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Obama is a thin-skinned narcissist

That depends. Is the attack against a (R) or a (D)? If a (D), then all appeals must be accepted. That's critical thinking. Or so It's been said on here by those with "highly knowledgeable and experienced critical thinkers".

I honestly can't tell if you're Poe'ing or not.

Critical thinking is not dependent political alliance and never has been. Zig and sunmaster14 have been relying heavily on logical fallacies in this thread. Whether or not you agree with them that Obama is a TSN, we should all be able to agree that logical fallacies should be challenged because they do not make a sound argument.
 
I honestly can't tell if you're Poe'ing or not.

Critical thinking is not dependent political alliance and never has been. Zig and sunmaster14 have been relying heavily on logical fallacies in this thread. Whether or not you agree with them that Obama is a TSN, we should all be able to agree that logical fallacies should be challenged because they do not make a sound argument.

I'm sorry, what logical fallacy am I relying on? Or Zig for that matter?

Also, why can't you tell that Shalamar is on your side and he's being sarcastic? Is your reading comprehension really that bad?
 
I'm sorry, what logical fallacy am I relying on? Or Zig for that matter?
You: Cherry-picking, confirmation bias, and appeal to inappropriate authority. And that has just been the last few pages.
Zig: Special pleading, nearly the entire thread.

Also, why can't you tell that Shalamar is on your side and he's being sarcastic? Is your reading comprehension really that bad?
The entire point of Poe's Law is that, at a certain point, an extreme view point becomes indistinguishable from satire if there is no overt indication that a post is meant to be satirical.

Shalamar's post lacks depicts an extreme point of view, one you and Zig have both put forward (without evidence). I haven't kept track of Shalamar's posts well enough to remember if that fits with his/her previous posts. (Sorry, Shalamar.) what you are seeing is not a lack of reading comprehension, but intellectual honesty and not making unnecessary assumptions.
 
You: Cherry-picking, confirmation bias, and appeal to inappropriate authority. And that has just been the last few pages.
Zig: Special pleading, nearly the entire thread.

Where is the cherry picking or confirmation bias? Did I send you to a site that had evidence both for and against Obama being a narcissist, and I only referenced the "for" evidence? No. Then where is the cherry-picking? Where is the evidence that Obama's not a narcissist that I ignored? Also, keep in mind that when somebody is asked for evidence of a claim, calling that evidence cherry-picking is a logical fallacy in itself. Cherry-picked evidence is still evidence. It might be outweighed by the evidence which has been neglected, but it is still evidence.

Likewise, your claim that I am appealing to an inappropriate authority, or any authority for that matter, is completely off-base. I have pointed only to an argument that somebody else has laid out. I have not claimed anything about that person's credentials. For all you know, that person is me. It might be, by the way. ;)

It seems that you are in fact guilty of falsely claiming logical fallacies where none exist. Perhaps there is a name for that type of fallacious argument.

The entire point of Poe's Law is that, at a certain point, an extreme view point becomes indistinguishable from satire if there is no overt indication that a post is meant to be satirical.

Whether Poe's Law is really a law or not (it really isn't), Shalamar's sarcasm was hardly difficult to see. I doubt if anybody else was confused by it.
 
I honestly can't tell if you're Poe'ing or not.

Critical thinking is not dependent political alliance and never has been. Zig and sunmaster14 have been relying heavily on logical fallacies in this thread. Whether or not you agree with them that Obama is a TSN, we should all be able to agree that logical fallacies should be challenged because they do not make a sound argument.

He presented a satirical post. It does, however, accurately describe the attitude of the self-described "highly knowledgeable and experienced critical thinkers" in the thread that have "proven" that Obama is a thin-skinned narcissist.
 
He presented a satirical post. It does, however, accurately describe the attitude of the self-described "highly knowledgeable and experienced critical thinkers" in the thread that have "proven" that Obama is a thin-skinned narcissist.

