Obama got Pwned. Again.

Because the law of supply and demand evaporate when taxes are raised? I don't claim that increased costs (in accounting taxes are a cost) are never a basis for increasing prices. It's the categorical claim that they will always be passed on that I object to. I was a manager for a company that would often attempt to pass costs on to the consumer. However, if the market wouldn't bear the increase... well, we had to lower the prices again. It's really that simple. Increased taxes aren't a magic genie that obviate market forces.

Look, do you really think that people who are in charge of prices base those in part on kindness or simply costs (costs can and do influence prices)? No, prices are based on what the market will bear (there are laws that cap rents, so I will concede that rent caps (typically 2 - 5% a year IIRC) often keep the prices artificially low) Now, if the applicable laws allow for rent increase due to a tax increase then it is very likely that is what will happen. Consult your local laws.

That said, again, costs can influence prices for many reasons but costs will never obviate the law of supply and demand.

The only things that get in the way of classical supply and demand are where there is a lesser-preferred good that substitutes, and then your equations get complex... But in the present issue, that isn't a consideration.
 
Sales tax: be frugal.
Property taxes: If you rent, as many poor do, slapping taxes on the landlords (those making >250k) will not help because the landlord will be forced to raise rent.
Communication taxes? Over the top cell phones are not a necessity. Get the cheapest phone possible or pool with others.

Lovely sentiment but unrealistic. "be frugal" sounds good, but many people spend 100% of every paycheck before the next one arrives, just to exist. We're not talking about boats and golf clubs either, we're talking about diapers and gasoline. Thus, 100% of their paycheck is subjected to some level or another of sales or excise tax.
 
Actually, the title should be the American people got pwned.

I'm not strictly against tax increases, but to gain ground there should also be significant cuts along with them.

From what I've seen this bill does neither. All it looks like to me is more Washington handwaving. The... "we are going to have a bipartisan committee blah,blah,blah" where nothing will actually get done.

Meanwhile the debt ceiling is rasied yet again. And at this I guess I'm supposed to be happy.
 
It closed up. :) I just want to say that unlike Limbaugh I want America to succeed no matter who is in power.

I dont think that's what he said actually.

I think he said he hopes Obama fails, refering to his policies.

Which is completely different.
 
I dont think that's what he said actually.

I think he said he hopes Obama fails, refering to his policies.

Which is completely different.
"Completely"? What exactly are a presidents policies for? The failure of America? If I want the business policies of a CEO to fail, what exactly am I hoping for?
 
"Completely"? What exactly are a presidents policies for? The failure of America? If I want the business policies of a CEO to fail, what exactly am I hoping for?
If a policy is seen as counterproductive or socialist or similar, one could want the policy, it's passage, or implementation to fail, without wanting the country to fail.
 
If a policy is seen as counterproductive or socialist or similar, one could want the policy, it's passage, or implementation to fail, without wanting the country to fail.
I see the point.

"... or socialist..."

You mean like the military? Like public education? Like govt? Like the US Highway System?

Dude, seriously, "socialist" isn't a pejorative word. It isn't axiomatic to evil. That reminds me of the Republicans that took the Senate. They were all dead set against socialism... until of course, they found out how much their states benefited. Then hey, well, NOT THAT socialism.

Give it up. We are ALL socialists now. The propaganda and fear tactics of tying to socialism to communism are so 1950s. Socialism and capitalism are NOT mutually exclusive thing. They never have been. America has always been, to some degree, socialist. So long as you support the notion that govt should "provide for the common defense" then you, are a socialist.

That said, I find the idea cynical. If someone said they wanted Bush to fail, well, what was it that Bush was trying to do? I'd find that cynical also. It's partisan and polemic. It's what ensures little gets done in Washington. It's why other nations are passing us up.
 
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RandFan... thank you for your posts in this thread. I found your point of view to be refreshing.
 
I see the point.

"... or socialist..."

You mean like the military? Like public education? Like govt? Like the US Highway System?

