Obama mulls reaching out to moderate Taliban

[linusrichard]

So because they may be against Al Qaeda they are moderates? The Taliban, by definition, are the most extreme Isalmists on earth.

Of course not. The Taliban are some of the most extreme Islamists on earth, but not by definition. This might seem like a pedantic point, but it gets to the source of your confusion. The Taliban are a political party. If you think the Taliban are defined by extremism, then yes, "moderate Taliban" looks like a contradiction in terms. But if you recognize that the Taliban are only described by extremism, you can see that it is at least theoretically possible that there might be (relatively) moderate elements within the Taliban. I'm not saying those moderate elements exist, but it's not as impossible as you suggest. I submit that Barack Obama has access to much better information on the question than you or I do. If they do exist, I don't see anything wrong with playing them against the more extreme elements of the Taliban. Do you? I mean - getting past the question of whether "moderate Taliban" can exist and does exist - if they do exist, do you see anything wrong with using them against the "extreme Taliban"?

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

Well, look at how well negotiating with "moderate" Taliban factions has worked for Pakistan in the Swat valley!

Sounds like the sort of folks we shouldn't be talking to in Afghanistan then. Your point?

 

[WildCat]

Sounds like the sort of folks we shouldn't be talking to in Afghanistan then. Your point?

The Taliban (and the Afghan tribes in general) have a history of negotiating in bad faith. Or using cease-fires solely to consolidate their positions.

As the saying goes "you can rent an Afghani, but you can't buy one".

 

[Cicero]

Well, perhaps the nearest American analogy is the KKK. Yes, they're revolting, but if they confine their effort to free speech and the ballot box, then they are, at least provisionally, not opposing democracy. Maybe they would like to impose what they believe to be God's law by, for example, executing gay people for breaking a rule in Leviticus, but so long as they are prepared to advance this goal through democratic rather than violent means, then we put up with them.

This is a fairly loose analogy, so please don't get this thread bogged down in the details of the differences between the two groups.

Are you cereal? 70% of California's African Americans, 49% Asians, and 53% Latinos voted for Prop 8. They exercised their democratic rights, yet blacks were targeted by gay activists who must have been auditioning for the KKK role in the remake of "Birth of A Nation."


http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do;jsessionid=76D16E7AC7C2162051F62609D6F5E019?diaryId=8077

 

[Alt+F4]

What is a "moderate"Taliban element?

They are the ones that only gouge out the eyes of girls who learn to read as opposed to the "extreme" Taliban who moved immediately to stoning.

 

[Pardalis]

Negotiating with the Taliban as a whole wouldn't work of course, but there has been negotiations with factions and tribal leaders ever since the invasion, like here that have given good results. Tribal leaders don't necessarily agree with the Taliban, they've joined them mostly out of opportunism and maybe sometimes necessity, and when you remove the need or appeal to affiliate with them, then they could move to our side. If you pull out of the Taliban enough tribal leaders, then the Taliban will break appart.

There's also Viagra, as a means to make friends...

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

The Taliban (and the Afghan tribes in general) have a history of negotiating in bad faith. Or using cease-fires solely to consolidate their positions.

Like the Sunni insurgents in Iraq that we talked to? Not to be too flippant, but my point is there are people we can talk to and there are people we cannot. Let's talk to those we can - even if it doesn't work out, the talking can't hurt too much - and let's bomb the crap out of those we cannot.

As the saying goes "you can rent an Afghani, but you can't buy one".

Really? You have some etymology for that saying or is it something coined for the War On Terror^TM? To me it sounds far to reminiscent of "not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims", especially ironic in light of the recent terror attack in Northern Ireland.

But that's just me letting reality get in the way of platitudes and sound bites...

 

[Dr Adequate]

Are you cereal? 70% of California's African Americans, 49% Asians, and 53% Latinos voted for Prop 8. They exercised their democratic rights, yet blacks were targeted by gay activists who must have been auditioning for the KKK role in the remake of "Birth of A Nation."


http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do;jsessionid=76D16E7AC7C2162051F62609D6F5E019?diaryId=8077

Uh ... am I wrong in thinking that certain elements of the KKK would like to apply, let us say, biblical values, to gay people?

If you are not denying that, then I am at a loss to know what you are talking about, or how it relates to my point in any way, or whether you might be off your head.

 

[Toke]

So because they may be against Al Qaeda they are moderates? The Taliban, by definition, are the most extreme Isalmists on earth. Show me a "moderate" Talibani and it will be a headless corpse.

What about the ones invited to texas to discus pipelines?
It is perfectly possible to make deals with people you don´t agree with.

Besides the situation in afganistan does not leave that many other options.

 

[jj]

They are Afghani that were schooled in Pakistani Madrases. Maybe you can define a "moderate" Talibani. No one else seems to want to try.

I didn't use the term "moderate" taliban. Please, ask someone else to solve your problems for you this time.

Oh, and SOME of them are Afghani.

 

[jj]

Uh ... am I wrong in thinking that certain elements of the KKK would like to apply, let us say, biblical values, to gay people?

If you are not denying that, then I am at a loss to know what you are talking about, or how it relates to my point in any way, or whether you might be off your head.

It's because everything's back to the idea that one of your correspondents there must have his nose into everyone's bedrooms and kitchens, and tell everyone who to touch and where.

Much like the Taliban or KKK, in fact, despite the illicit use of the KKK moniker for people who are opposed to discrimination.

It's part of the new, hardline right-wing nutter squad, it's simple, lie as much as possible, be as divisive as possible, and do one's best to incite revolution.

That's what they are really on about at this point, you know. I'm not sure if it's the non-whiteness of the president, or the fact that their baby Bush failed to find a successor to continue the push to second world status, or what...

 

[gumboot]

Perhaps it's worth remembering who the Taliban are, and who they are not. "Taliban" means students, and the actual Taliban are students of Pakistani Deobandi Madrassahs who rallied the Afghani people against the violent and cruel Mujahideen warlords who seized Afghanistan after defeating the Soviets.

The Taliban are Muslim Fundamentalists, and cannot be construed as "moderate" by any standard. However, as happens, many non-Taliban have at various times aligned themselves with the Taliban, for various reasons.

Most people make the mistake of collectively calling the Taliban and their allies/supporters by the same label.

I would imagine that the "moderate Taliban" are not Taliban at all, but non-Taliban currently aligned with or supporting the Taliban. These people are probably aligned out of a sense of opportunity or survival, and can be pretty easily turned to our side by convincing them that the ISAF and the Afghani government offers a better chance of opportunity and survival.

Pretty much what Pardalis said.

 

[WildCat]

Really? You have some etymology for that saying or is it something coined for the War On Terror^TM? To me it sounds far to reminiscent of "not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims", especially ironic in light of the recent terror attack in Northern Ireland.

But that's just me letting reality get in the way of platitudes and sound bites...

Actually I first heard that saying back when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. You can pay off tribal leaders and they will fight for you for a while. Until someone else pays them to fight against you. Did you follow that war? There was enough switching of sides to make you dizzy.

 

[Cicero]

Uh ... am I wrong in thinking that certain elements of the KKK would like to apply, let us say, biblical values, to gay people?

If you are not denying that, then I am at a loss to know what you are talking about, or how it relates to my point in any way, or whether you might be off your head.

What values did the racial epithet spouting gay activists apply to the minorities that voted for Prop 8? The gays that emulate the KKK racist beliefs are not sufficiently Klanish because they lack the Christianity component?

Of course, you believe that calling a person an Uncle Tom is not a racist remark. Is the location of your head not known for sunlight?

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

Actually I first heard that saying back when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. You can pay off tribal leaders and they will fight for you for a while. Until someone else pays them to fight against you.

Must have slid under my radar at the time and I was a big Mujahadeen fan...

Did you follow that war? There was enough switching of sides to make you dizzy.

...yes, primarily through the pages of Soldier of Fortune magazine. Unfortunately it concentrated on old warriors taking out BMPs with Enfields, and how to take down Hinds with Stingers.

 

[Dr Adequate]

What values did the racial epithet spouting gay activists apply to the minorities that voted for Prop 8? The gays that emulate the KKK racist beliefs are not sufficiently Klanish because they lack the Christianity component?

Of course, you believe that calling a person an Uncle Tom is not a racist remark. Is the location of your head not known for sunlight?

You appear to be rambling about something of great interest to you, but of no relevance to my post, or, quite possibly, anything else.

 

[WildCat]

Must have slid under my radar at the time and I was a big Mujahadeen fan...

Just to show I didn't make it up:

There are plenty of precedents for this in Afghanistan - and in fact the Soviet army had some success with this tactic in the 1980s - but Gen Petraeus will need to remember the old frontier saying that you can rent an Afghan but not buy him.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7619769.stm

Must have been coined by the British back when they occupied the place.

 

[Allen773]

You appear to be rambling about something of great interest to you, but of no relevance to my post, or, quite possibly, anything else.

Cicero is a right-wing hack. Did you expect otherwise?