It's interesting (read dishonest) that you put the word "proven" in quotes. I have not used that word in this thread, and Zig only used it once with a "not" preceding it. Why do you imply that we claimed to have proven something?
 
It's interesting (read dishonest) that you put the word "proven" in quotes. I have not used that word in this thread, and Zig only used it once with a "not" preceding it. Why do you imply that we claimed to have proven something?

I have secret evidence that shows you both have said you've "proven" that Obama is a thin-skinned narcissist.
 
Where is the cherry picking or confirmation bias? Did I send you to a site that had evidence both for and against Obama being a narcissist, and I only referenced the "for" evidence? No. Then where is the cherry-picking? Where is the evidence that Obama's not a narcissist that I ignored? Also, keep in mind that when somebody is asked for evidence of a claim, calling that evidence cherry-picking is a logical fallacy in itself. Cherry-picked evidence is still evidence. It might be outweighed by the evidence which has been neglected, but it is still evidence.
It is odd to watch a "highly knowledgeable and experienced critical thinker" defend the use of a logical fallacy. Clearly, you know that cherry-picking is focusing on the hits and ignoring the misses, but to declare that it isn't a logical fallacy because there are any hits at all seems to have missed the point entirely.

Likewise, your claim that I am appealing to an inappropriate authority, or any authority for that matter, is completely off-base. I have pointed only to an argument that somebody else has laid out. I have not claimed anything about that person's credentials.
No, but the source you cited as a comprehensive analysis did.
Psychologists including Israeli psychologist Dr. Sam Vaknin have explained their analysis as to why Obama has severe NPD, a self-view as a Messiah, a false personality “mask” and a hidden true nature we rarely see (except for the outbursts above, for example). Dr. Vaknin also analyzes the possible catastrophic risks when Obama may not be able to let go of his Messiah delusion despite the reality of losing an election, having to step down from power, or some other failure or limitation.
As has been shown, Vaknin may have a doctorate, he may be Israeli, but he is no psychologist and actual psychologist is referenced in the entire piece, that I could see. This is a clear appeal to authority.

Now, if you want to present Vaknin's explanation as your own, then the burden is on you to support that claim with sources. Referencing Vaknin's video as a source or evidence is, once again, an appeal to (false) authority.

It seems that you are in fact guilty of falsely claiming logical fallacies where none exist. Perhaps there is a name for that type of fallacious argument.
Nope, I've justified them all, but feel free to point out where I haven't and I'll fill in the gaps.

And, while we're reviewing misunderstandings of various terms, you seem to be missing a critical aspect of the Dunning-Kruger effect. Namely, that it applies in cases of self-assessed superior ability that are not supported by demonstrated ability.

For example, if one were to describe themselves as a "highly knowledgeable and experienced critical thinker" and yet fail to recognize that relying on common sense is a logical fallacy, that would be a valid Dunning-Kruger situation.

If, on the other hand, one were to decide that someone else "thinks they're so smart, but they're not", that is not a valid Dunning-Kruger situation. The person has to actually declare, or self-assess, that they have superior ability.
 
It is odd to watch a "highly knowledgeable and experienced critical thinker" defend the use of a logical fallacy. Clearly, you know that cherry-picking is focusing on the hits and ignoring the misses, but to declare that it isn't a logical fallacy because there are any hits at all seems to have missed the point entirely.

What misses? Where is the evidence that Obama is not a narcissist that I ignored? I think if you're going to accuse me of cherry picking, then you have the burden of showing me the cherries I left on the tree.

No, but the source you cited as a comprehensive analysis did.
​
As has been shown, Vaknin may have a doctorate, he may be Israeli, but he is no psychologist and actual psychologist is referenced in the entire piece, that I could see. This is a clear appeal to authority.

I cited that web page as a source of links and references. I even explained that if only 20% of the links were legitimate, the compilation was pretty damning.

