments, that's their business.
 
Roma Hart said:
TragicMonkey, I remember hearing about U.S. hospital practice that if a fetus is aborted and survives it is bundled up in a blanket and left in a storage closet to die alone. There was a nurse interviewed who got into trouble for picking up one of those "survivors" and cuddling it in her arms until it died. There was a vote to change that practice and CNN reported that Obama voted against it.
Click to expand...

For heaven's sake, use your brain. Aborted fetuses, wiggling or not, would be considered biomedical waste. Nobody sticks biomedical waste in a closet in a blanket. Are these hospitals run by medieval midwives? You can't even throw a hypodermic in a trash can in a hospital, much less stick corpses in closets!

Because people are stupid about their idealogies, they frequently swallow the large lies. But can't you see the small one makes it ridiculous? Closets? Blankets? Straight out of a book of horrors. The closet because that's what children are afraid of. Blankets because they're supposed to be cuddly. Then the nurse that for some reason works at this awful hospital, is complicit in multiple fetus murderations as described, but then is so sweetnatured she takes one out of the closet (that she was an accessory to putting it into in the first place!) and "cuddles it". BS, BS, BS.

It would be a thousand times more believable if you had said that sometimes aborted fetuses aren't completely dead, and then they're disposed of properly and sanitarily. Isn't that awful enough without inventing ridiculous details meant to make it seem worse? Especially when it backfires and makes the whole thing proufoundly silly!

For god's sake, if you must debate abortion, do it honestly. If it's really that bad, you shouldn't need to invent tragic details to bolster your argument.
 
The Southern California woman who gave birth to octuplets this week conceived all 14 of her children through in vitro fertilisation, is not married and has been obsessed with having children since she was a teenager, her mother said.
Angela Suleman said she was not supportive when her daughter, Nadya Suleman, decided to have more embryos implanted last year.
"It can't go on any longer," she said in a phone interview on Friday. "She's got six children and no husband. I was brought up the traditional way. I firmly believe in marriage. But she didn't want to get married."
Click to expand...


http://www.theage.com.au/world/octuplets-mum-obsessed-with-kids-20090201-7uok.html


Her mum says she's nuts. The behaviour her mother describes, and the her obvious inability to recognise the problems of her situation before the octuplets, seem to bear this out.
 
If the tabloid reports mentioned earlier in the thread are correct (I know, I know) that she previously worked in an IVF clinic, my hunch is that she stole some fertility drugs and got herself pregnant while taking them. No IVF and implanting 8 embryos required.
 
Can you buy those fertility drugs on the internet ?
 
Roma Hart said:
No stretch at all, I told you what I heard on CNN, I provided you with a web site that reiterates it: fetuses that survive are left to die alone in a storage closet, Obama voted against a bill that would change that. What's different?
The web site provides an explanation from Obama.
Click to expand...

What's different is the part you conveniently didn't discuss (bolding mine):

"Obama's campaign website offers two reasons why the senator opposed the bill in 2003. First, the website claims that Obama did not support the state legislation because it lacked language "clarifying that the act would not be used to undermine Roe vs. Wade." The website cites Obama's assertion that he would have supported the similar federal born-alive bill, which included language clarifying that it would not undermine Roe v. Wade when it unanimously passed the Senate in 2001."

... and your point was, what exactly? Obama is bad? Abortions are bad? Legal loopholes that may undermine Roe v. Wade are good? Half-informed appeals to emotion are good?

You should have included Obama's reasons in your "babies dying in closets and Obama didn't vote against it!!!" appeal. While you didn't exactly bear false witness, you did leave out a vital part. It was at least as important to mention why Obama didn't support the bill and that he would have favored the bill if the language had been clarified.

Then again, that would really undermine your supposed point.
 
Fox News

The mother of octuplets born in California last week is seeking $2 million from media interviews and commercial endorsements to help pay the costs of raising the children, the Times of London reported.

Nadya Suleman, 33, plans a career as a television childcare expert. It was learned last week that she already had six children before giving birth to eight more. She now has 14 children younger than 8 years old.


Although still confined to a Los Angeles hospital bed, Suleman reportedly intends to talk to two influential television hosts this week — media mogul Oprah Winfrey and Diane Sawyer.

