As is Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. They are not perfect allies, but allies nonetheless.
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Obama: Enemy of Humanity
- Thread starter GreyICE
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As is Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. They are not perfect allies, but allies nonetheless.
Darth Rotor
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While I was disappointed in their ultimate decision, they have to live in that neighborhood. I appreciate their political dilemma.
Your kilt sale is a fail.
That is one of the stupidest things I've ever seen you post.
Since you are not using facts, I wonder at why you demand I change my use of facts to suit your opinions?
No dice, Marc.
@ parky
Israel is a pretty good ally to have in the Mid East, at least Israel has been for some time. Their value decreased as soon as the Wall went down, however. That value is still substantial, well greater than zero.
For example, Israel is a better ally than Kuwait, even though Kuwait is far more pliable than either Israel or Turkey, for example.
DR
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Take the weekend to study US-Turkish relations before you post, again.
Your posts really show no insight, whatsoever.
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
Does a scotsman wear a kilt?
Nice citation, points for evidence
yes please lets have some facts?
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
Darth Rotor
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Silly boy. I worked for a Turkish flag officer in NATO for three years, and researched Turkey in NATO before I went over there, and you have the gall to pretend you have a better grasp on our security relationship that I do?
Magua speak US-Turkish security relationshops very well.
Go back to your sandbox and play with the other children.
DR
Darth Rotor
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Of course, our kilt wearing allies are so pliable!No NO NO, allies always do what we want and never ask questions!
That is why my ESM display was lit up by an Israeli FC radar in the Eastern Med. (The Sovs did that more often, obviously, with Hawk Screech and Owl Screech.)
That is why Israel sold AEW radar tech to effing Chinese in violation of our formal agreement on that.
That is why Japan sold tech to the Sovs for propeller milling, tech that put gen III and IV SSNs below a certain acousting threshold.
That is why our dear allies the French ... oh never mind.
Allies are like family: ya can't live with them, you can't live without them.
(To be fair to both Sov and Israelis in the first example, it was most likely operator training. )
DR
This was before you were elected Turkish PM, right? LOL.
Darth Rotor
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Eating the sand again, I see.
Whatever, Mr. Prime Minister. LOL
Darth Rotor
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I first learned of ISR/TUR military relationships in 1997. In order to bring you up to speed, I suggest you consider the following:
Turkey was the first "Muslim" nation to recognize the state of Israel, in 1948.
Second, learn a bit about your own nation's history.
Third, the hundreds of millions in contracts that funded Israelis upgrades of Turkish weapons systems - F-4, F-5, M-60, and so on - and the more recent project that may see Arrow missiles deployed to/sold to Turkey to provide for some Ballistic Missile defense suggests that Israel and Turkey have a common interest in dealing with some of the Arab regimes in their neighborhood. I am guessing that this common interest also includes the Persians, but will need to find a better source than what I offer you for a quick review of some of the highlights of Turkish/Israeli ups and downs vis a vis their political relationship.
(Pay particular attention to the Turkish position at Rabat, 1969).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–Turkey_relations
There are some things there I don't see, but no matter, there is plenty of meat for you to chew on. Like other allies, TUR and ISR have their ups and downs with each other.
As to Turkey as our ally, they have been in NATO with us for over fifty years. (Of course, the old joke in NATO was that we invited both Greece and Turkey into NATO as a peacekeeping measure, and their acceptance is all that prevented a war between the two of them for ... the last fifty years!
Maybe it isn't a joke ... )For example, we based military forces in Turkey next to Northern Iraq in the post Desert Storm operation Provide Comfort, during which we gave aid to Kurds and enforced a no fly zone over Iraq, thanks to Turkey's being our good and true ally.
If you are going to argue that Turkey's decision to not acts as conduit for the 4th ID into Northern Iraq was in some way an act of disloyalty, I'll counter with this. I was very disappointed, as it made the original plan a hell of a lot harder to pull off. (The war would have been over a heck of a lot faster had that option been available.) From the Turkish side were two critical concerns: the internal political concern that Turkish government was being anti Islamic by allowing Turkey to be used in Bush's War on Islam (as some portrayed it) and the inescapable fact that the Kurdish problems in Turkey were likely to get far more complicated when Saddam went down, and it was in the Turk's own interest not to aid and abet that, they had plenty of trouble with Kurds already, thanks. As I stated earlier, the Turks have to live in that neighborhood, we don't.
I won't waste anymore time.
To remind you what you were wrong about.
You pretend Israel is America's only "true" ally in the Mid East.
You are still wrong, but Israel is certainly our ally. For better and worse, the relationship still benefits both of our nations as of this writing.