As for Vaknin, I hadn't claimed this before, but it does in fact seem he has considerable expertise in psychology. He has written many books about narcissism, and has learned a lot from introspection because he claims to have suffered from narcissism himself. I don't think that earning a meaningless degree because you passed a handful of meaningless courses is particularly important to becoming knowledgeable about a topic. Vaknin has clearly devoted many decades to the study of narcissism and seems credible to me. His arguments about personal pronoun word density makes a lot of sense, as well as his argument about having a rather amorphous background filled with non-achievements.

Now, if you want to present Vaknin's explanation as your own, then the burden is on you to support that claim with sources. Referencing Vaknin's video as a source or evidence is, once again, an appeal to (false) authority.

Look, this isn't a mathematical proof. Consider Vaknin's arguments to be my own. I have listened to them, and I agree with them, to the extent I understand what a narcissist is. You wanted evidence, and some of the evidence consists of the observations that Vaknin has made. I'm really not sure what else you could expect. Obama presumably hasn't sat for any detailed psychological testing, or, if he has, I certainly wouldn't have access to it.

Nope, I've justified them all, but feel free to point out where I haven't and I'll fill in the gaps.

No, your style of argumentation is to stand back and slander other people's arguments with labels that you only vaguely understand. I've yet to see something interesting from you.

And, while we're reviewing misunderstandings of various terms, you seem to be missing a critical aspect of the Dunning-Kruger effect. Namely, that it applies in cases of self-assessed superior ability that are not supported by demonstrated ability.

For example, if one were to describe themselves as a "highly knowledgeable and experienced critical thinker" and yet fail to recognize that relying on common sense is a logical fallacy, that would be a valid Dunning-Kruger situation.

If, on the other hand, one were to decide that someone else "thinks they're so smart, but they're not", that is not a valid Dunning-Kruger situation. The person has to actually declare, or self-assess, that they have superior ability.

Ha. And the Dunning-Kruger reference appears, as I predicted.
 
What misses? Where is the evidence that Obama is not a narcissist that I ignored? I think if you're going to accuse me of cherry picking, then you have the burden of showing me the cherries I left on the tree.
Earlier:
Same with the Fox News piece on Obama changing presidential bios. If you look at the primary source, none of the actual bios were changed. Most of them contain cross-linking at the bottom. A few of the cross-links have the Did You Know header and while most of those link to more modern contexts, which is largely Barack Obama, some link to other presidents or Michele Obama and Joe Biden's wife (the name escapes me). This is a case of cherry picking and confirmation bias.
This bit you found convincing ignores the fact that the bios weren't changed, the cross-linking involved other people who weren't Obama, and the ones that did involve Obama weren't that many. In other words, you picked the cherries where the cross-linking mentioned Obama's initiatives and ignored all the other times cross linking had nothing to do with Obama at all or mentioned him along with other people, which doesn't seem very narcissistic at all.

This is all assuming that Obama was the one who had the cross-links added at all.


I cited that web page as a source of links and references. I even explained that if only 20% of the links were legitimate, the compilation was pretty damning.
So far, very little of it is damning, if any. Most of it appears to be standard CT fare. I can find similar YouTube videos that prove that Michelle Obama is a man or that E.T. aliens abduct cows. That's why I keep asking which parts you find convincing.


As for Vaknin, I hadn't claimed this before, but it does in fact seem he has considerable expertise in psychology. He has written many books about narcissism, and has learned a lot from introspection because he claims to have suffered from narcissism himself.
There are a number of people who write self-help books and books on pseudoscience topics. I'm not accepting them as authorities either, nor should anyone. Writing books does not indicate that you know what you're talking about or should be considered an authority on a particular topic.


I don't think that earning a meaningless degree because you passed a handful of meaningless courses is particularly important to becoming knowledgeable about a topic. Vaknin has clearly devoted many decades to the study of narcissism and seems credible to me.
You have it the wrong way around. He is saying things that confirms your bias, thus he seems credible to you.


