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octuplets

LibraryLady

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LibraryLady
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I looked but couldn't find another thread on this story.

Kauffman reported Thursday, and the octuplets' maternal grandmother now confirms to the Los Angeles Times, that the babies' mother already had six young children.

And a family acquaintance had told Kauffman that two of the six other kids are twins, and the six range in age from about two to about seven.

The mother's name is still being kept under wraps.

But her mother, Angela Suleman, also tells the newspaper her daughter conceived the octuplets through a fertility program.
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The grandfather of all these 14 children is a retired Iraqi military man who has returned to Iraq to help earn money to support these children. No father has been mentioned by the family.

I am horrified by this story, because it just seems like terrible ethics on both the fertility doctor's and the mother's part. However, when I nail it down in my head (there's an image for you), I think, she has the right to get pregnant if she likes and the doctor doesn't have the right to refuse treatment on the grounds of her previous children.

But wait, doesn't she have the moral responsibility to her older children to care for them before conceiving more and shouldn't the doctor's priority be to families who have no children first.

But on the other hand...

I'm morally confused here
 
I seem to remember in Mandy Allwood's case (who sadly lost all 8 of the babies) she became pregnant after having unprotected sex (against advice) while taking fertility drugs to stimulate ovulation. I assumed the same was probably true in this case. I know they routinely implant more embryos in IVF in the US than they do in the UK, but even so, I don't think any doctor would implant so many.
 
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LibraryLady said:
I am horrified by this story, because it just seems like terrible ethics on both the fertility doctor's and the mother's part.
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But isn't the decision whether to have children or abort them a decision that should be made only by the mother and her doctor, not by the government or anyone else? Who are we to judge whether a woman's choice is right or wrong?

However, when I nail it down in my head (there's an image for you), I think, she has the right to get pregnant if she likes and the doctor doesn't have the right to refuse treatment on the grounds of her previous children.
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A doctor doesn't have the right to refuse to give her fertility drugs? I understand a doctor has an obligation to treat illnesses or disease, but does this qualify?

But wait, doesn't she have the moral responsibility to her older children to care for them before conceiving more and shouldn't the doctor's priority be to families who have no children first.
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Yikes, I'd think six children would be more than enough to handle already.
But on the other hand...

I'm morally confused here
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[total speculation]
Wait until you find out that she's a single mom and that she's on Medicaid. And that the unnamed father is actually the grandfather who's gone back to Iraq, not just to make money to pay for the kids (wages in Iraq are higher than in the U.S.? Who knew?) but to avoid criminal prosecution for incest.
[/total speculation]
 
I've been thinking about this story as well. There's definitely a lot to this story that's not come out yet. The grandmother is saying that it was fertility treatments and that all the eggs implanted "took" which they definitely weren't planning on. While I'm definitley not saying that one should only have kids while in a marriage/partnership, something is strange about a single (as we have been given no hints as to a husband/partner here) woman with six young kids already going through fertility treatments and subsequently bearing eight more kiddos. Perhaps the reason that she's requested anonimity is because the husband/partner is in the military, prison or has some job that requires that he's away from the family for long stretches of time? Surely the grandparents told her at some point, "you and your six kids are already living with us, maybe you don't need to be having more kids at this point, much less going through the pain and expense of fertility treatments?" The grandfather is having to go back to Iraq to make money to support these kids?

What in the world was this woman thinking?
 
Possible ways it could have happened:

1. How do octuplets happen?
Not easily. Human females are designed to release one egg per month - even a release of two eggs, which could lead to twins, is unusual (that, after all, is why women have just the two nipples - in species where multiple births are common, the females are better endowed with feeding equipment). For a woman to conceive eight babies naturally, she would need to release maybe four or five eggs (extremely unlikely), and all or most of the eggs, once fertilised, would have to go on to split to form twins or triplets (again, this would be mind-bogglingly rare).
What's more likely is for octuplets to be conceived as a result of fertility treatment, if a number of fertilised eggs were returned to the womb and these went on to split into two or three babies. (This couldn't happen in the UK, because a maximum of two fertilised eggs only can be returned to the womb - but that rule doesn't apply in the US.) Yet another possibility would be if a woman who was taking fertility drugs to stimulate egg production had unprotected sex - which is how Mandy Allwood, who got pregnant with octuplets in 1996 but then miscarried, conceived hers.
As far as the unidentified new mother from Los Angeles who gave birth to octuplets this week is concerned, we are none the wiser - the hospital where she gave birth, Bellflower medical centre, is refusing to say whether fertility treatments were involved in this conception or not.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/jan/28/octuplets-health-wellbeing-birth-family
 
There may well be "a lot of this story that hasn't come out yet". I doubt it should come out since it is probably none of the public's business.
 