Her family has told agents she needs cash from media deals.

[more]
Click to expand...

How bizarre that she thinks giving birth to 14 children makes her qualified to be an expert in raising children.
 
Roma Hart said:
You don't have to believe anything I say, but you could go to this web site and read it for yourselves:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/015/404kfgky.asp
Click to expand...

I went to a few websites, not just one. Some supported Stanek's assertions, but had no more proof for them than "this is what she said." Others cited Illinois law:

http://masbury.wordpress.com/2008/10/31/the-obama-infanticide-hoax/

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...is-born-alive-abortion-law-becomes-campaign-/

Illinois already had a law on its books from 1975 that said if a doctor suspected an abortion was scheduled for a viable fetus — meaning able to survive outside of the mother's body — then the child must receive medical care if it survives the abortion. The new laws didn't distinguish between viable and nonviable, meaning that an infant of any age that survived an abortion should receive care.
Click to expand...

What happens to a non-viable fetus that survives an abortion but which, even with care, cannot survive for long (long being a relative term that I suppose, if I had to guess, could mean anything from seconds to more than an hour)? I don't know. I can't find any sites that say what happens to them. For one thing, it would depend on the abortion method used. After some procedures, there isn't anything left that could, in any way, "survive."

But I'm not accepting Stanek's assertions until and unless she shows some sort of evidence. Frankly, she sounds like she has an agenda, and isn't beyond inventing or distorting a story to make a point.

As to the young lady who "survived" her mother's late-term abortion: she was a viable fetus, albeit premature. She survived because laws were already in place to insure that she received care after the procedure. Her claim that "if Obama had his way, I wouldn't have lived" is patently false.

I've engaged in selective evidence, and getting my butt and my fallacies handed to me as a result is quite unpleasant. I now try to examine all sides, especially the side I take as being against my point of view.

I often learn a lot.
 
Informative article about the medical ethics involved.

Suleman has yet to reveal how the babies were conceived, or which clinic or doctor was involved -- her publicist said she has "reserved that part of her story" for now, and Kaiser said it was not involved in the conception.

Typically, doctors use one of two procedures. One is in vitro fertilization, whereby doctors combine eggs and sperm in a laboratory, creating embryos, and transfer a small number into the uterus. The second is intrauterine insemination, in which doctors stimulate the ovaries to produce eggs and follow that with artificial insemination.

In both procedures, doctors said, they work with two to three embryos, or four at the very most. But never eight.

For a woman in her early 30s, like Suleman, ASRM guidelines for in vitro fertilization call for no more than two transferred embryos.
Click to expand...

David C. Magnus, director of the Stanford Center for Biomedical Ethics, said that if the octuplets were produced through in vitro fertilization, it would spotlight the poorly regulated infertility and reproduction field.

"This is a huge problem," Magnus said. "You've got a virtually unregulated marketplace with tort law serving as regulation in the U.S."
Click to expand...
The professional organizations should take a stricter line with doctors and clinics, he said. "They've been very loath to take that action."

But "if you leave it up to the marketplace," he added, "there will be abuses."
Click to expand...
 
I'm worried about the octuplets going to jr. highschool. Other kids can be so mean.

With luck, they'll start a band; maybe have a tv show.
 
Policenaut said:
On Geraldo tonight they were saying that the cost of the babies neonatal care alone is going to be $500,000. They are supposedly looking to make money off this already contacting agents.
Click to expand...

The New York Daily News reported that the hospital costs were about $100,000 per baby.

She's also shopping her story around to the highest bidder. I read that she was willing to go on Oprah for $2 million.
 
quarky said:
I'm worried about the octuplets going to jr. highschool. Other kids can be so mean.

With luck, they'll start a band; maybe have a tv show.
Click to expand...

Are you kidding? They can be their own street gang. Nobody will dare to mess with them. "You're on our turf, man. This alley belongs to the Octopus Lords." Or they could go all creepy and pretend to communicate telepathically. "We are not eight people. We are one mind with eight bodies. There can be only eight!" Either way, people will fear The Eight. They're just one shy of being the Nazgul.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom