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Obama's Legacy

Argumemnon said:
Why would he bother, when he has feelings?
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What worries me in these situations is that it's very obvious to me that Reheat is creating his own narrative based on 'facts' that are easily identified as either based on very dodgy information or they're outright lies. It's a trivial thing to find out if one invests a little energy and time and (and this is the important bit) if one starts out with at least some sense that one might be wrong.

What worries me is that I believe that Reheat believes that he's checked all the facts, that his information is sound. I just really, really hope that I have more of an understanding of when I'm deeply wrong than he does.


ETA - Reheat, you really are wrong - you can give the lie to this statement by providing evidence that the US military has been 'gutted' and the the US military needs to be bigger than the next seven combined. Oh, and that the US requires the two larges air forces in the world too.
 
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Reheat said:
He has reduced our military to a mere shadow of it's former self.
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Do you have any evidence for that*?

For example, comparing state of military before Obama and after 8 years of Obama and showing (with sources and links, obviously) dramatic reduction in budget, personnel or equipment would be good evidence that Obama "reduced our military to a mere shadow of it's former self".

I wonder where you read this claim that now you mindlessly parrot here. Do you really thought you wouldn't be challenged on it here?

* No, Deep Conviction I Am Right does not count.
 
3point14 said:
What worries me in these situations is that it's very obvious to me that Reheat is creating his own narrative based on 'facts' that are easily identified as either based on very dodgy information or they're outright lies. It's a trivial thing to find out if one invests a little energy and time and (and this is the important bit) if one starts out with at least some sense that one might be wrong.

What worries me is that I believe that Reheat believes that he's checked all the facts, that his information is sound. I just really, really hope that I have more of an understanding of when I'm deeply wrong than he does.
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Oh, it's a worrying trend, but think about how liberating it is! No need to analyse or compromise or consider the opposing views. Just decide on what the truth is and fit reality to that view. No fuss, no effort. It's really fun!

The amusing thing is, Reheat would throw a fit against truthers if (and when) they pulled the same sort of thing. Amazing how one person can be objective and unbiased about one thing, and then lose their **** entirely on another topic that hits closer to home, eh?
 
Obama's legacy?

Racial equality. Health care for as many people as possible. Work to make cops work for the people.

Among many other things. Since the GOP is has taken a stand against all of this, we will see what happens.
 
Loss Leader said:
I believe Obama was instrumental in ending the housing/banking crises.
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I think he was a better president than I ever expected and his legacy will be better than many want it to be. However, I don't agree that he was instrumental here at all. The mere discovery of the issue made the end of the housing / banking crises inevitable. When a shaky foundation is about to collapse or does collapse, people get to work fixing it. This would have happened regardless of who took office during that 8 year window. There wasn't anything special that Obama did here.

The pending crises was all built up during the Clinton and Bush years and stemmed from the home ownership mandate. Everyone not only has a right to own a home, but they must own a home. Even if they can't afford it! And we did everything we could during those years to shuffle risk around and pretend it didn't exist.

A true visionary would have been one who spoke up in the 1990's and said this is a bad idea. People who can't afford a home probably should save up their money and improve their earning potential, then buy one. But that would stifle growth.

For the perceived "bad" part of his legacy - a lot of our most conservative commentators are lamenting the number of people "out of the workforce" to show that unemployment being so low is a mirage. However they are ignoring an aging population and a return to the idea that a stay-at-home parent can be good for the kids. The fact that more people can retire or choose to stay home for their families is not a bad thing in my mind.

They also say, "He's the only president who never once saw the economy grow at a rate higher than 3% during any year of his term!". To me - that's a big, "So what?" I'd take steady 2% growth over volatile growth all day long.

My biggest complaint is debt / deficit and trade imbalance. So far I like seeing Trump jump on some of this stuff trying to renegotiate with government contractors who see government work as a chance to screw those with deep pockets. However, I question whether this is a bit too micro for the president, who should be focusing on the macro.

I guess he wouldn't need to if our representatives in congress were more responsible. But getting big contracts for their constituents is their job, which is part of why "congress" has a terribly low approval rating, but each member of congress keeps getting re-elected. My representative is great. Yours is horrible.
 
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Argumemnon said:
Oh, it's a worrying trend, but think about how liberating it is! No need to analyse or compromise or consider the opposing views. Just decide on what the truth is and fit reality to that view. No fuss, no effort. It's really fun!

The amusing thing is, Reheat would throw a fit against truthers if (and when) they pulled the same sort of thing. Amazing how one person can be objective and unbiased about one thing, and then lose their **** entirely on another topic that hits closer to home, eh?
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The closer to home it is, the more it impacts emotionally and the less well we think.

One of the reasons I find US politics more interesting than UK politics is because I can be more detached, it's easier to see through ******** when one isn't wedded to either side.
 
Guys, don't waste your breath. Any disagreement with the OP is propaganda, I read that in the OP. It's watertight.
 
Spock Jenkins said:
I think he was a better president than I ever expected and his legacy will be better than many want it to be. However, I don't agree that he was instrumental here at all. The mere discovery of the issue made the end of the housing / banking crises inevitable. When a shaky foundation is about to collapse or does collapse, people get to work fixing it. This would have happened regardless of who took office during that 8 year window. There wasn't anything special that Obama did here.

The pending crises was all built up during the Clinton and Bush years and stemmed from the home ownership mandate. Everyone not only has a right to own a home, but they must own a home. Even if they can't afford it! And we did everything we could during those years to shuffle risk around and pretend it didn't exist.