Dude, seriously, "socialist" isn't a pejorative word. It isn't axiomatic to evil. That reminds me of the Republicans that took the Senate. They were all dead set against socialism... until of course, they found out how much their states benefited. Then hey, well, NOT THAT socialism.
No need to rant to me on the benefits of some of our collective, socialistic institutions and how ironic supporting medicare is with being against other socialistic efforts. I was just showing you how it is rational to say that you want something to fail but still be in favor of the bigger picture.
 
No need to rant to me on the benefits of some of our collective, socialistic institutions
Well, you did use socialist in a pejorative fashion. But fair enough

and how ironic supporting medicare is with being against other socialistic efforts.
You have me at a disadvantage, come again?

I was just showing you how it is rational to say that you want something to fail but still be in favor of the bigger picture..
It's cynical. I live in a democracy. I can see myself saying, "I hope certain policies fail". It's the blanket statement that leaves a distaste in my mouth. I grew up a staundh conservative. A big Limbaugh fan. I bought his books and watched his TV show. I'm just really tired of all the cynacism and demonizing of the opposition. I hated the partisanship against Reagan and Bush. Much of it was hateful and spiteful. Now that Obama is in office it's the same crap just a different home team. (we're number 1!). Reagan would have never been so spiteful.

It gets old. I wish we could grow up as a species.
 
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What? You seriously have me confused with someone else. I've no idea what you are on about. (eta did I say something about the debt ceiling extortion? I don't remember and can't find it. If so then I stand by that. That's pretty easy to defend but it wasn't what was on my mind when I ventured into this thread.).

Clinton: Dramatically lower spending.
Bush: Dramatically higher spending.
Solution: Hold the economy hostage as soon as a Democrat takes office. Nice.

What's the logic here?
That the Bush admin was incompetent and spent money we didn't have on war we didn't need.

That is... unrelated to what I challenged you on. So again, I ask, what's the logic here?

Or have you simply forgotten what you posted?

No, it doesn't. Asserting that it does won't help the discussion either.

You asked me a specific question. I provided an answer. Whether or not you LIKE the answer doesn't change the fact that it's an answer to your question. And if you don't care about an answer to your question, you shouldn't have asked it.

Is your only defense of Bush to point out the sins of Obama?

Except, of course, that I'm NOT defending Bush. And pointing out what Obama is doing wrong needs no external justification. Unlike Bush, he's still in office. And unlike Bush, he can (and probably will) run for that office again. So what he does, and what he does wrong, is of considerable interest for its own sake. Why is that not obvious?

I'm saying we are stuck on stupid. The GOP will defend tax cuts period. As David Stockman says it has become a religious belief. If the economy doesn't do well then by god just keep lowering those taxes.

Sounds a lot like Krugman and the stimulus. If government spending didn't fix the economy, then it wasn't big enough.

Again, the sins of Obama make the war okay?

Obviously not, nor did I make any such claim. But this is off topic. I'm not going to rehash the Iraq war here.

What are you talking about? I don't remember saying this.

Clinton: Dramatically lower spending.
Bush: Dramatically higher spending.
Solution: Hold the economy hostage as soon as a Democrat takes office. Nice.

I don't for a moment believe that the GOP wants the economy to do badly.

Your above quote certainly implies that.

I think the GOP is has blinders on and is doubling down on failed policies. Holding our credit hostage (yes I'm saying it now) was asinine without any willingness to compromise on tax raises. They won. The corporations got what they think was best for them. I don't think the American people did though. Have you sen the stock market yesterday and today?

Both parties are trying to double down on their policies. Did the stock market tank because the Republicans got some of what they wanted? Or did it tank because the Democrats got some of what they wanted? Obviously the market doesn't like the deal, but that doesn't tell us why they don't like the deal.

The GOP made disastrous policy decisions that have devastated our economy. Whatever Obama did won't change that.

He can further devastate it. Which... he's been doing.

