Obama's "Uninsured Americans" Lie

[ponderingturtle]

Hospitals refuse preventative and maintainance health care, but do not turn away people in life threatening conditions. They can not. If they do, it would be one heck of a PR hit.

No they would be thrown in jail, it is illegal not just bad press.

 

[drkitten]

You're missing BAC's point, which is that a large fraction are not Americans, but illegal immigrants.

Except that his numbers don't support his point. He wrote that "that same census report estimated there were 9.5 million people in the US who were not citizens" -- which not only doesn't imply that they are illegal immigrants (hell, the Turkish Ambassador is "not a citizen") but also doesn't implied that they are uninsured (again, I'm sure the Turkish Ambassador has better insurance than I have.)

 

[joobz]

No they would be thrown in jail, it is illegal not just bad press.

My mistake. But the point is even if it wasn't illegal, it would still be impossible in a "free market". Hospitals can't refuse life saving measures.

 

[ponderingturtle]

My mistake. But the point is even if it wasn't illegal, it would still be impossible in a "free market". Hospitals can't refuse life saving measures.

Yes that is why people who think we lack a universal system are dumb. It is just a horribly inefficient overly expensive system that gives many poor results.

For example a woman dies trough a stroke because she couldn't afford her blood pressure medication. The hospital had to spend more on treating her than it would cost to give her 100 years of BP medication. This is the efficiency of the free market.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

FactCheck.org has an article on this topic:

http://www.factcheck.org/politics/the_real_uninsured.html

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Except that his numbers don't support his point. He wrote that "that same census report estimated there were 9.5 million people in the US who were not citizens" -- which not only doesn't imply that they are illegal immigrants (hell, the Turkish Ambassador is "not a citizen") but also doesn't implied that they are uninsured (again, I'm sure the Turkish Ambassador has better insurance than I have.)

Exactly.

Further, I never saw Obama claim that "nearly 50 million" U.S. citizens are uninsured anyway.


I also never saw any claim made about a certain income. The factcheck article I just cited makes the point that:

Twenty percent of the uninsured have family incomes of greater than $75,000 per year, according to the Census Bureau. But this does not necessarily mean they have access to insurance. Even higher-income jobs don't always offer employer-sponsored insurance, and not everyone who wants private insurance is able to get it.

Again, I'm reasonably sure Obama was relying on information from the Census Bureau and extrapolating from trends that the number is almost certainly increasing in 2009.

By the way, the number of people who were uninsured for at least one month during 2005 was 65.9 million.

 

[Shalamar]

Exactly.
By the way, the number of people who were uninsured for at least one month during 2005 was 65.9 million.

Oooo.. That Lying Obama... He said the number was only 50 million when it was higher!

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Oooo.. That Lying Obama... He said the number was only 50 million when it was higher!

Reminds me of another of BaC's recent "Obama is a liar" threads--where he claimed it was a lie that the stimulus has saved or created 150,000 jobs. At one point, BaC seemed to be saying the number should be higher.

 

[BeAChooser]

"The 47 million Americans that are without health insurance today, a very large portion of them are healthy young Americans who simply choose not to" sign up for it..."

John McCain at a healthcare forum in California in February of '08.

Rest assured that if McCain were President and advocating the same sort of takeover of the health care business that Obama and the democrats are proposing, I'd be calling McCain out for lying too.

So, clearly Bush was trying to help the stupid, lying democrats by not immediately pointing out that the number of uninsured was wrong.

Bush greatly disliked confrontation and much too often tried to appease democrats on social issues rather than confront their lies. He even just "moved on" where one of the great liars of all time in the democrat party was concerned. You know who I'm talking about.

 

[BeAChooser]

Is the exact number of people unable to afford health insurance all that important? Even if it's 30 million, or 20 million, is that acceptable in a modern, civilised, first-world country?

First of all, as I proved, the number of citizens who couldn't afford health insurance in that 46 million uninsured claim was much smaller than even 20 million. And the presence of people in a society who can't afford health insurance may only represent a much deeper problem that will not be solved by simply giving them insurance. Your solution (with it's communist undertones) may actually only make things worse because it's been proven that communist ideologies are complete failures when it comes to raising the standard of living of societies. In the end, all they do is end up making everyone much poorer and ultimately destroy the health system due to lack of resources. Also, your willingness to simply ignore the illegal component of the figures cited by Obama and the democrats does not solve the underlying problem of illegals in this country. I don't suppose you are recommending Obama throw them out ... as you claim is routinely done in your country? By the way, what country is that?

 

[BeAChooser]

46.6 million uninsured in 2005. Then saying there are "nearly 50 million uninsured" now is not a lie.

Pay attention, Joe.

The issue is that they called those 46 million "Americans"

And said they didn't have health insurance because they "couldn't afford" it.

There is the lie.

 

[BeAChooser]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat
You're missing BAC's point, which is that a large fraction are not Americans, but illegal immigrants.

He has no evidence of that claim.

Other than the 2005 US census report?

