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Obama's Legacy

3point14 said:
What was the scandal?
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I genuinely have no idea because I searched the article for that word and did not find it.

Perhaps a scandal is anything that the poster takes issue with

- US involvement in Libya
- ACA
- EPA legislation
 
Argumemnon said:
Oh, he did and I was very happy to provide it to him. See, I'm slowly learning that having a discussion is pretty pointless. When's the last time you saw anyone change their minds about a topic around here? Not a small detail, mind you, but their actual position on the topic? Almost never, right? Right! So what's the point, eh? No, derision's the only path, now.
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Especially in politics, right? In addition there are a number of posters who simply wish to bait, provoke, and (when possible under the MA) insult other members holding opposite viewpoints; they don't really wish to discuss concepts or policy. In response I often either seek to deny them this pleasure by not rising to the bait at all, or the exact opposite: to provide just the response that they are seeking as a form of political comic theater. Sadly, if rattling someone else's cage is such an important part of their life, then why not indulge them? It is helping out the needy.
 
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Spindrift said:
He was born in Kenya and he's a muslim.
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FFS, when we can't all agree on the same reality and, somehow, that's okay then we're all just **********. we here in the UK are ducked by Corbyn and Cameron's lack of bollocks, you over there are ducked by the fact that the president elect has bollocks so large they sit above his eyeline and prevent him from actually perceiving anything so he just makes up ****. Which is fine, because, hey, define your own reality, rail against those that see the world otherwise and, above all never co-operate, never compromise, after all, they live in a different world to you.


There was a point to this*. I have forgotten what it was.





*Life.
 
The Don said:
I genuinely have no idea because I searched the article for that word and did not find it.

Perhaps a scandal is anything that the poster takes issue with

- US involvement in Libya
- ACA
- EPA legislation
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I'm not sure he actually read the article because it doesn't support what he says it says.
 
Spock Jenkins said:
As a conservative - these are the observations that I struggle with. I go back to Reagan and his question. "Are you better off today than you were four years ago?" Unequivocally, I can answer yes to that question. Also, as a person with a congenital heart defect - there are aspects of the ACA that I fully support. Other than my good fortune to work for a large company with a decent insurance plan, I could not get health insurance on my own if I needed to. I can't get life insurance as it is. If I were in a different career, or attempted to be self employed - I would have been forced to pay out of pocket for open heart surgery.

Like I said - my biggest issue is deficit spending and the ridiculous level of debt that we've incurred during the past 8 years. But I don't trust congressional republicans in this regard either.
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Well, Reagan's question was a campaign tactic. It's not actually relevant to the quality of governance. It was inevitable that the country would recover from a deep recession. In fact, I am confident it would have recovered more quickly and more robustly if Obama had done nothing. Virtually every one of his policies impeded growth.

As for his reform of health care, well, it was certainly in need of reform, but he screwed things up so badly that he has created more problems and made it more difficult to put things on the right track. In large measure, the damage is in opportunity cost. He put the country through a wrenching disruption, both politically and operationally, in order to achieve nothing of lasting value. Yes, there were winners and losers, and the winners see Obamacare as a success, and the losers mostly are told to shut the hell up, but, net net, it has done damage to aggregate utility. Obamacare has done nothing to encourage the production of more health care resources, and it has done nothing to discourage demand. The fundamental problems remain. All Obama has managed to do is shift some health care resources form upper income people to lower income people. It has been successful at redistribution and nothing more.
 
Obama's legacy is that he was attacked by ignorant morons his entire presidency, and not one of the laughable things they were afraid of actually happened.
 
sunmaster14 said:
It was inevitable that the country would recover from a deep recession. In fact, I am confident it would have recovered more quickly and more robustly if Obama had done nothing. Virtually every one of his policies impeded growth.
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One cannot argue against this reasoning.

Point: Things got better.
Counter-point: But they would have gotten even better if the president weren't so awful.

Point: Things got worse.
Counter-point: But they would have been even worse if the president wasn't such a great leader.

For most it boils down to the person they support can do no wrong and the person they oppose can do no right.
 
Spock Jenkins said:
One cannot argue against this reasoning.

Point: Things got better.
Counter-point: But they would have gotten even better if the president weren't so awful.

Point: Things got worse.
Counter-point: But they would have been even worse if the president wasn't such a great leader.

