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Obama lied about Gruber, What else is new?

Lolz! No.

I do believe that you were hoisted by your own petard.:D
Actually you are. The usages of the two are entirely different. One is to state an opinion and the other is to make an argument based solely on the opinion.

Read it again. Lolz.
 
Actually you are. The usages of the two are entirely different. One is to state an opinion and the other is to make an argument based solely on the opinion.

Read it again. Lolz.

My eyes literally rolled when I read that. :rolleyes:

Hee hee!
 
I do not believe that anyone is claiming that Obama lied about "the Invasion."

Obama lied about his being the most transparent administration in history. In fact, I believe that his is the least transparent administration in history.

And I believe I'm the King of France. My belief doesn't make it anymore true.

Michael

If you have the facts go with the facts. If you don't then go with your belief. Works for theists.

You mean, the context on this page?:rolleyes:

Context provided! [SNIP]
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Again, it's simply an acceptance of reality. We've never had a perfect president. Before you consider that a straw man, what is the alternative? Someone who is imperfect, human, capable of deception, etc., etc..
False dichotomy. Your model accepts only two alternatives, neither of which is relevant. The third alternative (a morally balanced president) is intentionally omitted.


Calling it war doesn't make it good for the human species. It certainly doesn't make it moral. The human race has probably never found a more pernicious fallacy.
There was a time when war was good for the human species, but if that ship hadn't sailed before the birth of William T. Sherman it surely did shortly afterwards.

I believe Obama has lied. He's human. I believe Obama has had to face moral dilemma where he was forced to choose the lesser of two evils. Such is the basis of evil. Something I've been studying from an academic perspective this past year.
This, like your original statement, smacks of moral relativism. You are stating, in effect, that since all presidents "lie" and "kill civilians" then any act of lying and killing civilians is therefore justified.
Example:
Leader1: Madam Prime Minister, you look lovely today.
Truth: She's 50 pounds over weight, cross eyed, balding and buck toothed.

Leader 2: The greatest threat to our way of life are the Bogomils. They should be eliminated.
Truth: The Bogomils reject my belief system and represent a threat to my personal authority. I need to eliminate them.

Both are lies, therefore the second is no different from the first.

You may not have meant it that way, but that is the position of a fanatic.
 
Wait, are people claiming that Obama lied about the Iraq invasion? If so that is pure applesauce.

Although I will cheerfully amend my statement as follows, to wit:

"Obama lied about his being the most transparent administration in history. In fact, his is the least transparent administration in history."

Thanks for your comment.

I'd be curious how you draw that conclusion.

Are you familiar enough with say, the Polk administration to be able to compare? The Taft or Either Adams administration?
 
False dichotomy. Your model accepts only two alternatives, neither of which is relevant. The third alternative (a morally balanced president) is intentionally omitted.
This is wrong, and it is a straw man. My argument is an exclusive disjunction. A morally balanced president is in the set of "not perfect" president. One who makes mistakes.

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False dichotomy. Your model accepts only two alternatives, neither of which is relevant. The third alternative (a morally balanced president) is intentionally omitted.



There was a time when war was good for the human species, but if that ship hadn't sailed before the birth of William T. Sherman it surely did shortly afterwards.


This, like your original statement, smacks of moral relativism. You are stating, in effect, that since all presidents "lie" and "kill civilians" then any act of lying and killing civilians is therefore justified.
Example:
Leader1: Madam Prime Minister, you look lovely today.
Truth: She's 50 pounds over weight, cross eyed, balding and buck toothed.

Leader 2: The greatest threat to our way of life are the Bogomils. They should be eliminated.
Truth: The Bogomils reject my belief system and represent a threat to my personal authority. I need to eliminate them.

Both are lies, therefore the second is no different from the first.

You may not have meant it that way, but that is the position of a fanatic.

Excellent post. Kudos!
 
So, your claim is as follows; Obama said that it is a false choice to presume that a president must at times face choices with only two options?

Source please?

No, he said that it was a false choice to say that we have to compromise our values and our freedoms to have more security.

Evidently, he was wrong. Or perhaps he was lying.

 
No, he said that it was a false choice to say that we have to compromise our values and our freedoms to have more security.
Hang on. This has nothing to do with the discussion. Let me make it clear.

Presidents like Obama are at time faced with choosing between the lesser of two evils.

Now, either that proposition is true or it is not. Anything else is just a straw man of my position.
 
So, your claim is as follows; Obama said that it is a false choice to presume that a president must at times face choices with only two options?

No, he said...
THAT'S the problem. I'm trying to point out to you that while this IS what he said. It's NOT what I said. "I believe Obama has had to face moral dilemma where he was forced to choose the lesser of two evils." That is either a true proposition or it is not. I said nothing about giving up freedom for safety. Nothing. Nada. Zip.

RF: I believe A.
CG: Obama said Not A
RF: Obama said Not A?
SM: No, Obama said X.
RF: X is not relevant to A.
 
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THAT'S the problem. I'm trying to point out to you that while this IS what he said. It's NOT what I said. "I believe Obama has had to face moral dilemma where he was forced to choose the lesser of two evils." That is either a true proposition or it is not. I said nothing about giving up freedom for safety. Nothing. Nada. Zip.

RF: I believe A.
CG: Obama said Not A
RF: Obama said Not A?
SM: No, Obama said X.
RF: X is not relevant to A.

SM: X has to be relevant to A.

You implied that Obama has acted immorally, presumably to protect the nation's security. Do you question that immoral acts contradict our principles and values? If so, why did Obama choose one of two false choices, i.e. between compromising our values and compromising our security? Was it because he was lying when he claimed that this was a false choice? You seem to be implying that it was not a false choice.
 
You implied that Obama has acted immorally, presumably to protect the nation's security.
No. That's a straw man.

Presidents like Obama are at time faced with choosing between the lesser of two evils.

That is either a true proposition or it is not. What do you think? We aren't going to be able to advance the discussion by you putting words in my mouth (straw men) and ignoring my question.
 
Was FDR and then Johnson faced with choosing between the lesser of two evils when they considered dropping the bomb?
 
No. That's a straw man.

Presidents like Obama are at time faced with choosing between the lesser of two evils.

That is either a true proposition or it is not. What do you think? We aren't going to be able to advance the discussion by you putting words in my mouth (straw men) and ignoring my question.

You don't consider the drone strikes to be immoral? I actually do. I think they kill too many innocent civilians, and they are not necessary for our security. Furthermore, I have low confidence that the targets of the drone strikes are even close to being imminent threats. Thus, it is not just immoral but illegal to kill them off the battlefield.
 

Are presidents forced to make decisions such that they must choose between one of two bad options?

Take D-Day, Normandie, what where Eisenhower's options just prior to making his decision?
 
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Was FDR and then Johnson faced with choosing between the lesser of two evils when they considered dropping the bomb?

Do you mean Truman? I do not agree with the use of the A-bomb on civilian populations in August 1945. I think there was a third way, which was a convincing demonstration of its effectiveness. I also think it was unnecessary to demand unconditional surrender. If we had guaranteed the emperor would be allowed to remain, although as a figurehead (something which we ended up doing anyway), Japan might have surrendered. We're going pretty far off-topic though.
 
Are presidents forced to make decisions such that they must choose between one of two bad options?

Take D-Day, Normandie, what where Eisenhower's options just prior to making his decision?

Well, I don't consider a real choice between two bad options to be immoral. Like the switch operator who must choose which of two groups of people will die because of a runaway train, a President who is faced with only options in which innocent people die is not necessarily committing an immoral act by choosing one of the options.
 

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