Quote:
The large majority of the uninsured (80 percent) are native or naturalized citizens.

But 20 percent is not insignificant. It's about 9.5 million people out of the 46 million. Why didn't Obama just say 36.5 million Americans were uninsured? Why'd he lie and say 46, when the data was in the US census and this discrepancy has been pointed out in the media over and over?

The footnote cites a Kaiser Family Foundation report.

And did you note that as stated in the OP, the Kaiser Family Foundation (KFF) puts the number of uninsured Americans who make less than $50,000 and do not qualify for current government health programs at between 8.2 and 13.9 million? And they say that the lower number only includes the chronically uninsured. That's a far cry from the 46 million figure that Obama and democrats keep regurgitating.

That means that the 46.6 million was probably an undercount for the number of people without insurance since the Census underestimated the number of illegals. Surely he doesn't suppose that the 46.6 million figure somehow included all the illegals, but the Census underestimated illegals at the same time.

You are correct. It was a mistake to reduce the 46 million by 18 to 20 million. But a reduction of 10 to 11 million given the uncertainties in the percentage that the census said were uninsured isn't unreasonable. So perhaps Obama should just have said that 35 to 36 million Americans are uninsured. Ok?

Of course, you've completely ignored the point about being able to "afford" health insurance. Over and over I heard top democrats say these 46 million don't have health insurance because it's too expensive and they couldn't afford it. Care to comment on the apparent fact that 17 million of those people (mostly the citizens) made more than the median income in the US at the time? You'd agree, wouldn't you, that those people certainly could have afforded health care? So why didn't Obama and the democrats be more honest and say 18 to 19 million Americans can't afford health insurance instead of lying that 46 million Americans can't?

 

[oldhat]

You'd agree, wouldn't you, that those people certainly could have afforded health care?

No. If you have HIV/AIDS, cancer, a condition which requires heart surgeries, a child with mental retardation, seizures, etc., no, you can't afford health insurance even if you make the median income. They're called pre-existing conditions and health insurance companies won't cover you.

Stop thinking you're making brilliant deductions (i.e. an oven mitt proves Bill Clinton and Ken Starr conspired together to murder Vince Foster, Barack Obama is a secret Muslim Communist Indonesian, etc.)

 

[BeAChooser]

It neglects the fact that the number of uninsured Americans has gone up since 2005.

But I noted that fact. I also noted the fact that the number of illegals has gone up too.

 

[BeAChooser]

Maybe Obama is misleading or maybe he just doesn't know.

Can he really be this clueless on so many different issues?

Or is he as smart as those on the left claim?

In which case, how can he not know that he was lying?

How can he not know he was lying the other day when he said the stimulus package was performing "exactly as anticipated"? When his own administration promised that with the stimulus package we'd see a peak unemployment rate of 8%? Hmmmmm?

I think he's a liar. And I've pointed out numerous examples on this forum where what he said was assuredly a lie ... unless he's stupid. Now that's a possibility because he certainly is stuck on stupid were several issues are concerned. The most recent being his apparent declaration that even knowing what we know today, he would not have changed anything about the stimulus package.

 

[fullflavormenthol]

Many of those "affordable" plans suck. Either by having a huge deductable or they are plans that are sold in 6 month policies; or both.

 

[BeAChooser]

Wait a second. The claim is that Obama lied by saying that the number of uninsured Americans is "nearly 50 million".

From the Census information, that sounds like a pretty accurate estimate.

Except that Obama and the democrats are also on record months ago stating that the number of uninsured Americans is 46 million, exactly what the 2005 census said. Now if they want to claim that the number of uninsured Americans has grown to nearly 50 million, perhaps we should look at the growth in uninsured illegals since 2005?

 

[tyr_13]

Many of those "affordable" plans suck. Either by having a huge deductable or they are plans that are sold in 6 month policies; or both.

I make less than $10,000 last year, but still too much to qualify for the state plan. Through work I could get an HMO plan for about $150 a month, but it covers, well, almost nothing. The similar plan that I just did get on is about $60 a month.

Very affordable right? Well my deductible is $1000. If it costs less than that, I have to pay. The co-pay is also 20%. That means that if I had to have a life saving surgery, that cost $100,000, I'd have to pay $21,000. Not only that, but all the tests and whatnot that lead up to it? Yeah, I'd pay for 20% of each of them. No dental. No prescription. No eye. No nothing of the sort.

Basically if something bad does happen, like I got testicular cancer or hurt my back worse than it is now, I'd still be ****ed, just not royally ****ed.

My mother's boyfriend, a contractor, would have to pay over $1,000 a month for health insurance. He can't do that. Recently he injured his back and his knee. This puts the entire household at risk. But hell, just one more person who could have, in theory, had insurance.

But hey, one less person to count for that 50 million right? Right? Guess Obama is a liar because someone doesn't count people for silly important reasons, like that person believes those people could afford it if they really, really wanted it.