For most it boils down to the person they support can do no wrong and the person they oppose can do no right.
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Not at all. If you think Obama did something to make the economy better, then you should be able to point to that something. Did he just make it better through the sheer wonderfulness of his personality? Or can you point to specific policies that he pushed through Congress (or made happen by executive order) that helped the economy? I can't think of any. Even the stimulus package (which I would have supported in principle) was screwed up. It wasted the political capital to get a big stimulus package done by allowing the Democrats in Congress to festoon it with giveaways to Democratic constituencies. And most of the stimulus was too slow. Obama himself admitted after the fact that so-called shovel ready projects weren't actually shovel ready. This wasn't rocket surgery, by the way. Much of the reason it takes 3 years to spend money on building a new bridge is because of all of the government red tape involved. And the Obama administration thought the stimulus would be enough. It predicted unemployment would top out at 8% in 2009 and begin dropping in 2010. That didn't happen, in part because the stimulus was poorly designed and too small. So their confidence and their priorities were misplaced, and that hurt everybody.
 
Reheat said:
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He has reduced our military to a mere shadow of it's former self. Every time that has happened in modern history it has been followed by another freaking war.
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What?? If anything has "depleted" the U.S. military, it's the three trillion or so dollars that the previous administration squandered on two wars launched under false pretenses. Yet Obama has spent more on the military than Bush, despite sequestration (imposed by the Republicans). What specifically do you think has been "depleted?" (And just quoting Orange Man isn't enough.)
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._budget_is_still_one_of_the_biggest_ever.html
 
Bob001 said:
What?? If anything has "depleted" the U.S. military, it's the three trillion or so dollars that the previous administration squandered on two wars launched under false pretenses. Yet Obama has spent more on the military than Bush, despite sequestration (imposed by the Republicans). What specifically do you think has been "depleted?" (And just quoting Orange Man isn't enough.)
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._budget_is_still_one_of_the_biggest_ever.html
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Morale is terrible because he hasn't sent them on foolhardy missions.
 
sunmaster14 said:
Not at all. If you think Obama did something to make the economy better, then you should be able to point to that something.
....
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Well, I dunno. Cutting the unemployment rate in half, nearly tripling the stock market, saving the auto industry and its suppliers, and getting health insurance for 22+million people might count for something. And that's despite a Republican Congress that blocked him at every turn, including shutting down the government and threatening to default on U.S. debt.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhar...bama-be-americas-best-president/#ce4f9ee31bfd
http://newrepublic.com/article/119781/obamas-economic-record-strong-even-though-wages-are-stagnant
 
I think his longterm legacy and impact can be seen in 3 areas:

  • First African American president - I don't think this impact can be underestimated. This did not make a post racial America and there are still deep racial divisions but the mere fact he was elected shows its possible for a person of color to get elected.
  • Cuba - I think it is unlikely the Republicans will undo this because I think in private, many probably agree it is long overdue. I would expect the relationship to continue and come more in line with other stable authoritarian regimes who we currently have normalized relationships.
  • Health Care - Even assuming that Republicans repeal the ACA I think the conversation has still shifted. The Republicans are now saying that they want to maintain certain pieces of this. The fact that they are talking about repeal and replace instead of simply repeal indicates a shift from 2007. Before the ACA, I think it would be difficult to get Republicans to agree to pass any legislation that protects individuals with pre-existing conditions.

I don't think his actions on environmental protections or foreign policy outside of Cuba will have a lasting. It is too early to tell about the economy. If the economy tanks betwen 2019-2021, the Republicans will have a hard time defending there position and the economic growth will look good under Obama. If the economy grows at a much faster rate in the next 4 years, then Trump and the Republicans will look great.
 
Reheat said:
That's perhaps the my largest personal complaint against him. He "screwed the pooch" royally primarily with the "leading from behind" insane philosophy. Our allies don't trust and our enemies don't fear us. He has reduced our military to a mere shadow of it's former self. Every time that has happened in modern history it has been followed by another freaking war. He must be totally ignorant of history or else he wanted to reduce us to the dustbin of history much like the once British Empire. No, I don't agree with colonization, but I do support world stability and peace. It is now worse than when he took office.
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I don't believe any of that.

The US military is still the far largest in the world in terms of both manpower and spending. All measures of "world peace" show fewer wars and deaths than at any other time in history. Not one single ally has abandoned us. Every "fact" you cite is wrong. It's not just a matter of opinion, it's actually wrong.
 
Bob001 said:
Well, I dunno. Cutting the unemployment rate in half, nearly tripling the stock market, saving the auto industry and its suppliers, and getting health insurance for 22+million people might count for something.
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Except for Obamacare, none of those things were policies. They're simply things that happened, for which he took credit. He certainly didn't "save" the auto industry. Do you think we wouldn't have car companies anymore if he hadn't bailed out union pensions at the expense of bondholders? Once again, this is the kind of shallow analysis that I've come to expect from Obama supporters.

And that's despite a Republican Congress that blocked him at every turn, including shutting down the government and threatening to default on U.S. debt.
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The Republican congress blocked policies they disagreed with. Things probably would have been worse if they hadn't blocked those policies. Ending the repeated extension of long-term unemployment benefits probably contributed more to the drop in unemployment than virtually anything Obama did.
 
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