A true visionary would have been one who spoke up in the 1990's and said this is a bad idea. People who can't afford a home probably should save up their money and improve their earning potential, then buy one. But that would stifle growth.

For the perceived "bad" part of his legacy - a lot of our most conservative commentators are lamenting the number of people "out of the workforce" to show that unemployment being so low is a mirage. However they are ignoring an aging population and a return to the idea that a stay-at-home parent can be good for the kids. The fact that more people can retire or choose to stay home for their families is not a bad thing in my mind.

They also say, "He's the only president who never once saw the economy grow at a rate higher than 3% during any year of his term!". To me - that's a big, "So what?" I'd take steady 2% growth over volatile growth all day long.

My biggest complaint is debt / deficit and trade imbalance. So far I like seeing Trump jump on some of this stuff trying to renegotiate with government contractors who see government work as a change to screw those with deep pockets. However, I question whether this is a bit too micro for the president, who should be focusing on the macro.

I guess he wouldn't need to if our representatives in congress were more responsible. But getting big contracts for their constituents is their job, which is part of why "congress" has a terribly low approval rating, but each member of congress keeps getting re-elected. My representative is great. Yours is horrible.
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That's a very reasonable and thoughtful post, which is becoming something of a rarity around here. Still, though, you didn't support your opinion that Obama turned out to be a better President than you thought he would be. I had pretty low expectations to begin with, and he fell way short of them. In my opinion, he was only good in that he was so bad that he has diminished the political power of the Democratic Party (at least in the short-term).

What good did Obama do? I can't really think of anything on the foreign policy stage except unfreezing relations with Cuba (which was long overdue) and perhaps making some progress on free trade agreements (although, even here, I think he fell short of what the average President would have done). On domestic policy, I think virtually everything he did was harmful.
 
How about the fact that he was a president with no real scandal in 8 years?
I think we have to go back a century to find someone more upstanding.
 
sunmaster14 said:
That's a very reasonable and thoughtful post, which is becoming something of a rarity around here. Still, though, you didn't support your opinion that Obama turned out to be a better President than you thought he would be.
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You want him to... support his opinion that... his opinion turned out different than he initially... opined?

How would he go around to proving this to you? What a strange comment.
 
Reheat said:
This is an excellent analysis of Obama's legacy in spite of the spin from his eloquent mouth. The only legacy he can claim is that he was the first Black President. Anything further than that is pure political spin. Some of the unilateral actions he claims will be undone in the coming weeks and months leaving little memory of his occupancy of the "house that slaves built".

I fully expect a barrage of whiny half baked protests mostly of the "shoot the messenger" type. I will enjoy the avalanche of half baked rebuttals in puking disgust while reading afterwards as I will be mostly engaged in watching the inauguration of the new "Sheriff in town". Therefore I will only participate in the thread as time permits, perhaps during commercial breaks, if any. I eagerly await the gangbang. :D

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...oversial-legacy-what-obama-leaves-behind.html
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You make participation in this thread very attractive! I hope you find enough of what you are looking for to give you some pleasure.
 
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sunmaster14 said:
On domestic policy, I think virtually everything he did was harmful.
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As a conservative - these are the observations that I struggle with. I go back to Reagan and his question. "Are you better off today than you were four years ago?" Unequivocally, I can answer yes to that question. Also, as a person with a congenital heart defect - there are aspects of the ACA that I fully support. Other than my good fortune to work for a large company with a decent insurance plan, I could not get health insurance on my own if I needed to. I can't get life insurance as it is. If I were in a different career, or attempted to be self employed - I would have been forced to pay out of pocket for open heart surgery.

Like I said - my biggest issue is deficit spending and the ridiculous level of debt that we've incurred during the past 8 years. But I don't trust congressional republicans in this regard either.
 
Giordano said:
You make participation in this thread very attractive! I hope you find enough of what you are looking for to give you some pleasure.
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Oh, he did and I was very happy to provide it to him. See, I'm slowly learning that having a discussion is pretty pointless. When's the last time you saw anyone change their minds about a topic around here? Not a small detail, mind you, but their actual position on the topic? Almost never, right? Right! So what's the point, eh? No, derision's the only path, now.
 
Obama was the worst president ever in the history of presidents because he had a (D) next to his name. That's not being hyper partisan at all!
 
The Great Zaganza said:
How about the fact that he was a president with no real scandal in 8 years?
I think we have to go back a century to find someone more upstanding.
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The link in the OP shows otherwise. In fact, it proves it is a lie. Perhaps you either need to read or re-read, otherwise your post is total delusional.
 
U6 unemployment doubled under George W Bush going from 7.3% to 14.2%.
Under Obama it went from 14.2% to 9.2%

I didn't agree with everything he did but he was a great president.
 
Reheat said:
The link in the OP shows otherwise. In fact, it proves it is a lie. Perhaps you either need to read or re-read, otherwise your post is total delusional.
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Is it more delusional than the military now being a mere shadow of itself?
 
Argumemnon said:
Oh, he did and I was very happy to provide it to him. See, I'm slowly learning that having a discussion is pretty pointless. When's the last time you saw anyone change their minds about a topic around here? Not a small detail, mind you, but their actual position on the topic? Almost never, right? Right! So what's the point, eh? No, derision's the only path, now.
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I think his name was Randfan.
 
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