And calling Obama a liar is the important thing here. Not to cover hard working contractors and the households (one autistic brother, a brittle diabetic grandmother, a waitress, a college student, and a Sam's Club employee) that depend on their income, or 25 year olds with back problems from a broken back at 16. Nope. Obama has to be a liar. Because that makes it wrong to try to help any of the aforementioned people.

 

[Fiona]

I don't know anything about this really. I found this:

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=628

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=621

It specifically refers to Americans: that seems strange if the figures include people who are not citizens but perhaps it is sloppy language?

The percentage of Americans without insurance rose to 15.9 percent in 2005, higher than the 15.6 percent level in 2004 and much higher than the 14.9 percent level in 2001.
The percentage of Americans who are uninsured rose largely because the percentage of people with employer-sponsored coverage continued to decline, as it has in the past several years.

<snip>

The percentage of native-born citizens who were uninsured rose in 2005, while the percentage of non-citizen immigrants who lacked coverage was unchanged. Nonetheless, non-citizen immigrantswere far more likely to be uninsured (43.6 percent uninsured) than native-born citizens (13.4 percent). The principal reason so many immigrants lack insurance is that they are less likely to be offered health insurance by their employers.[1]

I was quite interested to read this:

n 31 states, the percentage of residents who are uninsured was significantly higher in the 2004-2005 period than in 2000-2001, before the current economic recovery began. The 31 states with significant increases were Arkansas, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, West Virginia, and Wisconsin.[2]

I do not know enough about either geography or immigration in the USA: are illegal immigrants evenly distributed throughout all states? I wouldn't have thought so since what I tend to hear about is illiegal immigration from the south. But I do not know. Nor do I know if the 31 states where this happened are the same states with a high (and growing) percentage of illegal immigrants. Perhaps someone can tell me?

The same paper states that

A new research study by Jack Hadley, a health economist at the Urban Institute, found that the main reason that adults’ private insurance coverage has faded in recent years is that the costs of insurance premiums have climbed, making coverage less affordable for employers and employees alike. Hadley also found that rising private insurance premiums have led to higher Medicaid enrollment of adults, as low-income workers are squeezed out of private coverage and into Medicaid.[3] Data from the Kaiser Family Foundation show that, on average, employers are requiring employees to contribute more in cost-sharing (i.e., premiums, deductibles, and/or copayments) for their health insurance and that fewer small businesses are offering health coverage.[4]

Since some of that is from the Kaiser institute which BAC cited I assume there is a reason why their conclusions appear to be different here?

The second part says:

Overall median income increased from $49,568 in 2006 to $50,233 in 2007, compared to $49,455 in 2001. But median income for working-age households (i.e., those headed by someone under 65) remained statistically unchanged from the 2006 level and was $1,100 below its level in the recession year of 2001 — and $2,000 below its level for 2000 when the previous economic expansion peaked.

Would this decline not tend to put insurance out of reach of some working age households:? Most of us tend to live up to our income, I think: so a real-terms fall is likely to bite. I do not know the distribution of income but if the median income for working people is falling on average there are perhaps going to be more people who cannot afford increased premiums even on that wage? I see that more people enrolled in public programmes and this meant more were insured. But from all I have read here the public programmes are not very good and if that is true then people would surely not do it if they could afford better provision? At least not those people who previously did have better provision: there is no reason to suppose the many, many people suddenly had an attack of fecklessness, is there? Maybe they put something in the water ?

The number and percentage of Americans without insurance remained, however, well above the figures for 2001. In that year, 39.8 million Americans, or 14.1 percent of the population, were uninsured.

(compared to 15.3% in 2007)

2001 was the height of the last recession according to this: so what we would have to conclude is that people's priorities changed quite a lot in that period: or that this is indeed attributable to changes in ability to afford it: since the decline was reversed in 2007 because of increased enrolment in public programmes there does not seem to be much to commend the idea they just decided not to bother. Or so I think

I was also interested in the fact that the census uses the median as a measure. The median, as I understand it, is the midpoint of a distribution. It is a strange measure to use because I cannot really see how it can be argued that the median will necessarily represent a living wage. If a great many people fall into poverty the median will shift downwards regardless. In this case the median is given as around $50,000 pa: and the same paper says that the poverty line is defined as $21,200pa for a family of four. Typical rent is said to be $8,800. I know that the poorest families rely on food banks in america so I cannot say that a family can live at all on this poverty line: so is $50.000 enough to live on and buy insurance or not? I do not know

The paper also says that the increase in poverty was not driven by immigration

Over the 2001-2007 period, the number of people in poverty grew by 4.4 million, with 84 percent of the increase due to an increase in the number of citizens in poverty (and 78 percent due to an increase in the number of poor native-born citizens).

 

[fullflavormenthol]

Right now I don't have health insurance, and I honestly can't afford it. So if I got cancer tommorow...I am screwed. Thats okay, because me dying a horrible prolonged death because I can't afford treatment is a small price to pay to save people a small amount of money.

Yeah we have the best medical care in the world...too bad so many don't have access to it.