DR
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I first learned of ISR/TUR military relationships in 1997. In order to bring you up to speed, I suggest you consider the following:
Turkey was the first "Muslim" nation to recognize the state of Israel, in 1948.
Second, learn a bit about your own nation's history.
Third, the hundreds of millions in contracts that funded Israelis upgrades of Turkish weapons systems - F-4, F-5, M-60, and so on - and the more recent project that may see Arrow missiles deployed to/sold to Turkey to provide for some Ballistic Missile defense suggests that Israel and Turkey have a common interest in dealing with some of the Arab regimes in their neighborhood. I am guessing that this common interest also includes the Persians, but will need to find a better source than what I offer you for a quick review of some of the highlights of Turkish/Israeli ups and downs vis a vis their political relationship.
(Pay particular attention to the Turkish position at Rabat, 1969).
, an act which is
As to Turkey as our ally, they have been in NATO with us for over fifty years. (Of course, the old joke in NATO was that we invited both Greece and Turkey into NATO as a peacekeeping measure, and their acceptance is all that prevented a war between the two of them for ... the last fifty years!
For example, we based military forces in Turkey next to Northern Iraq in the post Desert Storm operation Provide Comfort, during which we gave aid to Kurds and enforced a no fly zone over Iraq, thanks to Turkey's being our good and true ally.
I won't waste anymore time. I also want to remind you what you were wrong about.
You pretend Israel is America's only "true" ally in the Mid East.
You are still wrong, but Israel is certainly our ally. For better and worse, that still benefits both of our nations as of this writing.
DR
Do you prefer the turkey drumstick? And, do you like giblet gravy? That's about the extent of any knowledge of turkey. Great avatar
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Darth Rotor
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Translation:Do you prefer the turkey drumstick? And, do you like giblet gravy? That's about the extent of any knowledge of turkey. Great avatar
I, Marc39, just got PWNED again.
DR
DR, thanks for the accurate and interesting summary of Turkish/US relations.
Turkey has been a good ally to the US, and while they've hardly supported every decision we make slavishly, they've consistently provided us with support abroad and worked hard to incorperate US interests into their plans as best as possible. We, in turn, have not been bad allies to them at all, and it saddens me to see ignorance on both sides (yes, there are ignorant Turks too) threaten what has been a profitable and warm relationship for both countries since World War 2 (and, honestly, really Ataturk, who was very strongly in favor of Western/American ideas and influences).
This is not to say I entirely agree with every policy of that nation, but I have spent months over there, and I'd have to say I saw burkas about as frequently as bikinis, for those who think it's a fundamentalist Islamic state like Saudi Arabia.
Turkey has been a good ally to the US, and while they've hardly supported every decision we make slavishly, they've consistently provided us with support abroad and worked hard to incorperate US interests into their plans as best as possible. We, in turn, have not been bad allies to them at all, and it saddens me to see ignorance on both sides (yes, there are ignorant Turks too) threaten what has been a profitable and warm relationship for both countries since World War 2 (and, honestly, really Ataturk, who was very strongly in favor of Western/American ideas and influences).
This is not to say I entirely agree with every policy of that nation, but I have spent months over there, and I'd have to say I saw burkas about as frequently as bikinis, for those who think it's a fundamentalist Islamic state like Saudi Arabia.
Yeah, this is pretty bad. Of course it was a candid reaction to Michael Steele's speech, which doesn't excuse it, but might explain it (Steele's speech was... unique. Even the GOP might back off on that one).
I think the fallout from this is going to get really, really rough. Criticizing a sitting President for winning a peace prize (especially the language Steele used) is not going to ride well.
The first shot has been fired back, and now its time to see who says stop, and who jumps in. So far McCain has shown class, and Obama has shown class, and most of the rest have shown... err... yeah.
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Praktik
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I re-read this page here and I guess I missed the part where Turkey was accused of not being a "real" ally because it didnt allow US troop deployments during the war.
One point that Darth Rotor didn't bring up in his excellent posts on the subject is the fact that that Turkish population was over 90% against the government participating in the war by allowing its territory to be used by the US.
As such, the decision not to provide this type of assistance to the US was a truly democratic outcome. People who castigated Turkey for not participating more directly were essentially advocating that its government ignore the will of the people.
One point that Darth Rotor didn't bring up in his excellent posts on the subject is the fact that that Turkish population was over 90% against the government participating in the war by allowing its territory to be used by the US.
As such, the decision not to provide this type of assistance to the US was a truly democratic outcome. People who castigated Turkey for not participating more directly were essentially advocating that its government ignore the will of the people.
Turkey is not "truly a democracy" It's also becoming radicalized by Muslim extremists who have contributed to the climate of pervasive anti-Americanism that just might have some link to its relations with the US.