Look, this isn't a mathematical proof. Consider Vaknin's arguments to be my own. I have listened to them, and I agree with them, to the extent I understand what a narcissist is. You wanted evidence, and some of the evidence consists of the observations that Vaknin has made. I'm really not sure what else you could expect. Obama presumably hasn't sat for any detailed psychological testing, or, if he has, I certainly wouldn't have access to it.
I want evidence from a credible source. Something that shows a consistent pattern of behavior and does not rely on a string of logical fallacies, links to anonymous websites, and a good deal of faith in order to make it's case. I don't think that is too much to ask.


No, your style of argumentation is to stand back and slander other people's arguments with labels that you only vaguely understand. I've yet to see something interesting from you.
My style is to ask questions and review evidence. When making a claim, I do my best to check my understanding and references before making the claim. Provide evidence when asked or retract claims when I cannot.


Ha. And the Dunning-Kruger reference appears, as I predicted.
Congrats?

It doesn't make anything I said not true nor inappropriate.
 
I'm really not sure what else you could expect. Obama presumably hasn't sat for any detailed psychological testing, or, if he has, I certainly wouldn't have access to it.

I would expect valid authoritative sources, with the understanding that those sources may be disputed if new information were to come to light. For example, this article at leasts names people who are actually in the field giving their opinions, even though this article outlines why maybe they shouldn't. The difference is, these people are professionals in the field. Vaknin isn't. He carries no more weight on the subject than you or I do.
 
Earlier:

​
This bit you found convincing ignores the fact that the bios weren't changed, the cross-linking involved other people who weren't Obama, and the ones that did involve Obama weren't that many. In other words, you picked the cherries where the cross-linking mentioned Obama's initiatives and ignored all the other times cross linking had nothing to do with Obama at all or mentioned him along with other people, which doesn't seem very narcissistic at all.

This is all assuming that Obama was the one who had the cross-links added at all.

Those "Did you know" fact boxes strike me as highly inappropriate, and, yes, narcissistic. Did Obama put them there himself? No, of course not, but he sets the tone for the kind of grandiose embellishment his people have consistently applied to his administration and his persona. The same goes for having his own version of a Presidential seal and setting up Greek columns for his acceptance speech at the 2008 DNC. These are pieces in a puzzle. Evidence if you will. In any case, even if you don't agree that adding fact boxes to the bottom of the bio pages of past Presidents which tout his administration is rather graceless and tone deaf, it's hardly an example of his non-narcissism. Cherry-picking is leaving out evidence to the contrary, not advancing an (admittedly) subjective interpretation of actual data.

So far, very little of it is damning, if any. Most of it appears to be standard CT fare. I can find similar YouTube videos that prove that Michelle Obama is a man or that E.T. aliens abduct cows. That's why I keep asking which parts you find convincing.

I mentioned some already. The grandiose behavior based on few real accomplishments. The belief that he can change people's thinking and end decades of strife in troubled regions simply by speaking about his own personal history and by uttering platitudes. The high utilization rate of personal pronouns (e.g. Vaknin points out that his "pronoun density" is 3x the rate of even garden variety narcissists). There is a lot more, but as I said before, it's not all that interesting to me.

As for your disparaging analogies, I'll note Vaknin's video is quite different from the usual CT fare in that he actually just gives a reasoned interpretation of data that you can observe with your own eyes and ears. He is not requiring you to take a leap of faith or, alternatively, ask you to disbelieve the mainstream version of reality simply because there is an inconsistency here or there in that version. The claim that a politician who rises to be the President of the United States, at a relatively young age, and with relatively little political experience, by the way, is a narcissist is hardly an extraordinary one. I believe he is a narcissist, and I have given you plenty of reasons for why I believe so. I don't expect to change your mind, any more than I can expect to change a friend's mine about thinking his wife is charming.

The weird thing really is that you are so insistent on seeing evidence. When somebody makes the claim that George Bush is stupid, do I start a thread asking to see the evidence? I actually don't think he's stupid. I think he's probably one or two standard deviations above the average in IQ, and he's probably in the same ballpark as Obama actually. But I don't really care if somebody thinks he's stupid, especially now that he's out of power.