One more fertility treatment and she beats out Stacy Dugger!
 
BPSCG said:
But isn't the decision whether to have children or abort them a decision that should be made only by the mother and her doctor, not by the government or anyone else? Who are we to judge whether a woman's choice is right or wrong?

A doctor doesn't have the right to refuse to give her fertility drugs? I understand a doctor has an obligation to treat illnesses or disease, but does this qualify?

Yikes, I'd think six children would be more than enough to handle already.
[total speculation]
Wait until you find out that she's a single mom and that she's on Medicaid. And that the unnamed father is actually the grandfather who's gone back to Iraq, not just to make money to pay for the kids (wages in Iraq are higher than in the U.S.? Who knew?) but to avoid criminal prosecution for incest.
[/total speculation]
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That's quite a huge leap, what's wrong with you that you would accuse an innocent man so Willy Nilly like that.
 
Roma Hart said:
That's quite a huge leap, what's wrong with you that you would accuse an innocent man so Willy Nilly like that.
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You need to go back and take note of the [total speculation] brackets in that post, and ponder what I might have meant by that.
 
My understanding was that (no source handy, sorry) was that the fertility doctor had actually implanted eight embryos, and they all took. Considering her past fertility, and that generally IVF only uses a couple embryos, that does seem irresponsible.
 
Francesca R said:
I see no problems with the medical ethics of this situation.
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I think I do, unless the woman somehow misled the doctor. But implanting 8 embryos in a demonstrably fertile woman seems excessive to me. Especially when implanting 2 seems to be the norm.

BPSCG said:
But isn't the decision whether to have children or abort them a decision that should be made only by the mother and her doctor, not by the government or anyone else? Who are we to judge whether a woman's choice is right or wrong?
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Yes, absolutely, I agree with you. However, this is such an extreme case that it just gave me pause. (or paws)

A doctor doesn't have the right to refuse to give her fertility drugs? I understand a doctor has an obligation to treat illnesses or disease, but does this qualify?
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Infertility is indeed a medical condition--believe me I know. I think it does qualify. But this situation. Paws.


The Mutha said:
Unless we're reading the story wrong and it's the father who is going to Iraq to earn money... It's a little ambiguous to me.

"Suleman said she was concerned about her daughter's homecoming because her husband, a contract worker, is due to return to Iraq." from the CNN report -- http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/01/30/mother.octuplets/index.html
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No. it definitely seems to be the grandfather who's going to return to Iraq.

Francesca R said:
There may well be "a lot of this story that hasn't come out yet". I doubt it should come out since it is probably none of the public's business.
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I talk about a lot of things that are none of my business. :D

BPSCG said:
You need to go back and take note of the [total speculation] brackets in that post, and ponder what I might have meant by that.
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I think Beeps was being satirical of someone who might speculate like that.
 
BPSCG said:
You need to go back and take note of the [total speculation] brackets in that post, and ponder what I might have meant by that.
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I though the words "accusing an innocent man" was sufficient clue when that person speculated that the grandfather of the of the octuplets was really the father.
 
BPSCG, please, please, try to work with me here.
I think that the fact anyone would just Willy Nilly accuse an innocent man of incest with not a shred of evidence is dangerous.
The grandfather of those octuplets has a daughter with "a problem", lets say. He is supporting her, her other six children, and is now risking his life going over to a dangerous country to do hazardous work. Let's acknowlege that he is a responsible man.
Why on earth would you or anyone else think that he is leaving to escape charges of incest? That, is a huge leap unworthy of a true skeptic.
 
Roma Hart said:
BPSCG, please, please, try to work with me here.
I think that the fact anyone would just Willy Nilly accuse an innocent man of incest with not a shred of evidence is dangerous.
The grandfather of those octuplets has a daughter with "a problem", lets say. He is supporting her, her other six children, and is now risking his life going over to a dangerous country to do hazardous work. Let's acknowlege that he is a responsible man.
Why on earth would you or anyone else think that he is leaving to escape charges of incest? That, is a huge leap unworthy of a true skeptic.
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Roma, I truly believe that Beeps was being satirical.
 
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