Again, I'm not happy about how Bush handled the economy. He was not a fiscal conservative at all. But Obama has been an unmitigated disaster. And again, unlike Bush, we will face the question of whether or not to reelect him. So the question of how Obama is doing is a hell of a lot more important right now than the question of how Bush did. And he's doing terrible. I don't know how anyone can honestly conclude otherwise.
 
That is... unrelated to what I challenged you on. So again, I ask, what's the logic here?
I answered you. If you don't like the answer then perhaps you shouldn't ask the question.

Sounds a lot like Krugman and the stimulus. If government spending didn't fix the economy, then it wasn't big enough.
Unresponsive. What should the tax rate be and what is the basis for the rate? If we did better with Clinton's tax rate then why should we stick with Bush's rate?

So the question of how Obama is doing is a hell of a lot more important right now than the question of how Bush did. And he's doing terrible.
Can you give me some specifics? He didn't raise taxes. So the whole "lower taxes" thing hasn't worked out much, has it? I'm supposing you want to keep going with that, right?

How do you know Obama has been a disaster? I say lowering taxes has failed and people tell me that I can't know that. Okay, how do YOU know? How do we know that the wars and spending haven't devastated our economy far worse than Obama ever could? You don't want to rehash the war. Nice. Real nice. WE HAVE TO PAY FOR IT! You can't wave your hand and have that liability disappear. The VA bills. Injured soldiers. Survivor benefits. I'm sorry you don't like the war but it has been a very big commitment and a damn big drain that is sucking up money still. It isn't going away.
 
Solution: Hold the economy hostage as soon as a Democrat takes office. Nice.
I don't for a moment believe that the GOP wants the economy to do badly.

Your above quote certainly implies that.

A.) I concede that I said that. I was angry and conflated things.
B.) Being stupid isn't the same as wanting to fail or doing badly.
 
Well, you did use socialist in a pejorative fashion. But fair enough
I said if a policy was seen as socialist, which I assumed may have been where Limbaugh was coming from when all that came out. I can't remember the details of that event, other than some complaints that he wanted America to fail.
 
I answered you. If you don't like the answer then perhaps you shouldn't ask the question.

No. It isn't a question of me not liking your answer, your answer wasn't an answer at all. It did not answer the question. It was a non sequitor.

If we did better with Clinton's tax rate then why should we stick with Bush's rate?

I never said we should stick with Bush's tax rate.

But I would love to go back to Clinton's spending. Do you disagree? Would you like to have Clinton's tax rates but Bush's spending? Would you like to have Clinton's tax rate and Obama's spending?

Can you give me some specifics? He didn't raise taxes.

But he increased spending. And like I said before, the spending is ultimately the problem, because we pay for that one way or another. I'm not fixated on specific tax rates, because if spending isn't controlled, it won't matter what the tax rate is.

So the whole "lower taxes" thing hasn't worked out much, has it? I'm supposing you want to keep going with that, right?

I'm surprised you conclude that when I never said it.

How do you know Obama has been a disaster?

Um... have you looked around lately? Two and a half years into Obama's presidency, and how are we doing? A year after the Summer of Recovery, and how's that recovery coming along?

I say lowering taxes has failed

Maybe it has. That doesn't mean increasing spending will succeed. It's not a dichotomy.

How do we know that the wars and spending haven't devastated our economy far worse than Obama ever could?

If Bush's massive spending increases have devastated the economy, then isn't it rather normal to conclude that further, more massive increases will do even more damage? You're not really making a case for Obama at all. All you're doing is blaming Bush. Which, if it makes you feel better, go ahead. I'm not trying to defend Bush. I already said I didn't think he did a good job, so I don't know why you continue to argue as if I was defending him. But you are trying to defend Obama, but without defending what he's actually done. Which, BTW, doesn't include raising taxes. So even from the liberal perspective that Bush's tax cuts were the problem, Obama is still a failure. What's the metric by which he isn't?

You don't want to rehash the war. Nice. Real nice. WE HAVE TO PAY FOR IT!

And the money is due whether it was justified or not. So your attempts to focus on an old fight about its justifications is irrelevant to the economic questions we now face. It's off topic.
 

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