There are a number of people who write self-help books and books on pseudoscience topics. I'm not accepting them as authorities either, nor should anyone. Writing books does not indicate that you know what you're talking about or should be considered an authority on a particular topic.

And neither does having a degree in any particular field. What matters is what you can say on the subject. On the subject of narcissism, Vaknin can say quite a lot, and it makes a lot of sense to me. He states a lot of facts also. In theory, these can be cross-checked.

You have it the wrong way around. He is saying things that confirms your bias, thus he seems credible to you.

You don't know that. It's possible, but it's also possible that that's not the case. I'm hardly invested in believing Obama is a narcissist. I came to that conclusion myself, but I found it interesting that he has looked at things more quantitatively and reached the same conclusion. Some of the things he claims, I have already observed, but he puts some numbers and meat behind them.
 
I would expect valid authoritative sources, with the understanding that those sources may be disputed if new information were to come to light. For example, this article at leasts names people who are actually in the field giving their opinions, even though this article outlines why maybe they shouldn't. The difference is, these people are professionals in the field. Vaknin isn't. He carries no more weight on the subject than you or I do.

Sheesh, talk about obsession with authorities. Can't you think for yourself? Who cares who is saying something? What matters is what is said. I don't care if Sigmund Freud himself says X is a narcissist. Unless he gives me some reasons, I'm not going to be convinced.

Now, as for Trump, yes, I believe he is a narcissist. Even though your first article didn't give any good reasons for believing so, I have observed many of his narcissistic traits for myself. Always mentioning how well he's done in business is one of those things. It would be nice if somebody actually measured the rate at which he says things like that. Then it would be more analogous to Vaknin's video.
 
Sheesh, talk about obsession with authorities. Can't you think for yourself? Who cares who is saying something? What matters is what is said. I don't care if Sigmund Freud himself says X is a narcissist. Unless he gives me some reasons, I'm not going to be convinced.

You're comparing some guy with no training or expertise favorably to people who actually work in the field?

I think I now have my answer to the question from the OP.
 
Those "Did you know" fact boxes strike me as highly inappropriate, and, yes, narcissistic. Did Obama put them there himself? No, of course not, but he sets the tone for the kind of grandiose embellishment his people have consistently applied to his administration and his persona. The same goes for having his own version of a Presidential seal and setting up Greek columns for his acceptance speech at the 2008 DNC. These are pieces in a puzzle. Evidence if you will. In any case, even if you don't agree that adding fact boxes to the bottom of the bio pages of past Presidents which tout his administration is rather graceless and tone deaf, it's hardly an example of his non-narcissism...The grandiose behavior based on few real accomplishments. The belief that he can change people's thinking and end decades of strife in troubled regions simply by speaking about his own personal history and by uttering platitudes. The high utilization rate of personal pronouns (e.g. Vaknin points out that his "pronoun density" is 3x the rate of even garden variety narcissists). There is a lot more, but as I said before, it's not all that interesting to me...

Finally after all this time you are citing what you consider the evidence for Obama's narcissism.

  1. Obama's "people" have applied grandiose embellishment to his administration.
  2. Has his own version of the Presidential seal.
  3. Set up Greek columns for his acceptance speech at the 2008 DNC.
  4. Thinks he can change people's thinking simply by speaking about his own personal history.
  5. Thinks he can end decades of strife in troubled regions by uttering platitudes.
  6. His speech has a high rate of personal pronouns.

The person you are citing as the source for all this is not a psycholigist, has himself suffered mental health issues, has a criminal record (stock fraud), served time in an Israeli prison and is himself a self-identified narcissist. Dr. Sam Vaknin has never met Barack Obama in person, correct? Only knows him from watching Obama on TV and following him in the news?

Objectively that's not really a terrific source. And what happened to "thin-skinned?"

But at least this is finally being discussed in an open way.
 

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